2024 US Presidential Election Thread

[eran0004]

This one's not nearly so unhinged, instead just stupid and pathetic.

Why does he want to remove the referee?

 

[McLaren]

As far as I can tell, “reportedly” Imane is a Female. According to her passport she’s a female.

But being that Algeria’s treatment and “recognition” of LGBTQ’s is dubious at best, I would also expect the same level of transparency.

You think she would go on the world stage pretending to be a woman for a country that would arrest her given gender changing is forbidden by law?

That would be incredibly dumb on her part. But sure, this is "reportedly" a female in a country that would punish her & her family.

it’s still not a level playing field to have testosterone levels that of a man, while playing woman sports. Just like a man cannot take steroids to gain an advantage in the Olympics

IOC spokesman Mark Adams said everyone taking part in the women's event "was complying competition eligibility rules".

"These athletes have competed many times before many years, they haven't just arrived, they competed in Tokyo," he said.

"Testosterone is not a perfect test. Many women can have testosterone which is in what would be called 'male levels' and still be women, still compete as women," he said.

"This idea that suddenly you do one test for testosterone and that sorts everything out - not the case, I'm afraid," he added.

"I hope we're all agreed that we're not calling for people to go back to the bad old days of sex testing, which was a terrible thing to do".

Explained: What 'high levels of testosterone' means amid gender row in boxing at Paris Olympics | Paris Olympics 2024 News - Times of India

Paris Olympics 2024 News: Imane Khelif of Algeria won her opening Olympic boxing bout on Thursday when opponent Angela Carini of Italy quit after just 46 seconds. Khelif was di

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

She's won & lost to women over her career. She fought only 2 fighters in the 2020 Olympics; 1 win, 1 loss. Sounds like she's on a level playing field just fine.

Your honest "opinion" is just failure to Google all this for yourself & therefore, I'm not going to continue this discussion. It's all laid out in front of you; if you still don't believe she's a biological woman who produces her own naturally high levels of testosterone & yet still isn't dominating her way through women's boxing, then that's your own issue.

I'm sure if you ever meet her, you can ask to verify her womanhood for yourself. Don't know how that'd go with her fighting for a living, though.

 

[Meythia]

Why does he want to remove the referee?

I am more worried that he refers to boxing as a womens sport.

 

[Joey D]

Isn't the issue less about what the Republicans are trying to make it (that Khelif is male) and more about her testosterone levels being higher than what's allowable? If there's a standard set for testosterone levels, then adhere to it. It doesn't make Khelif a man or transgender, it just means her labs show that she's outside the allowable limits. Boxing especially limits people by all sorts of biological markers.

Also, didn't the Olympics allow a male-to-female athlete compete in like weight lifting or something as long as her testosterone was under a certain level?

 

[Blitz24]

Isn't the issue less about what the Republicans are trying to make it (that Khelif is male) and more about her testosterone levels being higher than what's allowable? If there's a standard set for testosterone levels, then adhere to it. It doesn't make Khelif a man or transgender, it just means her labs show that she's outside the allowable limits. Boxing especially limits people by all sorts of biological markers.

Also, didn't the Olympics allow a male-to-female athlete compete in like weight lifting or something as long as her testosterone was under a certain level?

The Fox News story (which I heard in passing because someone in my family was watching it) was an own goal. They stated that the women had been banned from competitions in the past because they had "male chromosomes" but at the same time said the women had also passed IOC genitalia exams. Apparently they have detachable male genitalia or got someone who looks like them to take the exam.

 

[AlexWilmot]

Also, didn't the Olympics allow a male-to-female athlete compete in like weight lifting or something as long as her testosterone was under a certain level?

Laurel Hubbard, in 1998 set a Mens New Zealand Junior record of 300kg total, in 2001 they stopped lifting in general due to pressures of fitting in the world.
Laurel began Hormone treatment in 2012, competed in 2017 in the Female category and was 20kg under their old Mens Junior total record, other competitions they scored even lower, sometimes not even scoring anything in the Snatch so the competition result was a DNF.

To lose 20kg on your total is quite a lot since going from junior to senior age groups, you should be scoring your best totals in the senior category.

 

[McLaren]

Isn't the issue less about what the Republicans are trying to make it (that Khelif is male) and more about her testosterone levels being higher than what's allowable? If there's a standard set for testosterone levels, then adhere to it. It doesn't make Khelif a man or transgender, it just means her labs show that she's outside the allowable limits. Boxing especially limits people by all sorts of biological markers.

Also, didn't the Olympics allow a male-to-female athlete compete in like weight lifting or something as long as her testosterone was under a certain level?

It depends on the source. I'm pretty sure Fox had a correspondent from England that straight up said she was a man. Another segment, they had on a black multi-champion who said the same & gave a contradicting statement to Times. It's gotten so dumb, people started questioning Katie Ledecky & others.


One of our rugby stars made the headlines a day or so ago being brought to tears b/c she was also accused of being a man based on how she looks.

Olympics rugby star Ilona Maher brought to tears by sexist attacks - Outsports

Ilona Maher has been an Olympic hero in Paris, yet she and other female athletes struggle with attacks calling them men.

www.outsports.com

It's so stupid b/c half of these people are going on about protecting women, yet hurt them with the baseless accusations.

Imane's testosterone isn't an issue, either. It's acknowledged & been deemed ok everywhere but 1 boxing outlet. She's won & lost multiple times. The only thing that kicked this off was b/c Carini threw in the towel after getting punched in the nose & said, "I've never been hit so hard in my life". But she never attacked Imane. She wished her luck.

“I wish her to carry on until the end and that she can be happy. I am someone who doesn’t judge anyone. I am not here to give judgements,” Carini said.

But, someone took that initial statement whilst looking at Imane and ran with it. It's just another thing for conservatives to pretend they care about so they can vilify LGBT people over someone whose not even part of that community (or can't be by her country's laws).

 

[Duke]

Average human is conformist and not too comfortable with idea of saying unpopular opinions, even to faceless poller.

Yeah, because if there is one thing that the internet has proven: People won't say offensive things, even anonymously.

Oh, wait.

 

[inCloud]

internet

phone polls

ok

 

[Duke]

ok

So what? A random person calls. You're even less likely to ever interact with that same person again than you are with a random username on a forum.

 

[UKMikey]

Kyle Rittenhouse has endorsed Ron Paul's nomination to MAGA howls of dismay.

 

[Danoff]

Regarding Imane Khelif,

If she has a y chromosome (which according to wikipedia she may have), and makes high levels of testosterone, it is fair to question whether she belongs in the women's category, regardless of wins and losses. She could be dead last in the women's category and a y chromosome with elevated levels of testosterone could be grounds for disqualification - and in fact she has been disqualified in the past over those very issues.

I don't think it's helpful to avoid the fact that this is a difficult case, and in general not an easy issue for women's sports. It's also not helpful to treat is as a culture war and call her a man and claim to know that she has no business there without any facts. She appears, based on her wikipedia article, to be an edge case. And edge cases are likely to be more competitive.

 

[Fezzik]

 

[Danoff]

If you must know, since you apparently don't want to look up the wikipedia page, it references a statement made by the international boxing association president claiming that she was tested and found to have a y chromosome. I mentioned "if" because I'm not sure that's enough proof for me.

 

[Famine]

If she has a y chromosome (which according to wikipedia she may have), and makes high levels of testosterone

Problem is... this appears to be a retcon by one individual: IBA's president Umar Kremlev.

From what I've seen, the approximate sequence of events and people is:

*Russia-based organising body AIBA faces allegations of corruption and match-fixing at 2016 Olympics
*IOC bans AIBA from organising boxing at 2020 Olympics
*Khelif represents Algeria at 2020 Olympics without issue (and not spectacular results)
*AIBA becomes IBA
*Khelif reaches final of (Russia-based organising body) IBA world championship in 2022, is beaten by Irish woman
*Khelif reaches final of IBA world championship in 2023
*IBA's Russian president disqualifies her (and another boxer) over unspecified "eligibility" test at unspecified laboratory
*IBA president affirms she also failed in 2022, but it was too late to disqualify her (what? Lance Armstrong was stripped of a 14-year old title!)
*IBA board ratifies decision on eve of final
*IBA board also calls for standardised gender testing in same meeting
*IOC claims IBA attitude has shifted from uncooperative to hostile and abusive
*IBA president subsequently claims Khelif has a Y chromosome, without confirming the eligibility test
*IBA president states IOC official in charge of boxing through to 2017 is a criminal who should be shot
*IOC strips IBA of organising body status over "governance, finance and corruption concerns"
*IBA president subsequently claims Khelif has high testosterone levels, without confirming the eligibility test. These would be two different tests.
*Khelif represents Algeria at 2024 Olympics

 

[TheCracker]

If she was blowing the competition away it would be worth looking at, but her record is 38 wins and 9 loses, they're not fantastic stats by any means.

If she wants to box competitively where does she get the chance to do that? - she'd have no chance against actual men. Paralympics? - are chromosome anomolies classed as a disability?

 

[Danoff]

Problem is... this appears to be a retcon by one individual: IBA's president Umar Kremlev.

From what I've seen, the approximate sequence of events and people is:

*Russia-based organising body AIBA faces allegations of corruption and match-fixing at 2016 Olympics
*IOC bans AIBA from organising boxing at 2020 Olympics
*Khelif represents Algeria at 2020 Olympics without issue (and not spectacular results)
*AIBA becomes IBA
*Khelif reaches final of (Russia-based organising body) IBA world championship in 2022, is beaten by Irish woman
*Khelif reaches final of IBA world championship in 2023
*IBA's Russian president disqualifies her (and another boxer) over unspecified "eligibility" test at unspecified laboratory
*IBA president affirms she also failed in 2022, but it was too late to disqualify her (what? Lance Armstrong was stripped of a 14-year old title!)
*IBA board ratifies decision on eve of final
*IBA board also calls for standardised gender testing in same meeting
*IOC claims IBA attitude has shifted from uncooperative to hostile and abusive
*IBA president subsequently claims Khelif has a Y chromosome, without confirming the eligibility test
*IBA president states IOC official in charge of boxing through to 2017 is a criminal who should be shot
*IOC strips IBA of organising body status over "governance, finance and corruption concerns"
*IBA president subsequently claims Khelif has high testosterone levels, without confirming the eligibility test. These would be two different tests.
*Khelif represents Algeria at 2024 Olympics

I'm sure that confidentiality of medical information also weighs on cases like this. The public may not be allowed to know the facts if the individual doesn't want it released. And I'm not advocating that this be changed.

If she was blowing the competition away it would be worth looking at, but her record is 38 wins and 9 loses, they're not fantastic stats by any means.

If she wants to box competitively where does she get the chance to do that? - she'd have no chance against actual men. Paralympics? - are chromosome anomolies classed as a disability?

That would be up to the IOC. I don't see why it's relevant whether she's winning too much, and I think this is red herring for all of these issues. What's relevant is whether she has a competitive advantage that is outside of a reasonable set of rules for the sport. That's it.

 

[Meythia]

If she wants to box competitively where does she get the chance to do that?

In my opinion, we should simply accept that sport is inherently unfair because some people will always be born with bodies that are simply superior to the field they participate in, that is just the story of "raw talent" in a different perspective.
If there is too much seperation by any metric, this will end in some of them being quite lonely.

 

[Danoff]

In my opinion, we should simply accept that sport is inherently unfair because some people will always be born with bodies that are simply superior to the field they participate in, that is just the story of "raw talent" in a different perspective.

Yes, sport is inherently unfair. Women's brackets attempt to make a very lopsided playing field a little less lopsided and more interesting. But they have this one challenge regarding who exactly qualifies for the women's bracket. There will be edge cases, and they will be difficult, which is why thoughtful regulations for the bracket are important and clear evaluation for the regulations matter.

Why is everyone trying so hard to overthink this?

 

[Famine]

I'm sure that confidentiality of medical information also weighs on cases like this.

Indeed, but this all appears to be one guy.

He personally banned Khelif (on the eve of facing a Chinese boxer in her final) for failing an unspecified test conducted by an unspecified laboratory, which he's subsequently claimed is two different tests and an unspecified examination. All the claims about why she failed eligibility - which conflict - are from him.


This is of course the future that the christofascists have been aiming for. A woman who's good at sports - too good for a woman - is obviously not a woman, and in order to "protect" women who are an allowable amount of good at sports, all women right down to girls in high-school sports must be subject to invasive and degrading examinations to prove their womanhood. And we've already seen them saying that it's gay to find even those who have proven themselves as women attractive because their athletic bodies aren't womanly enough for them.

The outcome is either women stop doing sports because they don't want to be subjected to that and/or there's a steady stream of kids for sports coaches (already in the top five groups of people most likely to abuse children, higher if you exclude family members) to "examine".

Since the christofascists want children to abuse and women to know their place, it's a win-win for them.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Why is everyone trying so hard to overthink this?

Moreover, why are we doing it in the US presidential election thread?

 

[TheCracker]

What's relevant is whether she has a competitive advantage that is outside of a reasonable set of rules for the sport. That's it.

Exactly, and her record, at least so far, has shown she appears to have no competitive advantage.

 

[Fezzik]

Moreover, why are we doing it in the US presidential election thread?

because the big orange baby eagerly jumped on the bandwagon

 

[Liquid]

Moreover, why are we doing it in the US presidential election thread?

Kamala Harris must be close to being a man.

/s

 

[TheCracker]

This is of course the future that the christofascists have been aiming for. A woman who's good at sports - too good for a woman - is obviously not a woman, and in order to "protect" women who are an allowable amount of good at sports, all women right down to girls in high-school sports must be subject to invasive and degrading examinations to prove their womanhood.

The outcome is either women stop doing sports because they don't want to be subjected to that and/or there's a steady stream of kids for sports coaches (already in the top five groups of people most likely to abuse children, higher if you exclude family members) to "examine".

Fine. As long as men/boys who are an allowable amount of bad at sports are subject to invasive and degrading exams too. Just to make sure they're not actually women.

 

[Danoff]

Indeed, but this all appears to be one guy.

He personally banned Khelif (on the eve of facing a Chinese boxer in her final) for failing an unspecified test conducted by an unspecified laboratory, which he's subsequently claimed is two different tests and an unspecified examination. All the claims about why she failed eligibility - which conflict - are from him.


This is of course the future that the christofascists have been aiming for. A woman who's good at sports - too good for a woman - is obviously not a woman, and in order to "protect" women who are an allowable amount of good at sports, all women right down to girls in high-school sports must be subject to invasive and degrading examinations to prove their womanhood. And we've already seen them saying that it's gay to find even those who have proven themselves as women attractive because their athletic bodies aren't womanly enough for them.

The outcome is either women stop doing sports because they don't want to be subjected to that and/or there's a steady stream of kids for sports coaches (already in the top five groups of people most likely to abuse children, higher if you exclude family members) to "examine".

Since the christofascists want children to abuse and women to know their place, it's a win-win for them.

Well I don't think genital examination is even remotely appropriate for determining who has a competitive advantage.

It's one guy, but it's the president of the IBA, which does make some difference because that guy presumably represents others. I agree that it's suspicious and shouldn't be considered the final word on the subject. I think it's relevant to the discussion, though, that this particular boxer has been dq'd in the past for violating these rules. Whether that DQ was fair or not is up for discussion, and whether that boxer conforms to current rules makes a lot of difference. I gather that this boxer conforms to IOC rules, which only leaves open a discussion of whether IOC rules are good.

Moreover, why are we doing it in the US presidential election thread?

Because US republicans make everything political for some reason.

Exactly, and her record, at least so far, has shown she appears to have no competitive advantage.

Wins and losses are not how that's shown. It'd be the IOC regulations for being a legitimate entrant into the bracket. If someone is the wrong weight for a weight class, you don't say "well they're not winning so it's ok". If they don't meet appropriate criteria to compete, they don't get to compete. This should happen before competition, and indeed in this case it did. It only leaves open whether the IOC regulations are appropriate.


Edit:

After much searching, I can only find that the olympics appears to be using passports to determine gender - effectively punting on the issue entirely. I gather there must be testosterone limits for female athletes in the doping requirements somewhere.

Edit 2:

Ok so below 10 nmol/L or some kind of medical condition which results in testosterone insensitivity appears to be the rule. And this would allow some (few) men to compete, because it includes the lowest natural testosterone levels for healthy men.

 

[Yard_Sale]

Being that these sort of issues are seemingly going to keep coming up in the future, the Olympic committee would be smart to just throw in the towel and rename the different categories into the “Women” and “Open” categories.

Wanna call yourself a “women”? Fine, whatever. If you have the genetic markers of a man, you get the opportunity to compete in the appropriate category

 

[Danoff]

Being that these sort of issues are seemingly going to keep coming up in the future, the Olympic committee would be smart to just throw in the towel and rename the different categories into the “Women” and “Open” categories.

Seems fine to me, but it doesn't solve the problem of who gets to compete in the women's bracket.

Wanna call yourself a “women”? Fine, whatever. If you have the genetic markers of a man, you get the opportunity to compete in the appropriate category

What constitutes "genetic markers of a man"? Right now, the rule is set at above 10 nmol/L testosterone.


Edit:

Well it's 10 nmol/L for some sports, but I'm still struggling to figure out what it is for boxing specifically. There must be one, because women can juice like crazy if there isn't. But the Paris 2024 Boxing Unit hasn't advertised their testosterone level to the point where I'm sure I've found it yet. I thought it was 10 mol/L, but I'm not as sure now.

 

[Duke]

Yes, sport is inherently unfair. Women's brackets attempt to make a very lopsided playing field a little less lopsided and more interesting. But they have this one challenge regarding who exactly qualifies for the women's bracket. There will be edge cases, and they will be difficult, which is why thoughtful regulations for the bracket are important and clear evaluation for the regulations matter.

Why is everyone trying so hard to overthink this?

I'm with you on this. If a person has a Y chromosome, they should be disqualified from sports classes that are reserved exclusively for X chromosomes. I don't have a problem with that.

It should be a fairly easy DNA test to take. No need to go prospecting around in anyone's knickers.

 

[Danoff]

I'm with you on this. If a person has a Y chromosome, they should be disqualified from sports classes that are reserved exclusively for X chromosomes. I don't have a problem with that.

It should be a fairly easy DNA test to take. No need to go prospecting around in anyone's knickers.

Apparently, and this is difficult to say with conviction because of how the IOC has punted all actual thought on this subject, there is no Y chromosome test. That is, unless a sport regulatory body which the IOC recognizes as authoritative (which they did not for the IBA), has a Y chromosome test, or unless a passport designation has a Y chromosome test. So... maybe? Probably not.

The main controlled substance that prevents men from competing with women is testosterone - which appears to be ubiquitously regulated among the recognized sport regulatory bodies. Because steroids are an issue. But I haven't gotten confident in what measure the Paris 2024 Boxing Unit is using for control over testosterone.

A testosterone test to prevent steroid use (and men in women's brackets), is not directly addressing the problem, though, and isn't sufficient. Whatever the controlling regulatory authority is that the IOC recognizes can set other standards, but I haven't spotted many other standards, because they're just as confused and were looking to the IOC to help sort this out. When the IBA set standards including chromosomes, they were stripped of their authority for the olympics by the IOC. The IOC may have (and probably did) other reasons to have done that.

What we're left with is a big mess, and I'm not seeing much of anything other than testosterone and passports being used.

So I'm not at all surprised that right wing american politicians are crying their usual culture war over this. Naturally they do it in the dumbest way possible.