450pp Street Car Tuners Club -- Nightly 9:45-12:00 EDT

[dudeondacouch]

I'll be there.

This.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

No time for that. Must spend the manhours modelling a Nissan Leaf, another Mini and ignoring the customer complaints about their network.

Again, it isn't their network. The game is distributed. Their code may need some tweaking, but there is no network hardware or servers that are running the game.

And I might be on tonight. Woot.

 

[k_riens]

Again, it isn't their network. The game is distributed. Their code may need some tweaking, but there is no network hardware or servers that are running the game.

And I might be on tonight. Woot.

Then why do I never have a problem with ANY OTHER GAME.

PD is owned by Sony.
SCEA is owned by Sony.
The corporate siblings should get together and (in Keenan from SNL's voice) FIX IT!!!

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

Then why do I never have a problem with ANY OTHER GAME.

Because it isn't a network problem.

The code in GT5 has a problem, but it is not a network or server issue.

 

[k_riens]

Because it isn't a network problem.

The code in GT5 has a problem, but it is not a network or server issue.

Then how did huyler get booted from PSN the other night, which in turn booted everyone else from the lobby because we're forced to run a fixed host now ?

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

Then how did huyler get booted from PSN the other night, which in turn booted everyone else from the lobby because we're forced to run a fixed host now ?

I don't understand the question. There is nothing in there to isolate a network problem.

The game doesn't run on any servers own by Sony or PD. The game is distributed. It runs on the PS3s of the people involved. Everyone is either sending location and vector information to each other, or sending control inputs to each other. In either case, it is just going over the same internet it has been going over since it came out. There are no Sony/PD servers that actually run the game.

There are some Sony (Qriocity) servers that run the lobbies and set up the games (so you don't have to open ports on your local firewall), but they don't actually run the game.

I agree, there is a bug that needs to be fixed. But it is a GT5 software problem (specifically one dealing with how it handles its network functionality), but it is not a network or server problem.

 

[k_riens]

My mistake.

GT5 online is perfect. It runs just as solid as any other game on the market.

 

[Nicktune]

@Osprey. I did a 3 lap race (nurb) with my impreza '07 500pp RS (Online)
Lap
1) 6:56.669 (standing start)
2) 6:53.359
3) 6:51.880

I think I can get a 6:50 next time. I need to adjust the transmission,I could only hit 265kmh ....It's only a problem on the long straight at the end (maybe I could get 1 sec there?).

 

[esh]

Then how did huyler get booted from PSN the other night, which in turn booted everyone else from the lobby because we're forced to run a fixed host now ?

That's a PSN issue. I'm pretty certain the clock discrepancies are tied to hardware and are not network related but based on the GT5 topology I think we will still see lag if there's someone in the room with a poor connection. There's really no way around it, unless we run fixed hosts.

That said, last night we had no issues, although it took me 3 times to connect to huyler's lounge. First time the menus would freeze every few seconds. Not sure if that's because huyler was still setting stuff up or what. Second time, as the course was loading my PS3 froze altogether and I had to unplug the thing. Couldn't even do a hard reset. After that though, the room ran smoothly.

 

[dabneyd]

That said, last night we had no issues, although it took me 3 times to connect to huyler's lounge. First time the menus would freeze every few seconds. Not sure if that's because huyler was still setting stuff up or what. Second time, as the course was loading my PS3 froze altogether and I had to unplug the thing. Couldn't even do a hard reset. After that though, the room ran smoothly.

That may have been after chuyler left the room and I became host.

 

[chuyler1]

First time was definitely because I was in the process of changing stuff. You entered before I even loaded the first track.

Sometimes I'm convinced it is a network issue, other times hardware. Last night I dropped in a 450 room for one race on the ring. The guy behind me was very laggy but I just tried not to look in the rear view. I made it the whole race like that and it came down to a 4 way battle down the straight. No input lag, frame rate loss, or lack of grip.

So if laggy cars can exist without affecting your gameplay, it must have more to do with number of cars on the track than anything else. But I could just be that there network code doesn't scale to 16 and the lag becomes exponential to the point of degrading gameplay.

 

[esh]

First time was definitely because I was in the process of changing stuff. You entered before I even loaded the first track.

Sometimes I'm convinced it is a network issue, other times hardware. Last night I dropped in a 450 room for one race on the ring. The guy behind me was very laggy but I just tried not to look in the rear view. I made it the whole race like that and it came down to a 4 way battle down the straight. No input lag, frame rate loss, or lack of grip.

So if laggy cars can exist without affecting your gameplay, it must have more to do with number of cars on the track than anything else. But I could just be that there network code doesn't scale to 16 and the lag becomes exponential to the point of degrading gameplay.

How many people were in the room?

This is why I say hardware...at least today :

Wow! We just tried to run a one-make race on Nurburgring GP Short using MX5 roadsters with 14 players and it ran in slow motion

The 6 lap race was unplayable but I urged everybody to keep going while I ran some tests.

The first lap I was running the G25 and official Sony BT headset. I first tried unplugging the G25 and going to the Dual shock and got an immediate speed boost. Then I turned off my BT headset and picked up more speed. I then ran the last lap with both the G25 and BT headset back on and went back to slow motion laps.

The bug definitely can affect anybody, but if you're running a wheel or BT headset then it's much worse!

 

[esh]

That may have been after chuyler left the room and I became host.

It was at the beginning of the night. No one was even in his lounge. I thought I was going to be there by myself for a few but once the track loaded huyler was in there changing regs and whatnot.

 

[esoxhntr]

@Osprey. I did a 3 lap race (nurb) with my impreza '07 500pp RS (Online)
Lap
1) 6:56.669 (standing start)
2) 6:53.359
3) 6:51.880

I think I can get a 6:50 next time. I need to adjust the transmission,I could only hit 265kmh ....It's only a problem on the long straight at the end (maybe I could get 1 sec there?).

That's fast!! It'll be awefully close, I believe my best lap in the RUF 3400S @ 500pp/RS (Standing Start) is 6:54.xxx . It, the Z4 M Coupe and the MR2 are my three quickest at 500 (not counting Elise) but the RUF is easier and more predictable. The MR2 is propably capable of putting a faster time but a lot harder to do so (it tops out just over 300km/hr on the back straight)

The fact that you got the AWD car to 6:56 is damn impressive..

 

[mcsimfan]

I also couldn't get connected to the lounge last night. After 3 attempts, I gave up.

As far as all the posts about the online lag/bug, I will provide some additional info about things I have seen personally. First, I have 2 PS3's. One for my use and one that my kids use. I have Time Warner Cable with Roadrunner (standard speed) and basic router (no special router for gaming). I have no problems racing online and never have as long as only one of the PS3's are online. As soon as my kids get online with their's, that is when I start to have problems getting into lounges, some lag while racing, and actually getting disconnected from races. I have multiple laptops in the house as well, but they don't seem to have any impact on the PS3 connections.

The funny part is my kids PS3 is downstairs, further from the wireless router than my PS3, and they have never once experienced lag or connection problems when playing Battlefield, Modern Warfare, etc. Thus, based on my experience, the issue almost has to be with the game and how it handles things with regards to the network, network speeds, packet loss, etc. If it were really just about network speeds, then I would think all online games would be having issues as well. IMO, the issue is most certainly a flaw in the game design.

That said, it doesn't stop me from enjoying the game. I just have to know when I can get online and when I can't.

 

[esh]

The reason for that probably has more to do with both PS3's using the same ports internally. So when data comes back destined for say port 5309 and both systems are running your router will not know which machine gets which packets. I don't think there's any way to change which ports the PS3 listens on so your options are limited.

I have a friend whose house I sometimes bring my setup to and we can race in one anothers lounge without issue but once we both try to connect to someone else's lounge or an open lobby one of the PS3's will timeout, usually the one that was connected to the room first.

 

[mcsimfan]

The reason for that probably has more to do with both PS3's using the same ports. So when data comes back destined for say port 5309 and both systems are running your router will not know which machine gets which packets. I don't think there's any way to change which ports the PS3 listens on so your options are limited.

I have a friend whose house I sometimes bring my setup to and we can race in one anothers lounge without issue but once we both try to connect to someone else's lounge or an open lobby one of the PS3's will timeout, usually the one that was connected to the room first.

Makes basic sense but still doesn't explain why other games seem to be unaffected by that. When I am online playing GT, my kids say there games don't react any differently. There are many times when I am online first and then they fire up MW3 and things just work. In the opposite scenario, it seems to work but only sporadically.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

The reason for that probably has more to do with both PS3's using the same ports internally. So when data comes back destined for say port 5309 and both systems are running your router will not know which machine gets which packets. I don't think there's any way to change which ports the PS3 listens on so your options are limited.

I have a friend whose house I sometimes bring my setup to and we can race in one anothers lounge without issue but once we both try to connect to someone else's lounge or an open lobby one of the PS3's will timeout, usually the one that was connected to the room first.

The two PS3s will have different IPs.

I think it simply a problem of GT5 not being as tolerant as other games. In some regards, it makes sense. Time is of the essence when speeding around in a race where drivers are concerned about hundredths of a second.

 

[chuyler1]

mcsimfan, I would suggest hard wiring your PS3. Wifi has a limited bandwidth and two PS3s trying to send/receive packets with a low ping will certainly cause hiccups. GT5 obviously isn't handling hiccups as well as other games, but it could just be that you don't notice the hiccups. In a FPS shooter, if there is lag, you just have trouble killing other players. You shoot where you think they are, but by then they have moved and your bullets don't register as a hit. In racing, if someone is not where they are supposed to be, it becomes a punt or a side swipe. We literally race inches from one another so even the smallest hiccup can cause someone to crash.

It seems like PD tried to resolve some of the lag issues by implementing a slow-down or speed-up to even things out...much like boost. However it is totally screwing with lap times making online racing very difficult.

One feature I remember NFSorsche having was the ability to race your opponents ghosts. You'd be competing with each other, but you could never come in contact with them. GT5 should have that option, so network issues won't affect the race. You'd be surprised how difficult it can be to race your opponent when neither of you has to worry about the other person on the track.

 

[esoxhntr]

The two PS3s will have different IPs.
.

yes they will but, like esh said, each ps3 requires certain open ports (which cannot be configured - so that means they both require the same ports).

so PS3-1 with IP 192.168.1.100 needs (as an example) Port 5555, PS3-2 IP 192.168.1.200 needs Port 5555 as well. Traffic comes in on Port 5555, the router does not know if it should send to PS3-1 or PS3-2.

 

[chuyler1]

Depending on the protocol, the router *should* know. You've never had a problem where you were loading a web page and got your coworker's web page instead. TCP/IP tacks on a signature of every device it encounters along its path so the response knows how to get back. The signature includes the port and the device ip that originally made a request to the port. However, I don't think the PS3 uses TCP/IP.

 

[esh]

The two PS3s will have different IPs.

I think it simply a problem of GT5 not being as tolerant as other games. In some regards, it makes sense. Time is of the essence when speeding around in a race where drivers are concerned about hundredths of a second.

It's the ports for the various services running on the PS3 that matter and I don't think the device is intuitive enough to know there is another one like it on the network and use an alternate port. IP's don't matter as much to the outside as you generally only have one public IP and are NAT'd behind your router.

I think in GT5 it's because we are peers to one another whereas the other games may be more client/server environments. I wonder if you joined a fixed-host room what would happen.

 

[esh]

Depending on the protocol, the router *should* know. You've never had a problem where you were loading a web page and got your coworker's web page instead. TCP/IP tacks on a signature of every device it encounters along its path so the response knows how to get back. The signature includes the port and the device ip that originally made a request to the port. However, I don't think the PS3 uses TCP/IP.

You've got the ports backwards. The server is @ 80 (outgoing to you) and after the request your browser determines it can host the connection in the upper unregistered port ranges. Your co-workers request goes to same HTTP service port on the server and then is returned to a different port on their client.

PS3 definitely uses TCP/IP.

Edit: I see what you're saying now about pulling the wrong webpage. That's a separate issue. The IP's you use on your local network are considered private and not routable beyond the LAN. Any router would not allow packets beyond it's LAN interface that are destined for the same subnet. Thus, any published website on the internet would only use public IP's. Your router actual makes decisions based on the network mask or subnet and once it sees that the packet has a destination for an unknown subnet the packet will be sent out it's WAN interface to the internet without any lookups for a node on the LAN.

Also, the router will not know if two machines are to receive data on the same port on the same subnet unless you specify in firewall rules to use different external ports and then the same port internally on each client. For instance, you have two web servers on your network, both hosting on default HTTP port of 80. In your firewall config you can have 1 server as http://www.domain1.com (which is same as http://www.domain1.com:80, we just don't append default port) and the second as http://www.domain2.com:8080. This is what the outside world will see but in the same firewall rule you specify external port 80 goes to internal port 80 @ 192.168.1.5 and external port 8080 goes to internal port 80 @ 192.168.1.6. The proper packets will get filtered based on the external port.

With the PS3 there is no way to get the outside to use an alt port for PSN or GT5 services so it will always
use the default and cause 1 node to not get packets it needs to complete connection sequence.

 

[dabneyd]

PS3 definitely uses TCP/IP.

I think Chyuler may be partially right there; everything on the internet uses IP. However, most online games are going to communicate via UDP since it requires no handshake to form a connection and therefore is much less latent than TCP. However, it has no error correction, so that may be causing some issues.

 

[dabneyd]

With the PS3 there is no way to get the outside to use an alt port for PSN or GT5 services so it will always
use the default and cause 1 node to not get packets it needs to complete connection sequence.

I'm pretty sure you can route data to two different IP address through the same port. I have two 360's that use UPNP to open the correct ports, and they are both running through the same port. I've never seen network issues when we use both systems at the same time, even if we're playing the same game in the same lobby.

 

[esh]

I think Chyuler may be partially right there; everything on the internet uses IP. However, most online games are going to communicate via UDP since it requires no handshake to form a connection and therefore is much less latent than TCP. However, it has no error correction, so that may be causing some issues.

TCP/IP is the suite. UDP was a decision made by PD in the programming of GT5 over TCP probably due to overhead and speed concerns but both TCP and UDP are elements of TCP/IP.

 

[esh]

I'm pretty sure you can route data to two different IP address through the same port. I have two 360's that use UPNP to open the correct ports, and they are both running through the same port. I've never seen network issues when we use both systems at the same time, even if we're playing the same game in the same lobby.

But what type of environment is it with the 360 and those games? I'm guessing it's similar to accessing a webpage from different machines on the same LAN.

With lounges and non-fixed hosts GT5 requires an incoming connection which I would think is the same port both externally and internally on both PS3's by default. I've not really paid attention on my network as I only have the one device but this is the conclusion I came to when at my friends house. And it never works when that happens. There is no data sent to the PS3 that has timedout so I just see everyone else as loading and all chat disappears.

It's like doing the opposite of what I described previously with the 2 webservers only you have both sites published (meaning the internet sees www.domain1.com and www.domain2.com) with the default HTTP port of 80. Sometimes domain1 would get requests and sometimes domain2 would get them. The external port has to be different.

 

[mcsimfan]

mcsimfan, I would suggest hard wiring your PS3. Wifi has a limited bandwidth and two PS3s trying to send/receive packets with a low ping will certainly cause hiccups. GT5 obviously isn't handling hiccups as well as other games, but it could just be that you don't notice the hiccups. In a FPS shooter, if there is lag, you just have trouble killing other players. You shoot where you think they are, but by then they have moved and your bullets don't register as a hit. In racing, if someone is not where they are supposed to be, it becomes a punt or a side swipe. We literally race inches from one another so even the smallest hiccup can cause someone to crash.

It seems like PD tried to resolve some of the lag issues by implementing a slow-down or speed-up to even things out...much like boost. However it is totally screwing with lap times making online racing very difficult.

One feature I remember NFSorsche having was the ability to race your opponents ghosts. You'd be competing with each other, but you could never come in contact with them. GT5 should have that option, so network issues won't affect the race. You'd be surprised how difficult it can be to race your opponent when neither of you has to worry about the other person on the track.

I know I can always hardwire it, but it hadn't been an issue until recently. Besides GT is really the only game that seems to have the issue. I'm a bit overly sensitive to wires and clutter when it comes to electronics especially since my PS3 is in my family room and hooked up to a nice home theatre system. So, hardwiring will cause me a lot of work and it isn't really worth my time. Most times that I try to race online things are grand. Until the last month or so in fact I would say I never had anything more than the rare hiccup. So, I will just sit tight and hope that an update fixes the issue.

The rest of the posts are all good technical discussions about networking, but I still feel don't adaquetly explain (except maybe that GT is much more time sensitive) why online issues don't manifest themselves in all the other games that we play online. Everyone has an opinion on this issue, but I believe that the root of the problem is the game and not the network. It isn't enough of a problem yet that it is keeping me from playing, but I can definitely see where it would if I was racing seriously in racing series or in something more competetive.

 

[esh]

I know I can always hardwire it, but it hadn't been an issue until recently. Besides GT is really the only game that seems to have the issue. I'm a bit overly sensitive to wires and clutter when it comes to electronics especially since my PS3 is in my family room and hooked up to a nice home theatre system. So, hardwiring will cause me a lot of work and it isn't really worth my time. Most times that I try to race online things are grand. Until the last month or so in fact I would say I never had anything more than the rare hiccup. So, I will just sit tight and hope that an update fixes the issue.

The rest of the posts are all good technical discussions about networking, but I still feel don't adaquetly explain (except maybe that GT is much more time sensitive) why online issues don't manifest themselves in all the other games that we play online. Everyone has an opinion on this issue, but I believe that the root of the problem is the game and not the network. It isn't enough of a problem yet that it is keeping me from playing, but I can definitely see where it would if I was racing seriously in racing series or in something more competetive.

Can you confirm UPnP is enabled on your router and that you see multiple devices using the service? Now that I think about it, dabney may be right about being able to use same ports so long as UPnP is enabled. I cannot confirm my friend had that enabled on his router. That would require UPnP to then do the work of using different external ports for both machines.

 

[mcsimfan]

Can you confirm UPnP is enabled on your router and that you see multiple devices using the service? Now that I think about it, dabney may be right about being able to use same ports so long as UPnP is enabled. I cannot confirm my friend had that enabled on his router. That would require UPnP to then do the work of using different external ports for both machines.

Don't know off the top of my head. Been several years since I set it up and haven't really ever had to mess with it for any reason. I will check when I get home. You are thinking that if it isn't enabled, I should just enable it and that may resolve the issue I have when both PS3's are online? Would I have to do anything on the PS3 set up?

Thanks for the feedback guys.