$5 Billion to Revitalize Lincoln: Enter the 400 BHP '16 MKZ

[Robin]

Seems like a token gesture to fit it with those doors now as it should have had them from the beginning. Also with the B pillar there it doesn't have the same effect. Clutching at straws to save a sinking ship comes to mind.

 

[mustafur]

You can just laugh at how this would of gone down at the boardroom.

 

[RocZX]

Lincoln Continental 80th Anniversary Coach Door Edition.
Only 80 will be made. It will be 6in longer. And available next summer.
https://www.carscoops.com/2018/12/l...oach-door-edition-arrives-rear-suicide-doors/

The doors handles look nice

The rear center console looks like a quick aftermarket add on

 

[Robin]

Basically trying to turn it back into the 2002 concept right down to the pale Blue colour and rear centre console....

Should have just made that one Lincoln!

 

[Tornado]

That was how it should have been from the start. It still probably would have flopped, but there would have been something interesting about it enough for a purchase beyond the chairs.

 

[homeforsummer]

Lincoln really confuses me as a brand. They're really not too bad to look at, they seem to offer fairly high-quality products, the interiors are fairly swish, the technology seems decent, there's obviously huge heritage to the brand, but...

...does anyone actually buy them? It kinda seems like the American Infiniti, in that the products are fine but there's a direct competitor doing things slightly better (in Infiniti's case Lexus, in Lincoln's case, Cadillac), and then a bunch of German brands filling every conceivable niche too. And I guess Tesla, which is probably the brand many would go to for the American/technology/luxury combo right now.

This Continental's neat enough, but it doesn't have the swagger of the 1960s one and from certain angles does look a bit like an old Chrysler 300C that's eaten a few too many burgers.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Lincoln really confuses me as a brand. They're really not too bad to look at, they seem to offer fairly high-quality products, the interiors are fairly swish, the technology seems decent, there's obviously huge heritage to the brand, but...

...does anyone actually buy them? It kinda seems like the American Infiniti, in that the products are fine but there's a direct competitor doing things slightly better (in Infiniti's case Lexus, in Lincoln's case, Cadillac), and then a bunch of German brands filling every conceivable niche too. And I guess Tesla, which is probably the brand many would go to for the American/technology/luxury combo right now.

This Continental's neat enough, but it doesn't have the swagger of the 1960s one and from certain angles does look a bit like an old Chrysler 300C that's eaten a few too many burgers.

Lincoln has no discernible ethos. The Aviator and new Navigator might start to change that....but even then it's like a different/possibly better Cadillac.

-BMW - Driving dynamics ad naseum. At this point it doesn't even matter if they are actually good...that badge is a self-fulfilling prophecy of driving excitement.
-Audi - All weather champion, technology integration. You wouldn't believe how many people in NorCal buy Quattro Audi's just so they can feel safe the 3 times a year they go to Tahoe.
-Mercedes Benz - The Badge. The Luxury
-Lexus - Utterly spectacular engineering and (lately) wild design
-Cadillac - Big boy toys (like....rap videos). [Purely applied to the Escalade, their only relevant product, IMO]
-Chrysler - Cool enough for criminals
-Land Rover/Range Rover - Unstoppable and brash in a European hip-hop sorta way
-Volvo - Environmentally aware, outsider Luxury capitalizing on trendy Scandinavian design

They all have fairly consistent ethos that is supported by strong, concise, and clear marketing campaigns. What on Earth were those cryptic Matthew McConaughey ads??

Infiniti - ????
Lincoln - ????

 

[RocZX]

does anyone actually buy them?

Mostly people over 50.

 

[Northstar]

Mostly people over 50.

I think that's about 15 years off.
Maybe that's why Lincoln can't make money, their customers die of old age before they pay the car off.

 

[Keef]

Speaking of the new Lincoln, where the hell is the Aviator in this thread?

 

[homeforsummer]

Lincoln has no discernible ethos. The Aviator and new Navigator might start to change that....but even then it's like a different/possibly better Cadillac.

-BMW - Driving dynamics ad naseum. At this point it doesn't even matter if they are actually good...that badge is a self-fulfilling prophecy of driving excitement.
-Audi - All weather champion, technology integration. You wouldn't believe how many people in NorCal buy Quattro Audi's just so they can feel safe the 3 times a year they go to Tahoe.
-Mercedes Benz - The Badge. The Luxury
-Lexus - Utterly spectacular engineering and (lately) wild design
-Cadillac - Big boy toys (like....rap videos). [Purely applied to the Escalade, their only relevant product, IMO]
-Chrysler - Cool enough for criminals
-Land Rover/Range Rover - Unstoppable and brash in a European hip-hop sorta way
-Volvo - Environmentally aware, outsider Luxury capitalizing on trendy Scandinavian design

They all have fairly consistent ethos that is supported by strong, concise, and clear marketing campaigns. What on Earth were those cryptic Matthew McConaughey ads??

Infiniti - ????
Lincoln - ????

The thing I find interesting about breaking down each brand like this is how much the German three are converging on the same space. I think you've been quite generous with them now, since BMW seems determined to be Mercedes these days and Audi seems determined to be BMW. Merc arguably fits the same market segment it always has but has lost a sense of tastefulness along the way, and I think Audi is broadly to blame for mission creep at the German three in general because it's the "upstart" and 25 years ago wasn't even close to the others in terms of cachet.

[Edit: My train of thought stopped with the above when I wrote it but I was meant to add, that Audi's rise to be on the same level as BMW/Merc and sudden "cool" image spooked those two, so both immediately veered off track to try and grab a slice of that pie.]

It's one reason I admire Lexus, as it started out as a Mercedes clone and has then spent the last quarter century doing its own thing. V10 supercars? Why not? Crazy styling? Go for it. Hybrids rather than diesels? We basically invented it, buster.

Volvo has been passed around like hot coals but finally seems to be coming into its own. I don't think there's ever been a time that Volvo has made bad cars as such, but like Lexus is now seems to have settled into a place where it's able to exercise its potential. I'd say the same about Land Rover too, but for the fact JLR has dithered over replacing its most iconic model (the Defender), and a sneaking suspicion that some piece of safety/weight/size/emissions legislation will kill off SUVs in future and therefore decimate the brand.

Speaking of the new Lincoln, where the hell is the Aviator in this thread?

This was the car I had in mind when listing some of Lincoln's positive points. The only trouble with it that I can see is... that it's a Lincoln. You'd have to either really want to buy American or really not want to buy European/British to choose one over say, a Range Rover Velar or Range Rover Sport, wouldn't you? The styling certainly seems influenced by RR stuff even if it's not a direct copy.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

This was the car I had in mind when listing some of Lincoln's positive points. The only trouble with it that I can see is... that it's a Lincoln. You'd have to either really want to buy American or really not want to buy European/British to choose one over say, a Range Rover Velar or Range Rover Sport, wouldn't you? The styling certainly seems influenced by RR stuff even if it's not a direct copy.

I was going to say the same thing actually. It's a handsome car...but it has a busy face and its notably not as good looking as the RR stuff it's seemingly emulating. I think the interior looks pretty special, but based on some reviews of the Navigator's interior, I have a feeling that the quality will ultimately fall short of the Europeans & Japanese. Doesn't help that the grill/corporate face looks so anonymous (actually somewhat resembles Kia's grill) and Lincoln keeps changing it every few years. I remember liking the Aviator a lot more when I first saw it....but it was in a much darker color. The white exposes a lot that I don't like.

 

[Keef]

You'd have to either really want to buy American or really not want to buy European/British to choose one over say, a Range Rover Velar or Range Rover Sport, wouldn't you?

Yeah, but when you're American that decision becomes a lot easier. I expect to be able to afford cars like these in the future, but if I had that wealth at this moment it would've been hard-earned, much to hard to bother spending it on a known unreliable status symbol. Obviously the European brands are doing just fine in the US but they're doing it based on classist visibility alone. They've got terrible reputations for reliability and the problems continue, whereas something like his Aviator is actually more rare and unique than a Range Rover, while also being more dependable. I personally would choose something like this over any of the European brands if I were paying for it.

As for Rolls Royce styling, there are several classically luxurious design cues that Rolls Royce and Bentley have remained true to while other brands have abandoned them in favor of youthfulness and athleticism. I strongly dislike the latter. If I'm going to drive a luxury car I don't want to look athletic, I want to look better, with zero shame, and the best way to do that is to drive a car that looks like a Chris-Craft.

 

[homeforsummer]

As for Rolls Royce styling

RR is Range Rover. Sorry, thought that made sense in context. R-R would be Rolls-Royce

To me the Aviator looks like a slightly busier and less cohesive RR Sport.

 

[Keef]

RR is Range Rover. Sorry, thought that made sense in context. R-R would be Rolls-Royce

To me the Aviator looks like a slightly busier and less cohesive RR Sport.

Eww, gross. No. Even the big Range Rover has an upsloping "athletic" beltline, unlike the Continental, Bentleys, and Rolls Royces (except the Cullinan which is all sorts of wrong). Even this Aviator has considerably less upslope and from some angles appears to have a rearward sloping boat tail as those luxury cars I mentioned. The Range Rovers may be elegant but are more aggressive and artificial looking.

EDIT: But the fact that we're discussing two cars with a significant price difference is probably a good thing for Lincoln, as it is with Mazda and the CX-9.

 

[homeforsummer]

That doesn't slope upward to me - it looks pretty perpendicular. As does the Velar...

...and even the Sport barely slopes upwards.

...and neither looks like the springs are sagging from the factory like the Lincoln (which is ironic, because they'll probably end up like that a few years down the line...), a symptom of that downward-sloping tail.

"Boat tail" only really works on sedans, coupes or convertibles - on an SUV it just looks like the chassis isn't strong enough to hold its weight. I'm not entirely convinced it works on some of the big luxury stuff at the moment as the cars are getting so large that any subtlety the look might have is lost. Looked good on an old cigar-like Jag XJ, not so much on say, a Phantom.

Sport aside (which is getting on a bit these days), RR's stuff is more cohesive than the Aviator and has cleaner detailing.

 

[Keef]

View attachment 787425​

That doesn't slope upward to me - it looks pretty perpendicular. As does the Velar...

View attachment 787427​

...and even the Sport barely slopes upwards.

View attachment 787426​

...and neither looks like the springs are sagging from the factory like the Lincoln (which is ironic, because they'll probably end up like that a few years down the line...), a symptom of that downward-sloping tail.

"Boat tail" only really works on sedans, coupes or convertibles - on an SUV it just looks like the chassis isn't strong enough to hold its weight. I'm not entirely convinced it works on some of the big luxury stuff at the moment as the cars are getting so large that any subtlety the look might have is lost. Looked good on an old cigar-like Jag XJ, not so much on say, a Phantom.

View attachment 787429​

Sport aside (which is getting on a bit these days), RR's stuff is more cohesive than the Aviator and has cleaner detailing.

Really? The Velar and Sport look like wood shims.

While the Lincoln and Bentley have rear haunches, they ultimately slope downward like a classic speedboat...

While Rolls takes the boat tail to an extreme, with the rear of the car actually lower than where it started

Luxury has wide hips and skinny ankles. Ask @Danoff

 

[VXR]

My word, that Phantom looks incredible.

 

[homeforsummer]

Luxury has wide hips and skinny ankles. Ask @Danoff

I'm not advocating SUVs over sedans.

What I'm saying is that regardless of whether it has a droopy arse or not, the Aviator isn't as elegant as any of the Range Rovers mentioned above. Apples to apples.

For the record, I don't think the Continental, Mulsanne or Phantom are elegant either - they're enormous, ostentatious slabs of metal that in reality don't get close to the class of a high-end speedboat (whose profile further benefits, usually, from some of it being below the water line).

The Jag I posted further up is more elegant than any of the non-boats on this page. To further your analogy, it's the only one whose ankles you'd be able to see because they wouldn't be shrouded by its calfs...

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Might as well go all the way

 

[Keef]

What do you think is elegant? I think it's imposing simplicity, that's what I usually look for. Long, clean, smooth. Jags are elegant, Astons are elegant (at least the ones without the ridiculous scoops and vents), but I think that Phantom takes the cake. I agree that the Range Rovers are more elegant than the Lincoln but I also don't think they scream luxury. They're trying to be too sporty.

Anyways, let's talk about the Aviators competition.

The QX60 is elegant enough but I've driven one and it's pretty basic and terrible. I would never own one.

Grr, I'm an MDX and I'm mad for no reason.

The Lincoln will probably be cross-shopped with the Buick Enclave (the fancy Avenir thing starts at $53k) more often than BMW, Audi, Mercedes, or Jaguar, etc. Probably even Lexus as I think it's earned a higher status. Cadillac doesn't have a good seven-seat competitor yet.

Anyways, all of these cars are FWD-based and none of them have the nice rear-drive, "droopy ass" stance of real luxury cars, unlike the Aviator. Who the hell knows if it'll sell though. It probably won't sell as well as the QX60 because those things get fleet sales since Nissan is a sellout.

Totally unrelated, I found this render of a Lincoln Mustang chopped from a Lexus coupe:

 

[VXR]

The Aviator looks good to my eyes. Maybe gets a little nondescript towards the rear, but the front - like the Continental - actually looks luxury and not sporting like the German trio.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

What do you think is elegant? I think it's imposing simplicity, that's what I usually look for. Long, clean, smooth. Jags are elegant, Astons are elegant (at least the ones without the ridiculous scoops and vents), but I think that Phantom takes the cake. I agree that the Range Rovers are more elegant than the Lincoln but I also don't think they scream luxury. They're trying to be too sporty.

Anyways, let's talk about the Aviators competition.

The QX60 is elegant enough but I've driven one and it's pretty basic and terrible. I would never own one.

Grr, I'm an MDX and I'm mad for no reason.

The Lincoln will probably be cross-shopped with the Buick Enclave (the fancy Avenir thing starts at $53k) more often than BMW, Audi, Mercedes, or Jaguar, etc. Probably even Lexus as I think it's earned a higher status. Cadillac doesn't have a good seven-seat competitor yet.

Anyways, all of these cars are FWD-based and none of them have the nice rear-drive, "droopy ass" stance of real luxury cars, unlike the Aviator. Who the hell knows if it'll sell though. It probably won't sell as well as the QX60 because those things get fleet sales since Nissan is a sellout.

Totally unrelated, I found this render of a Lincoln Mustang chopped from a Lexus coupe:

To your point, yes the Aviator is a far more elegant vehicle than those that you listed. However, I'm not sure you're in the right segment. Word on the street is that the Aviator will start around $50k and possibly be optioned up towards 80k. But more importantly, it's a more serious thing, based on a new RWD platform. That seems to put it actually in the Range Rover realm, or at least among the Audi/BMW/Mercedes/Jaguar/Lexus cage fight.

Abstractly, I think elegance can be achieved in multiple ways. A Rolls Royce has a conservative, regal & stately elegance that makes you think of different types of white powder and thick perfume. It's basically Blenheim Palace:

With a Rolls, as with Blenheim Palace, you are perpetually & purposely wearing your wealth on display. I feel like this mode of elegance also applies to things like the 4th Generation Lincoln Continental (1960s).

But there are other forms of elegance. There is a kind of intellectual elegance that I think exists in something like Le Corbusier's Villa Savoy, which must have looked like a starship when it was built in 1927. You think of improvisational jazz, long winded conversations about teaching pedagogies, and whatnot. It's not so much that the eventual form is elegant (though I would argue it is) but that the embodiment of the ideas themselves are elegant.

A similarly, if not classically, elegant Citroen SM would feel right at home parked under the living space here.

Then there is a form of elegance that is pure un-adulterated geometry, like Zaha's absurdly gorgeous Heydar Aliyev Center:

Calls to mind what Mazda has been up to lately with things like the Vision Coupe, and basically every coach-built car of the 1930s.

I think the direct comparison to watercraft is a little tough to reconcile. A boat is generally...well...boat-shaped largely because of it's functional requirements. Having a Rolls-Royce Phantom shape with an electric drivetrain, for instance, wouldn't make a lot of sense if not for tradition.

There are others, but I'm kinda busy. lol.

That's just my opinion, man.

 

[Keef]

Having a Rolls-Royce Phantom shape with an electric drivetrain, for instance, wouldn't make a lot of sense if not for tradition.

They kinda did that already.

If that Aviator is going to top out at $80k, the interior better be slicker than Ivanka Trump's velour panties because the rest of it looks nice but not that nice.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

They kinda did that already.

If that Aviator is going to top out at $80k, the interior better be richer than Ivanka Trump's velour panties because the rest of it looks nice but not that nice.

Well that's....interesting. I hope it has one hell of a frunk. The problem with frunks (and I use one regularly) is that they are limited in their practicality compared to rear cargo areas for the simple reason of visibility forwards. A Phantom-sized frunk with side access could be interesting...perfect for skiis!

 

[Keef]

A Phantom-sized frunk with side access could be interesting

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Sex.

I'm still waiting for somebody to do an electric pickup truck with aircraft carrier-type massing. All bed, little offset cab.

 

[Populuxe]

I owned a 1964 Lincoln Continental for several years, drove it all over the US and even Canada, so I have a soft spot for the brand. When Ford went on its buying spree in the 1980s and bought up Jaguar, Land Rover, Aston Martin and Volvo, I was worried about Mercury and Lincoln. FoMoCo clearly meant to build up Jaguar to compete against Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Audi. Aston was going to be their Porsche/Ferrari/Lamborghini competitor. Volvo was going to be their near-luxury marque. And Land Rover would compete against all the other SUV makers. So where did that leave Mercury and Lincoln? On life support for a quarter century, it turned out. By the time Ford dumped Jag, LR, AM, and Volvo, Mercury and Lincoln were sad shadows of their former selves. They were clearly just more upscale Fords than real brands with their own identities. What Lincoln was selling ten years ago should have labeled Mercury. Lincoln should have been much further upmarket, but Lincoln and Mercury had been squeezed between Jaguar and Ford. Once Ford was back to its three core brands, there wasn't enough money or time to save all three, and Mercury was put down to save the other two.

The biggest problem to Lincoln's revitalization is its lack of relevance for the last thirty years, and the need to restore the brand at exactly the time everyone has decided they're done with sedans and they only want SUVs. I think the new Continental is a beautiful car. I think it's sales success (or lack thereof) has less to do with it's looks or performance or status, and more to do with the staggering downturn in sales of sedans. Were this a better economy for passenger cars, I'd love to see Lincoln have three sedans lines: full-sized Continental to compete against the A8/7-series/S class; mid-sized Premiere to compete against the A6/5-series/E class, and compact Zephry to compete against the A4/3-series/C class. Maybe even a subcompact Cosmopolitan to compete against the A3/1-series/CLA class. But that's unlikely to happen. Instead, we'll have the Continental and Zephry continue on as long as they can make some profit off them, and more and more SUVs and CUVs. I'm not happy about it, but we have to face reality. That's what's selling and if FoMoCo wants Lincoln to survive (and I think they do), then that's what they're going to sell.

 

[Keef]

December 22 is the last time this was updated? Woooooow.

Lincoln did it again. The new-Escape-based Corsair (it has a name!) is...

GOR.

JUSS.

 

[Populuxe]

December 22 is the last time this was updated? Woooooow.

Lincoln did it again. The new-Escape-based Corsair (it has a name!) is...

GOR.

JUSS.

I have to admit, that looks good. I'm glad they went with completely new body panels and not just a light reskin. I hope it's a success.