5 years, was it worth the wait?

[bodger]

and restrict leagues to BHP limits on diff rooms the online .

You can restrict bhp in races. As you can weight. Or by car.

I'd hardly call it boring. I don't think the suggests you make will transform it from 'boring' to 'interesting'. I agree that some kind of reward/points system would be good though.

 

[Walking Dead]

If you knew something about software development and testing you would know that to get this thing out the door (the size that it is) requires significant testing. A lot of the 'so called' bugs that are mentioned here, such as the shadows, are not the results of poor testing, but design decisions they have made to get the game running smoothly - yes they would have liked to have them smoother, but currently it isn't possible.

I actually find the single player to be rock-solid - no crashes or funnies at all. There are still some issues with the online play, but given the amount of traffic it is hardly surprising.

What some forget as well, is that this isn't a solid 6 years of development, they've had a lot of other things out the door since 2004.

Actually I do, not alot within the coding language, but a bit on the set up basis.

I lecture 3D animation for films and games, and have several of my past students working around the world in various big gaming studios. Their and my answer to you - Game companies continously test whatever graphic implementation until it achieves the required result.

Lighting, dynamics, modelling, texturing, particles, are generally tested seperately on the game's engine. And slowly depending on the the workflow, they're implemented together one by one, still testing them and ensuring to be bug free during play.

Think of it when building a car. You test the eletricals before installing them. You would need to test the structure of the chasis before using it. The engine is tested on a bench before installing it. And etc with all the other pieces.

When things go wrong, like in the example of GT5, is generally the tranfer of coding for rendering... However if proper unrushed testing was done, this could have been avoided.

Two things clearly stand out. And I will do my best to put it in a easy way to undertsand. The actual finished product had to be compressed as the PS3 couldn't handle it. Or the rendering into HD was taking too long and had to be compressed, which maybe limited the program.

Or, the entire graphics engine was a mess to begin with, and there was too much to repair and they ran out of time.

But not to get to involved with the technicals, I do suggest you take the time to visit whatever gaming company near you. Most of the times they allow eager students to tour about... That is if you're still a student, otherwise befriend someone in the gaming industry and find out for yourself.

 

[bodger]

Actually I do, not alot within the coding language, but a bit on the set up basis.

I lecture 3D animation for films and games, and have several of my past students working around the world in various big gaming studios. Their and my answer to you - Game companies continously test whatever graphic implementation until it achieves the required result.

Lighting, dynamics, modelling, texturing, particles, are generally tested seperately on the game's engine. And slowly depending on the the workflow, they're implemented together one by one, still testing them and ensuring to be bug free during play.

Think of it when building a car. You test the eletricals before installing them. You would need to test the structure of the chasis before using it. The engine is tested on a bench before installing it. And etc with all the other pieces.

When things go wrong, like in the example of GT5, is generally the tranfer of coding for rendering... However if proper unrushed testing was done, this could have been avoided.

Two things clearly stand out. And I will do my best to put it in a easy way to undertsand. The actual finished product had to be compressed as the PS3 couldn't handle it. Or the rendering into HD was taking too long and had to be compressed, which maybe limited the program.

Or, the entire graphics engine was a mess to begin with, and there was too much to repair and they ran out of time.

But not to get to involved with the technicals, I do suggest you take the time to visit whatever gaming company near you. Most of the times they allow eager students to tour about... That is if you're still a student, otherwise befriend someone in the gaming industry and find out for yourself.

Not sure what your point is here - other than your desire to send me to a gaming development company for an education.

I'm a software developer with 10 years experience (C, C++, Java). I worked from a small time games developer for 6 months.

I hardly think you could suggest the graphics engine is a mess - this is after all one of highest resolution PS3 titles out there pushing the highest polygon-count car models seen in a driving game. All at high frame rates.

Putting the tracks aside, you seem to be suggesting that the high poly count models produced had to be 'compressed' further to make the game work smoothly. Yes, this is kind of stating the obvious though isn't it ? - there are always trade offs.

As far as this being some kind of error though - I don't think the facts bare this out - the premium models have 100K plus polys (discounting any automatic LOD reduction done by the engine when running). It is able to sustain a field of premium cars. The standard cars seem to be quick additions from previous games. It seems to me that they run out of time modelling the premiums and there wasn't time to do everything to premium standard. This is NOT a bug. It is not a slip in testing standards.

This is by no means a particularly bad bug ridden game. If you want an an example of worse glitches in an initial release, look at F1 2010.

 

[RWB1213]

I found a new graphical bug which, once noticed, is extremely annoying . . .

On the Tarmac Rally Stage in Spec Events, I noticed last night that on high speed straights the roadside trees shadows are drawn in around 200ft in front of your car. At high speeds this draw in is about the worst graphic popping I have ever seen, especially considering the smooth frame rate and the overall high resolution. I understand there is a trade off, and you can't have both, but given the resolution, popping actually seems worse and is more noticable in GT5. I hadn't noticed the popping as much on standard tracks, but the dynamically generated tracks for suffer big time.

 

[UkHardcore23]

After PES this is the most disappointed i have been this gen, feels like the game was made in 6 months not 6 years!

 

[or17ndo]

After PES this is the most disappointed i have been this gen, feels like the game was made in 6 months not 6 years!

OMG i feel your pain. PES does my head in and now this. Japanese developers cutting corners!

 

[Sselecta]

OMG i feel your pain. PES does my head in and now this. Japanese developers cutting corners!

Yes, PES was a real head-scratcher too. But at least the developers of PES has some kind of contact with their fans unlike PD.

 

[B_U_L_L_E_T]

I'm really enjoying this game. It feels and plays like the other GT games...no change there. But the 5 or 6 year development time is ridiculous. I just don't see where they needed this much time? It's pretty much the same game it hs always been with upgraded graphics and a few new cars.

 

[bodger]

Half of the issue is that, most of the time, it looks so good that the stuff that doesn't meet this standard clashes badly. E.g. the shadows

Technically, this is one of best PS3 games out there (in terms of res, detail, frame rate) but, compromises have been made to maintain frame rate. That's life. You can't have everything.

 

[boxox]

Two things clearly stand out. And I will do my best to put it in a easy way to undertsand. The actual finished product had to be compressed as the PS3 couldn't handle it. Or the rendering into HD was taking too long and had to be compressed, which maybe limited the program.

Or, the entire graphics engine was a mess to begin with, and there was too much to repair and they ran out of time.

I think the major constraint here wasn't just the technical limitations, it was their content. Trying to make 10 cars fit into your engine is one thing. 100 is a bit harder. When you get to 1000, and 800 of those are designed around a whole bunch of legacy workarounds for totally different hardware, and the engine has to have those interacting with vastly more complicated, differently designed models, both in terms of physics and visuals, I can see that getting just a little bit tricky.

They might have just painted themselves into a corner with the amount of data they took on to cram in there into one big engine.

 

[ANFD]

Do us all a favor and keep that opinion for yourself. Wouldn't want other people having their brains infected by such nonsense.

It's called getting with the times. They had 6 years. Other PS3 games have these features and damage is neither unecessary or juvenile. Mechanical damage isn't unnecessary or juvenile. And neither have been properly implemented anyway.

The game is still pretty much a virtual showroom.

You're just going to have to live with the fact that we all have opinions and we're all entitled to them .... sorry you're so threatened by my tongue in cheek comment. The point of which was that PD tried to implement too much stuff in too little time at the last moment possibly due to pressure from a contingent I wouldn't consider die hard GT fanatics.

As for damage, it's just my opinon, I'm not going to change it at your insistence. Every 12 year old or lower who ever got a ride in my Playseat all immediately start backwards around the track simply to see cars and parts flying all over the place. The thousands of hours of entertainment and joy I got from playing GT, GT2, GT3, GT4 and Prologue wasn't dimminished in the least because they didn't have damage. I have owned every racing game ever made for the Playstation systems and still have over 100 in my collection. Many of them include damage. I am mildly entertained by it for the first 5 minutes, and then it seems that it does nothing to really add to the concept of applying driving skills and race strategy to what is supposed to be a game about racing.

Once again, my opinion .... sorry .... live with it

 

[bodger]

Do us all a favor and keep that opinion for yourself. Wouldn't want other people having their brains infected by such nonsense.

It's called getting with the times. They had 6 years. Other PS3 games have these features and damage is neither unecessary or juvenile. Mechanical damage isn't unnecessary or juvenile. And neither have been properly implemented anyway.

The game is still pretty much a virtual showroom.

GT has always been a bit of a Virtual showroom though hasn't it? It's Kaz's vision and the beauty of automotive art; there always has been a focus on the style, the Encyclopaedia like extensiveness of the car roster, above all else.

I think if you really are after a true simulation none of the console offerings are really up your street. You are on the wrong place, barking up the wrong tree.

I think you miss the point with your comments about damage. I think if they wanted to, they could have made the cars fall apart easier, but it has been an actual design decision to avoid a destruction derby, and above all, to preserve the beauty of the cars, and the virtual showroom you disdain. It is not a technical failure, but a choice.

 

[samdavis]

You're just going to have to live with the fact that we all have opinions and we're all entitled to them .... sorry you're so threatened by my tongue in cheek comment. The point of which was that PD tried to implement too much stuff in too little time at the last moment possibly due to pressure from a contingent I wouldn't consider die hard GT fanatics.

As for damage, it's just my opinon, I'm not going to change it at your insistence. Every 12 year old or lower who ever got a ride in my Playseat all immediately start backwards around the track simply to see cars and parts flying all over the place. The thousands of hours of entertainment and joy I got from playing GT, GT2, GT3, GT4 and Prologue wasn't dimminished in the least because they didn't have damage. I have owned every racing game ever made for the Playstation systems and still have over 100 in my collection. Many of them include damage. I am mildly entertained by it for the first 5 minutes, and then it seems that it does nothing to really add to the concept of applying driving skills and race strategy to what is supposed to be a game about racing.

Once again, my opinion .... sorry .... live with it

I don't have a problem living with idiotic opinions that, thankfully, aren't shared by most people.

I don't need damage to be THE feature in the game. It's not going to be the sole thing that I look for while playing but when Kaz talks about perfection, and delays the game as much as he does (presumably to add things like this), don't half ass it. I don't buy the notion, as the commenter above me says, that it was a design choice to not give the cars ultra-realistic damage. As much of a perfectionist as Kaz is, if he's gonna put it in the game at all, he's gonna go all the way. It's clear though from the dearth of other features that at some point they started cutting a ton of corners just to get the game out and that much is disappointing after ~6 years of development.

Also, in regards to guy above me, I love the detail that they go into on the history of the cars and the pristine look of the premium models, but it isn't enough given what other developers have done since GT4 released.

The question of what exactly they've been doing for the past 5 years, in my opinion (and that of many others) still stands as a valid one.

And again to ANFD, fanboyish, apologist opinions don't bother me in the slightest. By all means, have one. It'd just be good if you didn't clog up the forums with it.

 

[bodger]

The question of what exactly they've been doing for the past 5 years, in my opinion (and that of many others) still stands as a valid one.

GT PSP
GT HD
GT 5 Prologue

I think they did TT as well after GT4 didn't they?

They've come up with a new graphics and sim engine to run on the PS3 (after, I assume, having to learn the PS3 architecture), build all the models, build an online system and infrastructure, design the game mechanics, redo all the circuits, design the news ones. Test it all...etc....

Quite a bit actually it seems to me. Compared with the first attempt on the PS2 (GT3) there is much more content and completed to a much more detailed level.

I don't think this is a fair question. What they have been doing is on the disk - and the other disks they've released since 04. Hardly vapourware merchants.

 

[Ya Pops]

As for damage, it's just my opinon, I'm not going to change it at your insistence. Every 12 year old or lower who ever got a ride in my Playseat all immediately start backwards around the track simply to see cars and parts flying all over the place. The thousands of hours of entertainment and joy I got from playing GT, GT2, GT3, GT4 and Prologue wasn't dimminished in the least because they didn't have damage. I have owned every racing game ever made for the Playstation systems and still have over 100 in my collection. Many of them include damage. I am mildly entertained by it for the first 5 minutes, and then it seems that it does nothing to really add to the concept of applying driving skills and race strategy to what is supposed to be a game about racing.

Why do most of the 'I don't care about damage' crew always have to claim it's just for kids who want explosions or just come out with 'go play grid'?

Many also say 'I plan on driving cleanly so it doesn't matter'.. Try telling that to Jenson Button or Mark Webber who were both driving cleanly before getting taken out by Vettel's mistakes.
The point is s*** happens in racing whether it's your fault or not.

Yes, it's a game about racing. And crash damage occurs in racing.
Wallriding cars with no consequence rarely does.

The real driving simulator needs to provide more than decent driving physics to deserve that title.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

You're just going to have to live with the fact that we all have opinions and we're all entitled to them .... sorry you're so threatened by my tongue in cheek comment. The point of which was that PD tried to implement too much stuff in too little time at the last moment possibly due to pressure from a contingent I wouldn't consider die hard GT fanatics.

As for damage, it's just my opinon, I'm not going to change it at your insistence. Every 12 year old or lower who ever got a ride in my Playseat all immediately start backwards around the track simply to see cars and parts flying all over the place. The thousands of hours of entertainment and joy I got from playing GT, GT2, GT3, GT4 and Prologue wasn't dimminished in the least because they didn't have damage. I have owned every racing game ever made for the Playstation systems and still have over 100 in my collection. Many of them include damage. I am mildly entertained by it for the first 5 minutes, and then it seems that it does nothing to really add to the concept of applying driving skills and race strategy to what is supposed to be a game about racing.

Once again, my opinion .... sorry .... live with it

Love this reply baby. 👍

What else could I have expected, from the land of Awesome Bill.


EDIT: My biggest concern about this game has come to fruition. In an effort to have all these new features in the game, they appear to, except maybe the physics, not have done most of them very well, whereby satisfying hardly anyone, and at the cost of the core GT experience.

 

[singh-5abi]

someone on the management team at PD screwed up big time. seems like game took 6 months to develop not 5 yrs.

 

[Uscbryan]

This debate is funny stuff. Sounding like my father here but "when I was a kid..." I played astroids on an Atari 2600. How was that for graphics. And we thought it was the most awesome thing since sliced bread! Spent hours doing nothing more than thrusting and shooting (that didn't sound right) but it was great. But i guess the gaming industry sets expectations so high that they can never please everybody. GT5 isn't perfect but then again its game. Life isn't perfect and it is real! For me the car feels real. The driving feels real. Graphics are great but i don't spend time analyzing them. I'm too busy driving. damage would be cool. But it not being there doesn't make the game useless. I know when I hit that wall that it was a stupid thing to do whether or not it shows on the car or not.

 

[ANFD]

please samdavis .... get off your pedastal and get over yourself.

I thought I was through contributing to this but I am now in the position of eating a little crow

I have been very critical of certain elements and basically agree with what most have complained about. However, I just had a GT experience that brought back the emotional highs of days gone by. I don't know how many of you have done the "Dreamcar Championship" but it is everything I have been looking for.

The grid is made up of many of the LM cars that we have grown to love (Fairlady Z Concept LM, 350Z Concept LM, GT-R Concept LM, RX-8 Concept LM, RX-7 Concept LM, Ford GTLM Spec II Race Car, NSX-R Prototype LM, XJ220 LM, and just for fun, they've thrown in the XJR-9 LM Castrol Jaguar). All of the cars, with the exception of the XJR-9 are very equally matched and any of them can win the Championship. The XJR-9 Castrol Jag however has 25 or 30MPH advantage on the straights which makes things interesting.

The 10 lap races gives you time to test the Jag's weaknesses and quantify its advantages. You will need to do this if you expect to beat it. At the Indy Oval, lapped traffic even plays a part in the outcome. The Monza race is in the rain and here was the biggest surprise .... the handling physics with these cars in this event in the rain is so perfect and spot on, it totally blew my mind. I have not been impressed at all with some of the lower lever rain races, especially the way they're rendered in night time, but this daytime Monza race was worth the $60 by itself. The track selection in this event is perfect also. The Jag eats you up on straights at La Sarthe, the Ring & Indy and you have to drive mistake free if you expect to beat it. There is a surprise for you in the Tokyo race I won't divulge and the 3 lap Nurburgring race uses the 24 hour track incorporating the GP circuit as well.

It pays 374,000 credits to win and gives you the extended version of the ending movie. This movie is about 15 minutes long and takes you around most of the Ring which really gives you a feeling for the atmosphere when you see all the campers along the side of the track. This is followed by a ride through night time Tokyo (I'm guessing) of the sections making up the SSR tracks. Also, the win gave me the Ford GTLM Spec II Test Car ... finally, a prize car worth having

If updates to events can reproduce the kind of competition this event offers, we are all in for a treat and I owe Kaz an apology

 

[gtracedriver]

They alreadly said it couple of time if they wanted they could release it any time. IMO they could have sold GT4 HD on PSN and disk for 30$ or so and would have made more money. May be that would be good for them as well everyone Moreover GT5 was released 4yrs after PS3 💡

 

[airborn007]

GT5 is pretty much a new game w/ 200 cars and w/ standard cars imported from gt4.

 

[Tenacious D]

Sure, there were things it didn't do, but that's not what we were talking about while people were demanding what games do this and that and do it better than GT5... no TDLM didn't do it better than GT5, but for the time and the hardware I would say it was MORE impressive than GT5 and certainly was more grundbreaking. BTW talk about a small production house and budget...

Okay okay, I geddit, TDLM is awesome sauce to you. I'll address all this "forward thinking" stuff presently.

(concerning Course Maker) Well unlike you I am not looking forward to it, I have already done it... and while I certainly haven't cranked out 100,000 tracks, I can tell you that it has yet to make anything I find really interesting or good. (blah blah)... I mean you can't even do tracks crossinng over each other or full 360 roundabouts... so count out anything like Cape Ring or Sazuka.

There is a difference between "I don't like it" and "It's no good" though. There is quite a bit of activity on the Course Maker boards, so evidently it's a cool feature for many of us, even if we can't make our own Spa. The system is even used in the Rally races, and I've enjoyed them a lot, even if they were a pain sometimes. My point seems much stronger than yours.

I knew about the failure of (GT4 Online), I just didn't know the details...

Oh no you didn't, you neener.

As for online, it was as much a matter of the time the game was released as anything else whether it had good online or not... even then didn't the Japanese one (edit: GT4) have online or something?

Anyway...

We can talk about what might come and be patched in all you like but after all the hype created by denialists for GT5's relesae is that really such a good idea? Haven't all those "it could be an old build" or "he's a perfectionist, you wait and see!" taught anyone a lesson?

It depends on what you're saying here. See, none of us expected GT5 to have as many issues as all the other racers out these days. So every game has had massive things that made them all seem as if they're rushed out the door. People threw fits at NFS Shift because of bouncing race cars and dozens of other issues. People threw fits at Dirt and Grid because the sim aspects faded to vapor and dozens of other issues. People threw fits at Supercar Challenge because it was mostly an expansion pack for Ferrari Challenge, and messed up much of what FC did right, along with dozens of other issues. People threw fits at F1 2010 because of a whole slew of things. People threw fits at Forza 3 because of broken online, hideous file handling, broken photo system and a whole slew of the usual Forza flaws. And of course, with GT5 people are whining about all kinds of things, like not being able to change the wheels on Standards - and at the same time, many of them hating the available wheels!

I honestly can't think of a racing game released over the past three years that anyone but the diehardest of fans really liked without question. Heck, Turn 10 quit discussing Forza 2 on the boards a few months before release because most of the promised features were taken out.

Yeah, I was with many of the true believers here who thought, "Oh well, GT5 will be way better." But there's a problem with "better" that's entirely subjective and individual, which I'm getting to shortly.

Honestly, if I had a BC PS3 and could play GT4 on it, I would be pretty hard pressed to shell out for GT5 knowing what I know now... very few things GT5 does are WAY better than what GT4 would have done upscaled and where it fails are far more common.

This is where I have a problem with you. You add in things which are pure fantasy as if they have any bearing, which almost always, they don't.

What we have in the real world are GT4 and GT5. And Prologue and Forza 2 and 3, for the sake of base covering, but let's stick with Gran Turismo for a sec. Okay, now you have what is arguably the best Gran Turismo on PS1 or 2, versus the latest and greatest Gran Turismo on PS3. GT4 has (plus sides only):

• More tracks, and the best Nurburgring until now
• More races
• A better used car lot
• More tuning options - more wheels, a range of brakes, transmission tuning doesn't have to be unlocked, etc
• More sensible prizes, multiple prize wins, and a better economy

And that's about all my bleary mind can come up with. While GT5 offers:

• Much better graphics, shadows and rain aliasing aside
• Much better physics, with much better tire dynamics
• Much better car models, including Standards, and better track models, and new tracks
• More cars - say it with me: "WE LOVE CARS!"
• Cockpits in Premium cars, that by the way look realistic
• Race Mod on select cars
• Damage which, okay, is getting sorted
• The best Nurburgring in gaming, including the whole complex
• Better A.I.
• Course Maker, and a bunch of ever changing Rally tracks
• Weather and time of day transitions
• Much better Photo Mode
• More kinds of racing with Karting and Nascar
• Online play and features
• Trophies, which I'm personally like "whatever"
• Improvements via patching
• Potential for DLC, which most likely is coming, but if not is fine with me

And I'm getting tired, so there.

Anyway, I don't know about you, but when I think of playing GT4, I say to myself, "Self... not for a year or so."

I have said it before, picking a list of accomplishments and saying "who does this better" is silly, you can do it with any game:

Gee... seems like you do it whenever it suits an argument.

And when it comes to comparing the apples and watermellons of other racing games, just what are we supposed to do? "I like Forza 3 better because... uhm... oh, no reason."

See how far that gets you. And it's like I posted earlier. People have said, "If only Gran Turismo had some competition..." or "Anyone could make a better game than GT5." Or something.

Well, since the console racing thing started fairly seriously with Sega and Electronic Arts, we've seen Codemasters, Konami, Microsoft, Eutechnyx and a few dozen others give it a shot. The only other game with any real traction in the market is Forza, and it's GT Lite. And it seems to have as many enemies as friends for a number of reasons, but one is that Turn 10 manages to seriously break things in every release. It's why I quit playing each Forza after several months, except for F3 which only lasted two.

If "forward thinking" made TDLM so awesome... what happened? Did all game makers drop the idea? Or is it possible that it's just SO freaking hard to make a game like GT5 that no one does it? This isn't a trick question. Turn 10 makes a huge effort, and makes a Forza every two or so years that has major issues, much more than "I can't put rims on all my cars." And has half or fewer features that GT5 does over the course of seven years of development.

Again, we were talking about how groundbreaking GT5 is and I will reiterate that the vast majority of what GT5 is not groundbreaking... sure it's bringing together a lot of features but so do a lot of games. That in and of itself is not grundbreaking, it's just good reuse of someone elses groundbreaking functions.

I think you've completely forgotten that Kazunori and Gran Turismo is the groundbreaker, and that every other game is reusing GT's groundbreaking features. If you take away the livery editor from Forza, what do you have? A poor GT wannabe which is heavy in supercars. Sure, this is my opinion, but just think about it.

By the way, this is how you criticize GT5:

Poor Online (Matchmaking/Credits/Qualifying)
Cockpits/Shadows worst than GT5P.
AI is still Poor(Look to F12010)
Poor Implementation of the weather.(look to F12010)
A Spec needs a complete overhaul(Tedious pointless events, LV, Lack of Money)
Way to many models of the same car.
Karting not exploited to its full potential.(Would be Nice to race on Kart tracks or even a championship for money)
Course maker way to simplistic.
Rally needs more variety like the real WRC.

Overall the fundamentals of the game are good, just the implementaion of them fundamentals are poor.

Its a shame because if Kaz made it a better game with the sim element he could of had a masterpiece.

I think it still is, but we'll see what they do with it over the course of 2011.
One more edit and then I'm through. Something I'm surprised more people don't demand is a more comprehensive data tracking system. Races should have records, as should tracks (record laps), separately. The leaderboards of Prologue need to return, even though I wasn't a big leaderboard guy. And... well, about to fall asleep, better get outta here.

What some forget as well, is that this isn't a solid 6 years of development, they've had a lot of other things out the door since 2004.

Quoted for truth.

(wall of text)

Having said all of this, I'm getting strong feelings from the Forza side of the fence. Some people laugh off GT criticism by saying it's meant to have something for everyone, it's just meant to be the game for a general avid racing/car fan. But this is hardly the truth, Forza might not have the same level of physics or graphics but it's overall, a much more polished product (snip)

Just by looking at Forza 3 next to GT5 I feel as though Forza has been released with the utmost care from everyone involved in its creation.

Oh my GAWD!

Sorry, but you have no clue. I mean, seriously, you can't have done more than toot around in some cars, if you've even done that. Yes, if you just want to tear around in some cars with friends while paying for MS's craptastic Live Gold, it can be a blast. Drifting is easier than real life, so you can pretty much drift forever when you get the hang of it.

The MS wheel sucks so bad, they quit making it. I dealt with it, but it sure wasn't worth the $150 they originally sold it for. And you have to pony up quite a bit for a Fanatec.

Yes, forza 3 has 500 cars, because they port their car models from previous games, including Forza 1 on the XBox. Flaws and all. Like, when you add front aero to the Ford GT, the right whisker vane is missing. The cars from F1 have the same livery painting issues as they did originally. Some have new ones! And they couldn't bother to fix this in six or seven years?

Things just don't work right. Forza 1 crashed periodically on my new XBox, and this was after it had been out for more than a year. You could only save 32 replays on a freaking hard drive! In fact, I had so many problems with it, I got on the Forza boards and ranted for a day about them. But I dealt with it, thinking that Forza 2 would be the real deal.

No. The livery editor was broken, and layers would shift around just taking a car out for a photo shoot. Graphics were marginally better, in some cases worse. The game would crash scrolling through your garage, or lists of cars in the Auction House. And this could get you a permaban from Live. But I dealt with it, thinking that Forza 3 would be the real deal.

No. The file system is awful, and if you have any decent photo or decal library, the sorting crawls. Photo sharing is SO bad, that it took me four or five HOURS just to get some pics taken, sorted, uploaded to the Forza site, only to have them compressed to the point they were essentially unfixable. And the mostly well designed online system of Forza 2 was discarded in a sandbox minefield of random matching. And they couldn't even add one more car on track, even with reducing detail on the bot cars. There's more, but it has been a year.

Forza is a nice idea - basically rip off Gran Turismo and improve it here or there. But if you do more than drive around or share cars, you can expect headaches with every game they make.

Seriously, if GT5 had the problems Forza has, people would fly to Japan to riot in front of SONY. I know that GT5 has things that need tending to, but you have to have lived with Forza for years as some of us have to understand what pain really is.

 

[RWB1213]

PD-

Recommendations for GT6 development, in no particular order . . .

1. If you are serious about single player events, you have to make a serious advance in modelling/improving your AI. You also need to revamp your A-Spec game progression- the progression you provided now feels shallow and stale. Implement a new approach . . . I'm not suggesting you copy another format but for example, Forza 3's event list showed you visually all the events your current car is eligible to race in- this is really handy. Other titles (Codemasters) rely on a career progression . . . come on, give us something other than a stale interface.

2. Don't play the car count game, we don't need 18 versions of the Mazda MX-5/Miata/Eunos. Give us the original or concept, and the two other most compelling versions. The number of Skylines in GT5 is ridiculous in a bad way.

3. Model all cars at a standard-high resolution. Don't sell me on the idea that GT5 has 200 "premium" cars. They should be "standard," as we all know GT5"standard" cars are actually "sub-standard."

4. Courses- as many as you can license and model. Tracks make the title. If you gave us 1000 cars and 1 track, we'd be done with the title very quickly. If you gave us one car and 1000 tracks we would play much longer. I know there is a balance which everyone can be happy with concerning cars vs tracks. For the record, I expected GT5 to include all the tracks from the history of GT (fictional and otherwise.) It does not, rather we have a really mediocre track designer. Give me SPA and Bathhurst and keep your designer.

5. B-Spec . . . I'm not that deep into my B-Spec gaming, but I can tell you that the experience is really bland and vague. Am I training a driver? Am I coaching a driver? What is the "game" here? Is the timing of my instructions important? How does the hot and cold really effect the driver? Why should I feel compelled to develop this driver? As I understand it, we only receive half credit for these races . . . not very compelling. How about training an avatar by driving ourselves? Forza had it and ditched it . . . Training a driver we could use online in this fashion would be ground breaking . . . Think of a "cup" style racing series where you tune the car, and your avatar drives the car. Now that would be compelling. Button mashing instructions to a driver without tangible feedback is lame.

6. Online is key, and GT5 is behind the times. Need to award in game credit for online races. Need a robust and easy to use lobby system with a point system. GT5 has public lobbies, so kudos for that (shame on you T10.) Need to be able to invite friends. I like the message board for the lounge. The race configuration options appear adequate, and you can use free run for qualifying which is nice, but you gotta match options with Forza 3 in this catagory. Don't let any driver "Start Race"-- this should be a host only option, or better yet, put a timer on it and let racers vote to start the race.

7. Only include weather if you can achieve a perfect game in the dry without sacrifice.

There is something really sweet about the driving dynamics in GT5. I really like the fact that driving smooth/fast demands serious attention to the corner entry and braking zones- too many games (including Forza 3) have dumbed this part of racing way down. I tend to gauge the quality of the experience on how a driving game behaves when all "assists" are off. GT5 delivers in this respect . . . zero out your traction control and abs and watch GT5 shine. Without assists, GT5 will show you how prepared you are to race your 800hp Skyline.

 

[bodger]

someone on the management team at PD screwed up big time. seems like game took 6 months to develop not 5 yrs.

And what are you basing your estimate of 6 months on?

I would like to see a team (no matter what size) do a game of this size and quality in 6 months.

 

[jergto]

Mediocre is not an 8.3 out of 10.

That is a mediocre rating in my book. I know it generally means a 5 out of 10, but this game isn't a 5.
I applaud Gamespot for recently reviewing gt5 and giving it a 8.0. LOL

I sure hope PD wakes up!

 

[xNEVER-ONEx]

That is a mediocre rating in my book. I know it generally means a 5 out of 10, but this game isn't a 5.
I applaud Gamespot for recently reviewing gt5 and giving it a 8.0. LOL

I sure hope PD wakes up!

Some gamespot's gripes were stupid imo (like bad soundtrack and a large initial install), but ya, they got it pretty right. Also, they felt that by focusing so much on the premium models, they might have neglected some other areas of the game.

 

[Devedander]

Okay okay, I geddit, TDLM is awesome sauce to you.

Nope, it was awesome across the board... to me, to the multiple reviewers (who gave it darn near perfect scores) and I even provided a video to show how good it was (considering the time it was out).

Again, that's not just my personal opinion, it's backed up by as much fact as such a claim can be. Not something you can do with your claims.

There is a difference between "I don't like it" and "It's no good" though.

I know, that's why I said I don't like it AND gave reasons why it's not very good. It's not "no good" but it's not very impressive and hardly something I look forward to making a ton of awesome tracks on.

My point seems much stronger than yours.

To you I am sure it does.

Oh no you didn't, you neener.

Sure I did, I read about it when a while ago, just didn't remember the details, though they tried and it didn't work, didn't realize it as officially a beta.

Anyway...

Yeah... or something? As in they did at some point, I remember they did... what were the details?

I mean I am in the US where we never had GT4 online at all, do you think I just made that up out of nowhere that I thought the Japanese did at some point?

It depends on what you're saying here.

What I have been saying the whole time... GT5 is not super groundbreaking... it's not doing a whole lot of new things... it's pulling together a lot of things reasonbly well but the level of impressiveness relative to some other games of the past isn't so impressive.

See, none of us expected GT5 to have as many issues as all the other racers out these days. So every game has had massive things that made them all seem as if they're rushed out the door.

No, every game has problems, glitches and questionable mechanices... GT5 has a massive bevvy of obvious shortcomings that scream rushed and unfinished. It's one thing to be a too bumpy of a ride, or the game balance is set to a little too arcady, it's anotehr to have the very game layout be obiously stretched and full of bad choices.

I honestly can't think of a racing game released over the past three years that anyone but the diehardest of fans really liked without question. Heck, Turn 10 quit discussing Forza 2 on the boards a few months before release because most of the promised features were taken out.

Yup and yet none of them were hyped as hard or as long or with quite the tennacity as GT5 only to miss SO much and have most of what's in only half way implimented often with hefty performance penalties.

This is where I have a problem with you. You add in things which are pure fantasy as if they have any bearing, which almost always, they don't.

Citation needed.

GT4 has (plus sides only):

• More tracks, and the best Nurburgring until now
• More races
• A better used car lot
• More tuning options - more wheels, a range of brakes, transmission tuning doesn't have to be unlocked, etc
• More sensible prizes, multiple prize wins, and a better economy

More events is a huge one as they are necessary for the meat of the game to function properly. More polished and even overall experience (can't push how important that is). More depth (talking about what you can do with the cars and the tracks/ events). Split screen replays, replay speed control, b spec speed control, a huge list f playability issues GT4 gets the nod.

Less or no boneheaded decisions that make no sense and oddly less stupidly redundant menus which really do get grating quickly.

As for this list:

• Much better graphics, shadows and rain aliasing aside - Better graphics are given with the generational gap, to NOT have better would be a huge failure. And a large percent of the cars and tracks aren't even that much better.
  
• Much better physics, with much better tire dynamics - Yes and this is the trick that the PD pony has always been good at. Given. However still no tire deformation and brake fade.
  
• Much better car models, including Standards, and better track models, and new tracks - Considering the genrational gap I would say 80% of the car models are relatively worse. They were ahead of their time for PS2, they are behind the times for PS3.
  
• More cars - say it with me: "WE LOVE CARS!" - But 80% of the cars are subpar and aside from upscaling unchanged from GT4... in fact they are crippled compared to GT4!
  
• Cockpits in Premium cars, that by the way look realistic - Yes cockpits are great! However only on 230 of the cars... compared to GT4's cars which were all the best of the best at the time.
  
• Race Mod on select cars - Nice for sure wish there were more.
  
• Damage which, okay, is getting sorted - Count it when it's there. No counting chickens that are still eggs.
  
• The best Nurburgring in gaming, including the whole complex - Console gaming.
  
• Better A.I. - Which is amazing still very similar in quality to TDLM.... a 10 year old game.
  
• Course Maker, and a bunch of ever changing Rally tracks - more is not always better.
  
• Weather and time of day transitions - limited and which often bring framerate to it's knees and rain not available in split screen
  
• Much better Photo Mode - This is done so well makes me wonder if PD shouldn't jus tswitch genres to the car porn market instead... this is the onlyh part of the game that is truly well done and virtually problem free.
  
• More kinds of racing with Karting and Nascar - I consider them token events... 1 kart and only 2 official Nascar tracks... and no NASCAR road tracks.
  
• Online play and features - Which by todays standards are pretty bad. At least in GT4s time no online was reasonable and acceptable... now bad online is a failure, not just acceptable.
  
• Trophies, which I'm personally like "whatever" - Same.... nice to see, no big deal, every game (literally) has them.
  
• Improvements via patching - the other side to this sword obviously being no pressure to polish the game before release
  
• Potential for DLC, which most likely is coming, but if not is fine with me- Unless it's free, after 6 years I feel like it's paying for what you should have gotten

And I'm getting tired, so there.

Anyway, I don't know about you, but when I think of playing GT4, I say to myself, "Self... not for a year or so."

Gee... seems like you do it whenever it suits an argument.

Only when I am showing how facecious it is to do so.

TDLM I listed only becuase the things it did were actually groundbreaking for it's time... not just a list of what this particular game does that we have seen before, a list of all the thing the game does that are amazing and bar raising. When you look at the list of what GT5 does now, then look 10 years ago and see what TDLM did, it's really hard to say GT5 is amazingly groundbreaking in any way.

And when it comes to comparing the apples and watermellons of other racing games, just what are we supposed to do? "I like Forza 3 better because... uhm... oh, no reason."

If you are stating what you like then yes, give a list of reasons. If you are stating why something is better or more groundbreaking, a list of personal accomplishments for said game doesn't do much.

Well, since the console racing thing started fairly seriously with Sega and Electronic Arts, we've seen Codemasters, Konami, Microsoft, Eutechnyx and a few dozen others give it a shot. The only other game with any real traction in the market is Forza, and it's GT Lite.

There is a huge benefit to being first to market and doing it well... you becomme a very well seated encumbant. It's the same reason why regardless of how good a soda you make you will be hard pressed to steal business from coke or pepsi and how good a painkiller you make the big brands won't be worried much.

If "forward thinking" made TDLM so awesome... what happened? Did all game makers drop the idea? Or is it possible that it's just SO freaking hard to make a game like GT5 that no one does it?

Well memory is a bit rusty (kind of like the Japan online thing) but I believe the game didn't do well because the US market doesn't care about Lemans, the DC was getting pirated hard, the PS2 was hyping a lot of the business away (as is the way with Sony and it's products) and Melbourne house I think got integrated into EA somewhere and went on to do other big name games... check my facts for me, I might be remembering wrong but that's what I seem to recall happening.

This isn't a trick question. Turn 10 makes a huge effort, and makes a Forza every two or so years that has major issues, much more than "I can't put rims on all my cars." And has half or fewer features that GT5 does over the course of seven years of development.

I think you meant rhetorical question and yes it was and no it didn't work like you thought it would.

I think you've completely forgotten that Kazunori and Gran Turismo is the groundbreaker, and that every other game is reusing GT's groundbreaking features. If you take away the livery editor from Forza, what do you have? A poor GT wannabe which is heavy in supercars. Sure, this is my opinion, but just think about it.

Actually no I am remembering that Kaz and GT WERE groundbreaking... they have been riding that same broken ground this whole time with the exception of photomode. Groundbreaking is something you do once, when you do it again, you aren't groundbreaking again, you are just doing it again. Sliced bread was groundbreaking, slicking it a little thinner isn't groundbreaking again.

Actually strip the livery editor and Forza is a game which has strived to pick up where GT stagnated and run quite well with it... it's a game that actually impliments mechanical damage and offers a wider path to progress through the career as well as lots of tuning options (including individual gear ratios and final drive). You severely undersell Forza as much as you oversell GT5.

By the way, this is how you criticize GT5:

No I criticize GT5 a lot on the back of the hype and promises of Ky and PD and the long dev time and I criticize it on it's plethora of poor design choices and obvious unfinished portions.

People say GT5 is like the GT3 of the PS3 while GT6 will be the GT4... so what was GT5P then? Shouldn't THAT have been the GT3 of PS3?

I criticize GT5 a lot for ultimately charging us for 3 games before we get the real full one (and that's assuming GT6 really is all that which is a big assumption).

 

[Kryz11]

To me , 200 plus super detail cars is well worth the wait. super great physics to all cars. No other console game has so much realism. snow, rain, dark, day, it has it all! maybe not all maps, but it might with patches. and damage is coming in patch, so i dont mind waiting a week longer. Not to mention ONLINE is great! No stupid match making, its easy to join your friends and do practice runs, or races.

Best racing game ever!

5 years worth