a different tale from vicitims of katrina

[JacktheHat]

I'm sorry, this is not a Federal issue in the slightest. This had very little to do with the Bush Administration. This was a local and state issue that was bungled. If you understood the way our government worked, you'd know the federal governement can't move into a state until the governer of said state ASKS for the help.

It's beyond obvious that if the local authorities were better prepared, we wouldn't have seen near as many people dead or standed. That's a no brainer. But it's easier to blame the federal Government because

And if you understood the scale of the disaster you would realise that none of those things were important. Who cares whose fault it was? The US government should have declared it a public emergency and taken control of the situation.

 

[FoolKiller]

And if you understood the scale of the disaster you would realise that none of those things were important. Who cares whose fault it was? The US government should have declared it a public emergency and taken control of the situation.

That would be illegal/unconstitutional because it is an extension of power the federal government does not have.

 

[JacktheHat]

That would be illegal/unconstitutional because it is an extension of power the federal government does not have.

Where as the inaction taken was immoral and unethical...

 

[Swift]

And if you understood the scale of the disaster you would realise that none of those things were important. Who cares whose fault it was? The US government should have declared it a public emergency and taken control of the situation.

I'm sorry, for a second it sounded like you were an American. Anyway, the local and state gov't had DAYS of warning to do something and didn't. They also DIDN'T ask for help for days. So the federal governments hands were tied. There is a reason that the federal government just can't come in and "take over". We got that from before the revolutionary war...

 

[FoolKiller]

Where as the inaction taken was immoral and unethical...

Whose inaction? The pre-hurricane, ignoring all the plans inaction or the post-hurricane following the law inaction? Had President Bush just sent troops into New Orleans without permission he would have been impeached and troops still wouldn't have gone in.

 

[JacktheHat]

Whose inaction? The pre-hurricane, ignoring all the plans inaction or the post-hurricane following the law inaction? Had President Bush just sent troops into New Orleans without permission he would have been impeached and troops still wouldn't have gone in.

Sure, that's exactly what would have happened. Who would have impeached Bush for saving lives?

 

[FoolKiller]

Sure, that's exactly what would have happened. Who would have impeached Bush for saving lives?

The same ones who blamed him for Katrina's existence. Are you aware of the current political divide in the US right now? People are watching and waiting for the slightest reason to throw Bush out of power. By the time they were done it wouldn't be about saving lives, it would be about Bush breaking the law and assuming dictatorial power.

 

[JacktheHat]

The same ones who blamed him for Katrina's existence. Are you aware of the current political divide in the US right now? People are watching and waiting for the slightest reason to throw Bush out of power. By the time they were done it wouldn't be about saving lives, it would be about Bush breaking the law and assuming dictatorial power.

And that's so much more important than saving people...

 

[Swift]

And that's so much more important than saving people...

You don't get it. It's a matter of law. We can't just supercede the constitution when we feel like it. All parties involved knew about the laws and processes that need to go through before federal aid can be used. If they REALLY wanted it, the governer could have called state of emergency BEFORE the hurricane hit and got federal assistance from day 1, but he didn't.

I'm so bored of people blaming Bush when it's obvious that the bulk of the garbage was not his fault.

 

[FoolKiller]

And that's so much more important than saving people...

Are you aware that the power of the president is limited by the laws of our country? Did you miss where I said that he does NOT have control over the National Guard troops unless they are turned over to him by the governors of the states in which they reside? There are laws in place to ensure that there is never a dictatorship in this country and any reason given to allow those laws to be broken creates a dangerous loophole.

There were mistakes that cost lives but the federal government is the least responsible for them. Local authorities prevented supplies from getting in and turned away people who showed up with boats to help lead rescue efforts. The first rescues were made by people who went out without notifying the authorities and media reporters with boats.

 

[BlackZ28]

READ THIS LETTER FROM A SHERRIF'S DEPUTY

Letter from a Sheriff's Deputy
Name understandably not included for fear of his job and life.

Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 15:34:17 -0400

I am a Sheriff's Deputy who is part of Homeland Security and Emergency
Preparedness in the New Orleans MSA.

Mayor Nagin has been speaking furiously about the lack of everything
from the State and Federal Government.

Here is some info:

1. There are two States here. Louisiana and the City of New
Orleans/Orleans Parish. Always has been and always will be. When a
State Law passes, Law Makers ALWAYS write whether Orleans Parish will
allow the Law or not.

2. When the MSA (Metropolitan Statistical Area) meets for Disaster
Planning and Equipment Purchases (6 times a year for the last 15 years),
we all agree how we will spend the Federal Money as a team since we are
in this together. Orleans DEMANDS they will choose how they will spend
their portion.

3. During Communication Infrastructure Planning we ALL (N.O. MSA)
purchased Satellite Phones. We all pay several hundred dollars a month
as a "Just In Case Measure". Orleans said their Infrastructure was TOP
NOTCH and the money would be better spent on Ford F-150 Pickup Trucks.
I dunno what they bought, but it wasn't sat phones.

4. The looting, Rape (Newly Wedded European Woman who was raped and
beaten as well as MANY others), etc. That is life in New Orleans. Why
people find New Orleans a romantic, cherishable place is beyond 90% of
all Louisianians. It is Hot, it Stinks, None of us even go into New
Orleans without a sidearm and we prefer to leave our women at home.
Rape's, thefts, and murder in New Orleans are as common as a High Speed
pursuit in California.

5. When we enter New Orleans to issue an arrest warrant, the SCAT
(Street Crime Arrest Team) is ALWAYS present. Me and/or other officers
have been part of 18 arrests in New Orleans and been shot at 17 times.
11 of those were with AK-47's and 3 of those 11 had two 40-round clips
taped together.

6. Even before Mayor Naggin took office the Fed's and State were never
allowed to do anything to improve New Orleans. New Orleans ALWAYS
wanted the cash to do their own improvements, their way.

7. There was no way in Hell the State was gonna make a move until New
Orleans asked for help. There was No way in Hell the Fed's were gonna
make a move until the Governor asked for help. That is Law.

8. The people looting and shooting have it better than ever. Those
areas are known for people living in crappy homes without electricity.
Now they have some flood water in their home. They stole guns, ammo and
food. They have never had it so good and don't want to leave.

9. The people whining the loudest about racisim are the same people who
always whined about racisim.

10. Jefferson Parish President Aaron Broussard declared martial law
Monday Night. Mayor Ray Naggin didn't want to alienate any refugees and
allowed all this to happen. We sent officers in to help. As a report
of an officer being shot and supplies and boat stolen we BEGGED Mayor
Naggin to pass Martial Law. NOPE!!!!!!!!!!!!! After 2 days, Our
department left New Orleans to die, then Mayor Naggin decided to declare
Martial Law.

In our own Parish, we have arrest several refugees. We have recovered
stolen Corvettes, Escalades, Mercedes Benz, BMW's, etc. A young black
female ran over one of our officers. She was driving a Nissan with a
VIN from an Oldsmobile 88 and a Plate from Alabama registered to a Ford
Van. An elderly white man died because our Hospital was unable to fill
his Oxygen Bottle. Refugees have stolen an EMS Generator at the Mobile
Command Center. Refugees have stolen an Entergy Truck trying to restore
power. Most Parishes are out of gas at all stations and most of us
cannot drive to work. All gas stations have a 15-20 minute wait for
gas. Some stations are selling only 2 gallons per customer. One
station raised prices to $5.64 a gallon. The owner refused to lower
prices, we promptly hooked him in the cuffs and dumped him in jail.
There is tons more.

Mayor Nagin had years and so did his predessessor's to prepare, but they
refused and they refused everyone elses help. Now he is *****ing
because no one is coming and everything is falling apart.

The media is asking why was the State and Fed's not prepared, New
Orleans NEVER allowed us to hold drills. All other Parishes and Baton
Rouge have drills just for this. The media is asking why no help is
coming for the dead. Their Dead, we are only worried about the living.
We are tying the dead to a tree or pushing them aside in an attempt to
save the living.

I say, if you want out, we'll get you out. You wanna stay, then stay.
I think we should let New Orleans die and REBUILD the National
Infrastructure somewhere other than a damn Bowl.

 

[Swift]

^^^That's good stuff right there. It's a shame the situation got to that.

 

[Danoff]

Some stations are selling only 2 gallons per customer. One
station raised prices to $5.64 a gallon. The owner refused to lower
prices, we promptly hooked him in the cuffs and dumped him in jail.

That is so wrong. Throwing that guy in jail for selling gas is criminal. This cop should be thrown in jail.

 

[BlackZ28]

At times, when I was reading that, it was hard to believe this kind of stuff is still around in 05, in the US.

 

[Swift]

That is so wrong. Throwing that guy in jail for selling gas is criminal. This cop should be thrown in jail.

If that was a PRIVATELY owned station then why do the cops have the right to throw him in jail?

 

[FoolKiller]

If that was a PRIVATELY owned station then why do the cops have the right to throw him in jail?

Because it was price gouging, and whether you find it right, wrong, or immoral it is still illegal. Pretty much how any of that kind of stuff works. It might not have been right for him to have been arrested but he was breaking a law.

Don't argue with me on this, because I agree with you and Danoff, I was just explaining why he was arrested. I don't feel he should have been.

 

[Swift]

Because it was price gouging, and whether you find it right, wrong, or immoral it is still illegal. Pretty much how any of that kind of stuff works. It might not have been right for him to have been arrested but he was breaking a law.

Don't argue with me on this, because I agree with you and Danoff, I was just explaining why he was arrested. I don't feel he should have been.

Hmmm...then it's very obvious that I don't understand price gouging laws. Seriously, I didn't realize that the law could just step in and mess with them like that.

 

[FoolKiller]

Hmmm...then it's very obvious that I don't understand price gouging laws. Seriously, I didn't realize that the law could just step in and mess with them like that.

Pretty much he was selling higher than the market price and had raised his price quickly. They tend to look regionally more than locally and so when he broke around $3.25 he was breaking the law. Never mind the fact that by the laws of supply and demand his price was probably at value. Nor does it factor in that once he is out of gas he may not be in business for weeks and was trying to gain money for survival.

I am of the opinion that what he did should not be illegal, but it does make him a bit uncaring for his fellow man.

 

[Swift]

Pretty much he was selling higher than the market price and had raised his price quickly. They tend to look regionally more than locally and so when he broke around $3.25 he was breaking the law. Never mind the fact that by the laws of supply and demand his price was probably at value. Nor does it factor in that once he is out of gas he may not be in business for weeks and was trying to gain money for survival.

I am of the opinion that what he did should not be illegal, but it does make him a bit uncaring for his fellow man.

Well, that looks like pure supply and demand to me. Obviously the guy wasn't going to get gas for a LONG time so he was trying to get some cash to wait out the storm, as you said. But if it's the law...

 

[FoolKiller]

Well, that looks like pure supply and demand to me. Obviously the guy wasn't going to get gas for a LONG time so he was trying to get some cash to wait out the storm, as you said. But if it's the law...

...you get screwed.

 

[Danoff]

I am of the opinion that what he did should not be illegal, but it does make him a bit uncaring for his fellow man.

Does it? Or does it mean that he was making sure that only the people who really really wanted gas would get it - while others who didn't need it as much would not get it.

Is it better for him to run out of gas at an artificially low price and then not have anything for the seriously needy person who comes by, or is it better for many to be turned away by the price so that the potential for buying gas still exists.

I think what the guy was doing was good for the people of the area and that the government is infringing his rights.

 

[FoolKiller]

Does it? Or does it mean that he was making sure that only the people who really really wanted gas would get it - while others who didn't need it as much would not get it.

Is it better for him to run out of gas at an artificially low price and then not have anything for the seriously needy person who comes by, or is it better for many to be turned away by the price so that the potential for buying gas still exists.

I think what the guy was doing was good for the people of the area and that the government is infringing his rights.

I have been pondering this since I typed that and after some thought I have to agree with you. My initial statement was under the assumption that it was impeding evacuees trying to get away from the hurricane, but I realize now that this was after the hurricane. This was just people wanting gas for the sake of having gas.

Considering he was limiting people to two gallons he was also trying to fairly distribute the gas as much as possible. On average that would get you almost 40 miles for $11. He was actually making it so everyone could get to the next town or working gas station.

 

[BlackZ28]

Tis true. I'm sure he wasnt the only gas station open either, though.

 

[sicbeing]

If it wasn't for the people who filled up 20 different tanks of gas just to keep in their garage (which is a MAJOR hazard) then we wouldn't have been "running out of gas" (Which we never were in the first place)

 

[FoolKiller]

If it wasn't for the people who filled up 20 different tanks of gas just to keep in their garage (which is a MAJOR hazard) then we wouldn't have been "running out of gas" (Which we never were in the first place)

I witnessed a guy doing that as I was getting gas (because I needed it) the Wednesday after the hurricane hit. I gave him a look that let him know I thought he was an idiot. He actually turned so his back was facing me.

 

[Danoff]

Plus,

If the guy can't make any more profit than usual, he'll pack up and get out of town rather than brave the flood waters, disease, and looters to provide his service. I'd say his services may have been bought rather cheaply at $5/gal.

Let's say I sell apples in NO for 50 cents/apple prior to the hurricane. After the hurricane I up the price to something crazy... $25/apple. Lots of people won't buy my apples at that price. But some of them will - because they're starving. The only way for me to really tell how badly they want the apple is to see how much of their money they're willing to spend to get it.

Let's say the government forces me to keep selling them at 50 cents. At that rate one dude comes up after the hurricane and buys all of my apples for 50 cents. Now the starving people have nothing.

But let's say the government also forces me to ration the apples. Well then everyone who comes by will buy an apple (since they're only 50 cents) and soon I'll be out of them.

But even if I was getting another truckload of apples shortly and wouldn't run out if I limit everyone to one apple... I'm not going to open shop in a war zone for 50 cents an apple. Forget about it. I'm outta there. Then the starving people have nothing.

Notice how when the price is not high, the starving people have nothing. When the price is high, they have a chance to buy an apple.

 

[BlackZ28]

What if they're starving and dont have money?

 

[Danoff]

What if they're starving and dont have money?

Then only if the price is high does the store owner even have the option of charity. If his prices are held low he doesn't even have any apples left to consider giving away.

 

[sicbeing]

Who in there right mind of give away high priced gasoline?

 

[Danoff]

Who in there right mind of give away high priced gasoline?

Someone who was very sympathetic to someone's plight.