a different tale from vicitims of katrina

[sicbeing]

Someone who was very sympathetic to someone's plight.

I sure hope no one else would see the man giving away free gas, that'd probably be another riot all on its own.

 

[BlackZ28]

Then only if the price is high does the store owner even have the option of charity. If his prices are held low he doesn't even have any apples left to consider giving away.

Sometimes it's money over charity. This is why its illegal.

 

[Danoff]

Sometimes it's money over charity. This is why its illegal.

What? Did you not read anything I wrote? Making it illegal to raise prices results in a shortage in which case charity is IMPOSSIBLE - not to mention that it drives off suppliers.

 

[BlackZ28]

danoff, some people arent out here to help people. They're looking out for number one.

 

[Danoff]

danoff, some people arent out here to help people. They're looking out for number one.

That's fine. I just explained why that works quite well.

 

[Solid Fro]

After reading the past 3 pages, I get a feeling that Europeans do not understand how the United States government works.

 

[JacktheHat]

Are you aware that the power of the president is limited by the laws of our country? Did you miss where I said that he does NOT have control over the National Guard troops unless they are turned over to him by the governors of the states in which they reside? There are laws in place to ensure that there is never a dictatorship in this country and any reason given to allow those laws to be broken creates a dangerous loophole.

There were mistakes that cost lives but the federal government is the least responsible for them. Local authorities prevented supplies from getting in and turned away people who showed up with boats to help lead rescue efforts. The first rescues were made by people who went out without notifying the authorities and media reporters with boats.

So basically, Bush covering his own arse was more important than the people of New Orleans' lives?

Who cares what the law says when you people are in such peril? It didn't seem so important when he wanted to invade Afghanistan or Iraq....

 

[Solid Fro]

So basically, Bush covering his own arse was more important than the people of New Orleans' lives?

Where did you get that statement from FoolKiller's post? I didn't read anything about "Bush covering his own arse" in FoolKiller's explanation of how the US government works. You are just injecting your own agenda where it does not belong.

Who cares what the law says when you people are in such peril? It didn't seem so important when he wanted to invade Afghanistan or Iraq....

Can you tell me what "laws" were broken when the US liberated Afganastan and Iraq? What do you not understand about UN Resolution 1441?

 

[JacktheHat]

Where did you get that statement from FoolKiller's post? I didn't read anything about "Bush covering his own arse" in FoolKiller's explanation of how the US government works. You are just injecting your own agenda where it does not belong.

The same ones who blamed him for Katrina's existence. Are you aware of the current political divide in the US right now? People are watching and waiting for the slightest reason to throw Bush out of power. By the time they were done it wouldn't be about saving lives, it would be about Bush breaking the law and assuming dictatorial power.

Can you tell me what "laws" were broken when the US liberated Afganastan and Iraq? What do you not understand about UN Resolution 1441?

Click

 

[ledhed]

like we need more bull****e from radicals . The most important people were the MAYOR and the GOVERNOR . All rational people realise this . Missasippi was hit just as bad if not worse . Look at the difference. Hmmmm well DUH they had a plan ! Idiots and morons can blame Bush for everything. I choose to be constructive and blame him for what he could controll . I choose to blame those who actually earned blame . I dont think its neccessary to play politics over homeless people .

 

[Solid Fro]

So, let me get this straight. When the US does the right thing, it must be punished because it broke an UN law that contradicted another UN law?

Since the US broke the law, we must let the Taliban back into Afghanistan, let Al Qaeda back into Iraq, give Saddam his palaces, mass graves, and killing fields back, give back his illegal weapons of mass destruction and his SCUDs aimed at Israel, and reinstate the brutal dictators back into their reigns.

Right?



Back on topic...

 

[JacktheHat]

So, let me get this straight. When the US does the right thing, it must be punished because it broke an UN law that contradicted another UN law?

Since the US broke the law, we must let the Taliban back into Afghanistan, let Al Qaeda back into Iraq, give Saddam his palaces, mass graves, and killing fields back, give back his illegal weapons of mass destruction and his SCUDs aimed at Israel, and reinstate the brutal dictators back into their reigns.

Right?



Back on topic...

Wrong.


It was wrong for America to break the rules and invade Afghanistan and Iraq, BUT America seems to be under the impression that it was ok. If this WAS ok, then why was it NOT ok to do the same in New Orleans?


BTW, an interesting point to note is that the same companies that were awarded the rebuilding contracts in Iraq have been awarded the rebuilding contracts in..................





New Orleans.

 

[FoolKiller]

BTW, an interesting point to note is that the same companies that were awarded the rebuilding contracts in Iraq have been awarded the rebuilding contracts in..................

New Orleans.

I am not touching the Iraq/Afghanistan issue because this is a Katrina forum.

As for the contractors, it is easy to see that a company that is large enough to outbid its competitors on many government projects will most likely outbid them again and again. The keyword here is BID. Did you know it was a bidding process? Bidder with eth best proposal gets the job. In some cases we refused to let certain foreign companies bid because they are government run and their governments didn't want to help us until it gave them money.


Now, if you want to see how New Orleans should have prepared for Katrina look at how Galveston is preparing for Rita. They have buses lined up with drivers ready to go at a moment's notice. Did Bush order that? No, that was the job of the local authorities. The local authorities are also prepared to ask for federal assitance at a moments notice if they do get hit. That is how you prepare for a hurricane, not by waiting less than a day before it hit to evacuate and then waiting three days after to request the federal support you need.

 

[Swift]

Wrong.


It was wrong for America to break the rules and invade Afghanistan and Iraq, BUT America seems to be under the impression that it was ok. If this WAS ok, then why was it NOT ok to do the same in New Orleans?


BTW, an interesting point to note is that the same companies that were awarded the rebuilding contracts in Iraq have been awarded the rebuilding contracts in..................

New Orleans.

Saddam was in DIRECT violation of his terms of surrender. The US and UK were the only countries with enough guts to enforce the penalty.

Just because it wasn't popular, people want to call it illegal. I'm just remembering a guy named Hitler that WASN'T stopped when he could've been and we got the glory of WWII.

Anyway, Jack, you know don't know jack about the constitution and how the laws of this country work. Now, I don't know anything about the British government, but I don't make judgments and assumptions on my ignorance of your country.

Now, if you want to see how New Orleans should have prepared for Katrina look at how Galveston is preparing for Rita. They have buses lined up with drivers ready to go at a moment's notice. Did Bush order that? No, that was the job of the local authorities. The local authorities are also prepared to ask for federal assitance at a moments notice if they do get hit. That is how you prepare for a hurricane, not by waiting less than a day before it hit to evacuate and then waiting three days after to request the federal support you need.

Oh yeah! That's the SMART way to do it. Duh!

 

[Danoff]

I am not touching the Iraq/Afghanistan issue because this is a Katrina forum.

As for the contractors, it is easy to see that a company that is large enough to outbid its competitors on many government projects will most likely outbid them again and again. The keyword here is BID. Did you know it was a bidding process? Bidder with eth best proposal gets the job. In some cases we refused to let certain foreign companies bid because they are government run and their governments didn't want to help us until it gave them money.


Now, if you want to see how New Orleans should have prepared for Katrina look at how Galveston is preparing for Rita. They have buses lined up with drivers ready to go at a moment's notice. Did Bush order that? No, that was the job of the local authorities. The local authorities are also prepared to ask for federal assitance at a moments notice if they do get hit. That is how you prepare for a hurricane, not by waiting less than a day before it hit to evacuate and then waiting three days after to request the federal support you need.

^^ I like that.

Is it Bush who is responsible for organizing the evacuation efforts in Galveston, Florida, NO (again), and possibly Mississipi right now along with his many other very important responsibilities... or is it the job of the local government, the people who have been through the drills, know the bottlenecks, know where the poor performance was the last time they tried to evacuate, the folks who are close to the situation - who have gotten to personally know every resource that that city has to offer.

It is absurd... hang on let me get out the bold - absurd to think that our president would micromanage every single dissaster relief and evacuation situation. It's the job of the local government to be prepared, and it's the job of FEMA to step in when the local government asks them to to help with a devastated area.

The president is only responsible (where's that bold) ONLY responsible in that he appoints the management at FEMA along with many other government agencies. I'm not sure he even oversees that management, that may be congress' job.

I don't want my President to take his concentration off of the war in Iraq so that he can micromanage the evacuation of Beuamont and Gilchrist Texas for every random storm that heads their way.

 

[JacktheHat]

^^ I like that.

Is it Bush who is responsible for organizing the evacuation efforts in Galveston, Florida, NO (again), and possibly Mississipi right now along with his many other very important responsibilities... or is it the job of the local government, the people who have been through the drills, know the bottlenecks, know where the poor performance was the last time they tried to evacuate, the folks who are close to the situation - who have gotten to personally know every resource that that city has to offer.

It is absurd... hang on let me get out the bold - absurd to think that our president would micromanage every single dissaster relief and evacuation situation. It's the job of the local government to be prepared, and it's the job of FEMA to step in when the local government asks them to to help with a devastated area.

The president is only responsible (where's that bold) ONLY responsible in that he appoints the management at FEMA along with many other government agencies. I'm not sure he even oversees that management, that may be congress' job.

I don't want my President to take his concentration off of the war in Iraq so that he can micromanage the evacuation of Beuamont and Gilchrist Texas for every random storm that heads their way.

The weather system isn't random and Katrina is no storm.

 

[FoolKiller]

The weather system isn't random and Katrina is no storm.

Neither is Rita, it is expected to be Katrina sized, but Texas seems to be doing a darn good job of getting things set up on their own.

And while a weather system is not technically random it is very predictable either.

 

[Danoff]

The weather system isn't random and Katrina is no storm.

The weather system is technically "chaotic" not random - but I cosider that close enough. And Katrina is a storm... a hurricane is a storm.

 

[Swift]

The weather system isn't random and Katrina is no storm.

I'm sorry. but that was the funniest thing I've seen posted in a long time. The weather system does have a certain randomness to it. There are patterns but there is so much unpredictability in those patterns it's not funny. If you can predict for me right now how many tornados, to the number will hit the dust bowl next year, then you'll prove it's not random.

The weather system as a whole isn't random. And certain areas of the world are predisposed to certain types of extremes from the weather. But that still doesn't mean there isn't huge variable in there that makes weather prediction near impossible.

 

[JacktheHat]

I'm sorry. but that was the funniest thing I've seen posted in a long time. The weather system does have a certain randomness to it. There are patterns but there is so much unpredictability in those patterns it's not funny. If you can predict for me right now how many tornados, to the number will hit the dust bowl next year, then you'll prove it's not random.

The weather system as a whole isn't random. And certain areas of the world are predisposed to certain types of extremes from the weather. But that still doesn't mean there isn't huge variable in there that makes weather prediction near impossible.

And it doesn't mean that Katrina appeared out of nowhere.

 

[Danoff]

And it doesn't mean that Katrina appeared out of nowhere.

You're doing it in this thread too. Nobody said Katrian appeared out of nowhere. I challenge you to find one post that claims otherwise.

Totally 100% beside the point.

 

[Swift]

And it doesn't mean that Katrina appeared out of nowhere.

Thank you for proving our point the the local authorities had advanced warning about Katrina and could've done something about it to get the people to safety.

I appreciate that.

 

[JacktheHat]

You're doing it in this thread too. Nobody said Katrian appeared out of nowhere. I challenge you to find one post that claims otherwise.

ta da

I don't want my President to take his concentration off of the war in Iraq so that he can micromanage the evacuation of Beuamont and Gilchrist Texas for every random storm that heads their way.

 

[FoolKiller]

And it doesn't mean that Katrina appeared out of nowhere.

Like Swift said, I think you proved our point.

So explain how Galveston preparing for Rita, without federal help, is different from how New Orleans should have had things done. What made Katrina different so that New Orleans couldn't prepare, depsite the multiple days notice.

 

[Swift]

ta da

And that has what to do with the existance of Katrina and Rita?

 

[FoolKiller]

ta da

don't want my President to take his concentration off of the war in Iraq so that he can micromanage the evacuation of Beuamont and Gilchrist Texas for every random storm that heads their way.

Did I miss something?

"Heads their way" is not "appeared out of nowhere."

 

[JacktheHat]

No-one is denying that New Orleans was ill-prepared. My point is that afterwards, not before, when the US government were fully aware of the situation why didn't they do anything straight away?

Regardless of law, regardless of politics. I would have thought a disaster on this scale would supercede any pettiness, red-tape etc.

 

[Danoff]

ta da

Very weak attempt.

No-one is denying that New Orleans was ill-prepared. My point is that afterwards, not before, when the US government were fully aware of the situation why didn't they do anything straight away?

Regardless of law, regardless of politics. I would have thought a disaster on this scale would supercede any pettiness, red-tape etc.

It's like you haven't been listening to anything anyone has posted. Did you read the part about how the president is not supposed to micromanage evacuations or even dissaster relief? Did you read about how that would be him taking time away from his ligitimate duties?

I like this... "regardless of law" argument. Let's just brush off what is legal and illegal. Let's not even bother with that. Law is not about convenience.

 

[FoolKiller]

Regardless of law, regardless of politics. I would have thought a disaster on this scale would supercede any pettiness, red-tape etc.

Laws, state's rights, civil rights, etc. We hold those things pretty high here.

The next question is, of course, would it have mattered seeing as how the Red Cross, and others, had supplies there and the local authorities were not allowing them to be distributed. Would they have allowed an uninvited federal task force in to help either?

They didn't ask for help and the governor said they had it under control. The result of the federal government taking action would have been a political fight that would have resulted in less action and more deaths.

 

[Arwin]

I thought 'ta da' was a misspelling of 'ta ta', meaning Jack was going to evacuate himself out of this thread, but alas.

I think, Jack, that sometimes I may actually agree with you, but you make your points so incredibly clumsy that I get a headache just trying to understand what your point might have been.

It's like the Bill Cosby argument. Sure, you have a point - you could argue that by asking the black community to just work harder and take advantage of the existing communities, he blames the blacks for their own trouble and negates the existance of structural poverty that is, quite simply, not easy to get out of. And that state of structural poverty is still the result of racial discrimination.

I think there is a valid point to be made, even, that Bill Cosby's comment has added to discrimination, if people take it to simply mean that blacks are a bunch of lazy bastards that could have done a lot better for themselves if they'd bothered to put their energy into educating themselves and working hard rather than smoke pot all day.

However, there has been a lot of research lately how poverty is culturally inheritable. Children learn from role models, and still learn a lot from their parents. Parents living in poverty generally aren't able to provide such role-models, aren't able to offer advanced toys, aren't able to plan their families properly, aren't able to keep a family together, aren't able to afford extra tutoring, and children often grow up in single parent families in which the mother has to spend too much time and energy working to also take proper care of raising the children, with often no back-up available.

And that's just poverty. Although racism isn't as rampant as it used to be, I'm fairly convinced that it still exists, certainly also in the South of the U.S. But, and this is important, not insurmountably so. As research has proven very clearly, the boundaries of poverty are a lot harder to overcome these days as the boundaries of race.

So, Bill Cosby's comment can be regarded with a certain amount of criticism.

In my view, it would be best seen as an encouragement that if you try hard enough, you can overcome your poor social position, in spite of the adversity you face. Those that complain had better try their best at educating themselves and holding a job.

If they then find racism or other structural injustice in their path, then let them complain as loudly as possible, and they will find strong support from many. But before the race card is pulled, look to yourself first.

And that is, imho, sound advice. I think all parties involved should give it their all, not in the least those afflicted.

But although I think you're criticism of Bill Cosby is coming somewhere roughly from a discussion like the above, Jack, you very much fail to bring over the arguments that go along with the conviction. It's very unrealistic of you to assume that other participants in this discussion are going to take that opinion at face value.

Don't dismiss Bill Cosby's advice out of hand. It may very well apply to you personally.