A glimpse what GT5 could become?

[paskowitz]

Nothing is "wrong" with GT5p's lighting I just happen to like KZ2's a lot and I personally think it is a little more appealing. GT5p's is pretty but not stylistic. IDK it really does not matter it all opinion. All I was trying to say was if some of KZ2's tech makes it into GT5 that can only mean good things.

 

[Cold Fussion]

Is that a uvmap chechered texture i see showing?

 

[Patrik]

Nothing is "wrong" with GT5p's lighting I just happen to like KZ2's a lot and I personally think it is a little more appealing. GT5p's is pretty but not stylistic. IDK it really does not matter it all opinion. All I was trying to say was if some of KZ2's tech makes it into GT5 that can only mean good things.

Killzone 2's lighting seems overdone and not realistic to me. Looks great of course but you could never mistake Killzone 2 for real life, but that you can with Gran Turismo 5 Prologue at some points (the replays in particular). And yes, there are a lot of things that could still be miles better with GT5P's graphics, such as the tire smoke, dust, dirt etc. The lighting and colour balance is almost perfect in my opinion though.

 

[paskowitz]

Well I think we can agree that GT5 would benefit from a less sterile more gritty look. Something between GRiD and GT5. Tire nose and smoke really need to be improved. I think the problem with the smoke was the FPS. I remember PD saying something like that when GT4 came out. I like KZ2's lens flare. I think if GT5 lost a little shine and got a little more texture it would improve the overall look.

 

[G.T.Ace]

@Patrik: Yes and no.
I agree with you about the overall lighting itself, but youre missing something.
In KILLZONE 2 every lightsource casts real time shadows on everything and there are many incredibly awesome lightsources.
Even a shooting gun gives a mind blowing lighting effect in dark areas with an unbelievable shadowing (everything in real time depending on the light in the situation). GT doesnt have that till now and if they can add this lighting effects for example in night races (headlights especially) my head will explode.

Believe me, i was in the K2 Beta and standing behind someone in a dark alley and see the muzzle flash lighten up the scene is at least as mind blowing as the almost photorealistic screenshots from GT.... at least.

EDIT: Just a little example (the pic i wanted to post got deleted from photobucket unfortunately):

Now imagine something like this from 32 headlights in LeMans at night....

 

[Cold Fussion]

Well I think we can agree that GT5 would benefit from a less sterile more gritty look. Something between GRiD and GT5. Tire nose and smoke really need to be improved. I think the problem with the smoke was the FPS. I remember PD saying something like that when GT4 came out. I like KZ2's lens flare. I think if GT5 lost a little shine and got a little more texture it would improve the overall look.

Gt5p's graphics are fine. The games online, ai and sound need drastic upgrading though.

 

[Jay]

Beautiful. Am I the only one who thinks the carbon fibre looks way off though?

You are not the only one.

 

[Yury_Rybakov]

Cold Fussion, no - this is not map - this is modeled, you can see it here - http://propergraphics.com/3dlowpoly/Koenigsegg_29_3840.htm

 

[Cold Fussion]

Cold Fussion, no - this is not map - this is modeled, you can see it here - http://propergraphics.com/3dlowpoly/Koenigsegg_29_3840.htm

Ah ok.

 

[Patrik]

@Patrik: Yes and no.
I agree with you about the overall lighting itself, but youre missing something.
In KILLZONE 2 every lightsource casts real time shadows on everything and there are many incredibly awesome lightsources.
Even a shooting gun gives a mind blowing lighting effect in dark areas with an unbelievable shadowing (everything in real time depending on the light in the situation). GT doesnt have that till now and if they can add this lighting effects for example in night races (headlights especially) my head will explode.

Believe me, i was in the K2 Beta and standing behind someone in a dark alley and see the muzzle flash lighten up the scene is at least as mind blowing as the almost photorealistic screenshots from GT.... at least.

EDIT: Just a little example (the pic i wanted to post got deleted from photobucket unfortunately):

Now imagine something like this from 32 headlights in LeMans at night....

We haven't seen GT5 in darkness yet. The only lightsource in GT5P so far is the sun, so what's your point?

The shadows in GT5P are real time as well. I guess you don't use the interior view...

EDIT: Comparing a first person shooter with a racing game is stupid in the first place.

 

[G.T.Ace]

We have seen GT5P in darkness, in the GTbyCitroen presentation.
And yes i also had a "till now" in my post, everything we are talking about here is hypothetical. All ive said was that KILLZONE 2s light effects are better than everything we have seen so far in Gran Turismo and again, before you are confusing this again, only the effects, not the overall lighting and color palette, which is stylized in KILLZONE (perfectly though, its not meant to look too real) and very spot on in GT.

Of course im using the interiour view, exclusive actually (and i also know the immense shadow flickering in GT).

And we are not comparing a shooter to a racing game, we are talking about technologies used in games and its irrelevant if its a racing game, a shooter, a jump 'n' run or whatever.

 

[Patrik]

We have seen GT5P in darkness, in the GTbyCitroen presentation.
And yes i also had a "till now" in my post, everything we are talking about here is hypothetical. All ive said was that KILLZONE 2s light effects are better than everything we have seen so far in Gran Turismo and again, before you are confusing this again, only the effects, not the overall lighting and color palette, which is stylized in KILLZONE (perfectly though, its not meant to look too real) and very spot on in GT.

Of course im using the interiour view, exclusive actually (and i also know the immense shadow flickering in GT).

And we are not comparing a shooter to a racing game, we are talking about technologies used in games and its irrelevant if its a racing game, a shooter, a jump 'n' run or whatever.

Alright, I'm with you then. Of course Killzone 2 looks awesome, but I'm sure GT5's head light effects and such will be just as awesome. The light effects seen in GT5P so far are perfect in my opinion, such as the sun reflections on the cars and in the asphalt, blinding effects etc.

Man I sound like a fanboy...

 

[G.T.Ace]

No you dont sound like a fanboy when youre speaking the truth.

 

[dazzi]

Thats not fanboy answer i also agree its the simple truth.

Sure Many games look amazing but IMO the GT5 engine manages to give the most realistic look I dont know if its just me but those "Hyped" games like Crysis and Far cry 2 which are said to be the best looking ones out some parts just look plastic they do look amazing but I just think GT5 has more realistic detail to what there making, I aknowledge that a FPS will never look as great as some racing games like the GT ones look at them all GT5 will always have a more real look but mainly because there is alot less processing work required in a race then a full battlefield and I dont want any exactly answers that still dosent prove your point of KZ2 looking better then GT5 I also have a gut feeling the game will be nothing special just another nice looking generic FPS.

http://crumaharashop.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/img_2301_killzone22.jpg
http://o.aolcdn.com/gd-media/games/gran-turismo-5-prologue/playstation-3/21.jpg
http://ve3dmedia.ign.com/ve3d/image...-crysis-dx10-screenshot-20061110001326035.jpg

Now tell me which one looks closest to reality .
And no Iam not a KZ2 hater as i WILL go out on launch and purchase it just to see what the hype was about.

 

[myke6699]

Well I think we can agree that GT5 would benefit from a less sterile more gritty look. Something between GRiD and GT5. Tire nose and smoke really need to be improved. I think the problem with the smoke was the FPS. I remember PD saying something like that when GT4 came out. I like KZ2's lens flare. I think if GT5 lost a little shine and got a little more texture it would improve the overall look.

PD has their brand of aesthetics and you can see right trhough all the GT series- instead of sterile I would call it hyper-realistic. While GRID has a moody picturesque photo-shopped look that while I don't detest (maybe a little) is the polar opposite of GT. For an arcade game, GRID graphic style works without a fault but as a simulator, I'd muh prefer the photo-realistic look of GT. Hopefully, GT5 will optimised to handle more smoke that what's in GT5P. And skid mark- definitely needs that. And I'm sure whatever GG learns form KZ2 will be shared with PD in the deveopment of GT5.

 

[myke6699]

Thats not fanboy answer i also agree its the simple truth.

Sure Many games look amazing but IMO the GT5 engine manages to give the most realistic look I dont know if its just me but those "Hyped" games like Crysis and Far cry 2 which are said to be the best looking ones out some parts just look plastic they do look amazing but I just think GT5 has more realistic detail to what there making, I aknowledge that a FPS will never look as great as some racing games like the GT ones look at them all GT5 will always have a more real look but mainly because there is alot less processing work required in a race then a full battlefield and I dont want any exactly answers that still dosent prove your point of KZ2 looking better then GT5 I also have a gut feeling the game will be nothing special just another nice looking generic FPS.

http://crumaharashop.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/img_2301_killzone22.jpg
http://o.aolcdn.com/gd-media/games/gran-turismo-5-prologue/playstation-3/21.jpg
http://ve3dmedia.ign.com/ve3d/image...-crysis-dx10-screenshot-20061110001326035.jpg

Now tell me which one looks closest to reality .
And no Iam not a KZ2 hater as i WILL go out on launch and purchase it just to see what the hype was about.

Although like you, I think PD achieved the most natural lighting when compared to any video games. Killzone 2 while not photorealistic, I think the intention of the art direction is to achieve gritiness more than anything. The lighting while not natural is amazing. I'm usuall not in FPS (COD4 was my last one) but Killzone 2 has manage to pique my interest.
Here are images for Killzone 2 taken from actual video of the final review code- has to be noted that still images don't do justice to the game- with KZ2 is all about the animation and the lighting:

While not photorealistic- the use of lighting in this game (and the sheer quantity) is just incredible. Instead of the graphic element, I think, PD (while working with Guerilla Games, KZ2 developer) will hopefully use some of the physics in Killzone 2 (the wind physics, for example).

 

[Kryz11]

You guys are just hoping bit way too much

 

[RedBaron]

Really, I rather think myself that GT5 will be Prologue with many cars and nothing more. Maybe pleasant surprise is waiting for me, maybe not. But there's many aspects to criticize, they already lost the main gaming way with many details and car/track quantity in GT4 and PD is going to lose important feedback from us with no updates or news now. So they'll do everything their own way and that way we all already know. I'm very afraid of next GT.

 

[Quiet_Storm]

^^^They better start listening to us on other aspects of the game because graphics can only take them so far. They may still be ahead in terms of graphics quality for this console generation but when the next gen systems launch, things will be different. Every other consoles will be capable of rendering this level of graphics or better and PD will be screwed. They're falling behind in the gameplay and sound department, in my opinion.

I wish PD wouldn't be so arrogant and take some pointers from other racing games out there. They should also listen to what the fans want like Turn 10 does. Turn 10 has a great thing going for them with the Forza franchise and I have a feeling Forza 3 may be lapping GT5 around Suzuka, if you know what I mean.

 

[balang_479]

The car is done amazingly but i wouldnt want GT5 to become that detailed....
im quite happy with the Detail in GT5 to stay like this forever and make them concentrate on perfect physics and more cars and tracks and features.... they dont need to improve their graphics and detail there is enough to last a life time.... add more features and stuff....

 

[Obli]

^^^They better start listening to us on other aspects of the game because graphics can only take them so far. They may still be ahead in terms of graphics quality for this console generation but when the next gen systems launch, things will be different. Every other consoles will be capable of rendering this level of graphics or better and PD will be screwed. They're falling behind in the gameplay and sound department, in my opinion.

I wish PD wouldn't be so arrogant and take some pointers from other racing games out there. They should also listen to what the fans want like Turn 10 does. Turn 10 has a great thing going for them with the Forza franchise and I have a feeling Forza 3 may be lapping GT5 around Suzuka, if you know what I mean.

Yes. Hopefully now PD are achieving their targets for car detail, they can focus on other aspects of importance. Although I don't agre that they are failing in the gameplay department. The core handling is there; it's the game features that need to be worked on, particularly online modes (imo!) (sorry if that is what you meant).

 

[myke6699]

^^^They better start listening to us on other aspects of the game because graphics can only take them so far. They may still be ahead in terms of graphics quality for this console generation but when the next gen systems launch, things will be different. Every other consoles will be capable of rendering this level of graphics or better and PD will be screwed. They're falling behind in the gameplay and sound department, in my opinion.

I wish PD wouldn't be so arrogant and take some pointers from other racing games out there. They should also listen to what the fans want like Turn 10 does. Turn 10 has a great thing going for them with the Forza franchise and I have a feeling Forza 3 may be lapping GT5 around Suzuka, if you know what I mean.

I'm pretty sure there are a few of us who much rather have game developer like PD create a game from creative geniuses instead of relying from hundreds of gamers wants and needs. I acknowledge companies like Turn 10 but not everything has to come from the same mantra that fans know best. Besides, Turn 10 is hardly the Voice of Car/Racing Sim. SImbin or Blimey Games, or perhaps Codemasters has since surpassed Turn 10 when it comes to producing top rate racing sim.

 

[Quiet_Storm]

Yes. Hopefully now PD are achieving their targets for car detail, they can focus on other aspects of importance. Although I don't agre that they are failing in the gameplay department. The core handling is there; it's the game features that need to be worked on, particularly online modes (imo!) (sorry if that is what you meant).

Online is a huge part of the overall gameplay of a video game in this day and age. Especially a racing type game. Game features and other aspects of the game is all a part of gameplay and I personally think PD is lacking a lot in these department.

I'm pretty sure there are a few of us who much rather have game developer like PD create a game from creative geniuses instead of relying from hundreds of gamers wants and needs. I acknowledge companies like Turn 10 but not everything has to come from the same mantra that fans know best. Besides, Turn 10 is hardly the Voice of Car/Racing Sim. SImbin or Blimey Games, or perhaps Codemasters has since surpassed Turn 10 when it comes to producing top rate racing sim.

Key word is a "few" of us. Do you think a few will have the ability to keep PD above water? Creative geniuses? I start losing my faith when after 4 tries, they still can't get the physics/sounds/online correctly. I'm not even counting GT5P because if I am then that makes 5. Turn 10 may not be the best but I used them because their Forza series is a direct competition to the GT series right now. If you've played Forza 2 online, you'd know how much fun it is and with a few friends racing together...it is a complete blast!

I honestly don't think PD has the knowledge to make online work like other developers. This is why they need to look around and see what is going on. I don't think they're the geniuses that everyone thinks they are and I don't think KY is all that. I'm sure I'll get a lot of heat for saying that but it is how I feel.

Simbin, Blimey and Codemasters are very good companies and because these companies are now making games for consoles instead of just top rate PC sims, PD has even more to worry about. Look at how great some of the PC sims are that are way low budget compared to GT. Can you imagine if these developers finally get their money to develope these games for consoles? Bye bye PD!

Like I said, the only thing PD has going for it is the graphics. I'm not very impressed with anything else that the game has to offer. Their online is terrible, their physics are improved but still not very good and their sounds are just atrocious (even with a 5.1 surround)! I play with a G25 steering wheel and the physics still feels wrong to me. When I play PC sims like Live for Speed, rFactor and GTR2 or the free BMW Challenge game, it just feels so right!

 

[myke6699]

Online is a huge part of the overall gameplay of a video game in this day and age. Especially a racing type game. Game features and other aspects of the game is all a part of gameplay and I personally think PD is lacking a lot in these department.






Key word is a "few" of us. Do you think a few will have the ability to keep PD above water? Creative geniuses? I start losing my faith when after 4 tries, they still can't get the physics/sounds/online correctly. I'm not even counting GT5P because if I am then that makes 5. Turn 10 may not be the best but I used them because their Forza series is a direct competition to the GT series right now. If you've played Forza 2 online, you'd know how much fun it is and with a few friends racing together...it is a complete blast!

I honestly don't think PD has the knowledge to make online work like other developers. This is why they need to look around and see what is going on. I don't think they're the geniuses that everyone thinks they are and I don't think KY is all that. I'm sure I'll get a lot of heat for saying that but it is how I feel.

Simbin, Blimey and Codemasters are very good companies and because these companies are now making games for consoles instead of just top rate PC sims, PD has even more to worry about. Look at how great some of the PC sims are that are way low budget compared to GT. Can you imagine if these developers finally get their money to develope these games for consoles? Bye bye PD!

Like I said, the only thing PD has going for it is the graphics. I'm not very impressed with anything else that the game has to offer. Their online is terrible, their physics are improved but still not very good and their sounds are just atrocious (even with a 5.1 surround)! I play with a G25 steering wheel and the physics still feels wrong to me. When I play PC sims like Live for Speed, rFactor and GTR2 or the free BMW Challenge game, it just feels so right!

Graphics is not the only thing PD has going for it (that my opinion, of course please respect that). The driving physics of GT5P while a notch below that of Simbin's racing sim (although higher than the older GTR Evo and Race O7, in my humblest opinion since I have these two games), is better than Forza 2 (again, my opinion youu have yours, I have mine)- or at least more believable and less arcadish than Forza 2- yes, my opinion. But compared to GT4, the improvement is leaps and bounds (yup, my opinion again)
Obviously you see no merit in any thing PD has done so far. Fortunately for you there are other games out there, enjoy. My advice is not to get too hung up on what PD can do but rather spend your time with the other games. For me, my faith is still intact. Good luck.

 

[m00ndancer]

The driving physics of GT5P while a notch below that of Simbin's racing sim (although higher than the older GTR Evo and Race O7, in my humblest opinion since I have these two games)

GTR Evo is the newest sim from Simbin together with the STCC add on.
They have updated things slightly (physics mainly) from GTR2 but skimped on options. And yes I know that Race pro is around the corner. And that together with the new Porsche wheel from Fanatec could make GT5 stand in the corner and look old. (My opinion). I really, really hope GT5 will become the most immersive racing game/sim on any console but my I slightly losing hope.
As it stands now, GT5 might just be a HD GT4 clone with better graphics and physics, not an evolution/revolution that Kaz says it going to be.

 

[myke6699]

GTR Evo is the newest sim from Simbin together with the STCC add on.
They have updated things slightly (physics mainly) from GTR2 but skimped on options. And yes I know that Race pro is around the corner. And that together with the new Porsche wheel from Fanatec could make GT5 stand in the corner and look old. (My opinion). I really, really hope GT5 will become the most immersive racing game/sim on any console but my I slightly losing hope.
As it stands now, GT5 might just be a HD GT4 clone with better graphics and physics, not an evolution/revolution that Kaz says it going to be.

I mean GTR without the Evo. Fanatec Porsche wheel sounds great except when I drive a Ferrari will it still feel as if I'n driving a Porsche. I wish Fanatec would make a generic wheel- eg. Sparco.
Apparently there's a lot that share your opinion in regards to GT. An improvement in physics and graphics can be classified as an evolution, no?

 

[paskowitz]

Having played just about every racing sim for the PC and console I really do not think the physics in GT5p are that bad. I think the problem is that GT5p has horrible force feedback and wheel coding. In GTR Evo I can feel every little twitch and bounce of the car. I can detect oversteer far sooner. Same in LFS. If GT5p had GTRE's FFB and wheel code I think it would feel a lot better.

Personally I think Forza's physics suffer similar but even worse problems. First, the only good wheel compatible with the 360 is the Fanatec Porsche Turbo s wheel which ranges from $310-460. The official xbox wheel is utter crap. Second while I would go out and say Forza has good physics they are completely ruined by the horrid track design. The Nurburgring in Forza 2 is like a flat newly paved road. If you have been to Eifel you will know that the Ring is anything but that. If the track is not realistic what is the point? Both these thing ruin whatever good physics Forza may have... in my opinion.

 

[Kryz11]

Everybody see that this Koenigsegg CCX model in our presentation looks better than GT5 cars but nobody understand why it better. Of course non realtime rendering make look better, but we think that main thing why it look so is that it have perfect surface. Look at this screenshots that show bad places on GT5 cars http://propergraphics.com/3dlowpoly/GT5P_screenshots.htm
This screenshots show warped surface of GT5 cars - such problems make car look like paper or something - not sure how to call it, but it kills realism. Koenigsegg model don't have such problems with surface because we done it with proper methods. Also GT5 cars using polys not by the most efficient way, look at this screenshot - http://propergraphics.com/3dlowpoly/GT5P_screenshots/GT5P_wire.jpg

P.S. I am sure that it is possible to achieve very similar look in realtime on PS3 at least for showroom - it is definite will look worse, but not a lot. But not sure if it possible for race track.

Yeah you are right.
PD makes a lot of cars, I bet they still have a long way to go on archiving over 800 cars. So I think Graphics look good either way, small visual aspects does not hurt it, because I still say it's best looking CAR game all aroun. They could change the polygons around to make it better (i am not very techy guy) or how ever this works. But I think it could work during the game. In showrooms and in game, I think Kaz mention it's same polygon count, only difference is the Lightning and shadow effects, as well reflection effects to save up memory to fit more cars on screen. So I think If PD improves the modes, It might look as good in game as in Showrooms, but only less reflection and lightning surfaces.

 

[RacingFreak2k3]

Honestly, visually I think GT5p is fine, and if they kept the SAME visuals for GT5 as GT5p, BUT added damage, skidmarks, backfires (I know they were in GT4), and a few more noises, and better overall car sounds, I think the game will be fine as far as the rawness and realism goes. I think the game feels fine, maybe some fine-tuning to the physics, a true online mode, and we'll be set. I have faith....patience is running low, but I do have faith.

 

[Quiet_Storm]

Graphics is not the only thing PD has going for it (that my opinion, of course please respect that). The driving physics of GT5P while a notch below that of Simbin's racing sim (although higher than the older GTR Evo and Race O7, in my humblest opinion since I have these two games), is better than Forza 2 (again, my opinion youu have yours, I have mine)- or at least more believable and less arcadish than Forza 2- yes, my opinion. But compared to GT4, the improvement is leaps and bounds (yup, my opinion again)
Obviously you see no merit in any thing PD has done so far. Fortunately for you there are other games out there, enjoy. My advice is not to get too hung up on what PD can do but rather spend your time with the other games. For me, my faith is still intact. Good luck.

Wait, I'm a little confused. Are these your opinions? I don't know if you mentioned it or not in your posts but if these are your opinions then I'll respect that. Now you should learn to respect people who have opinions different than yours instead of getting all defensive about it and telling them to look to other games. Sounds very fanboyish, IN MY OPINION.