A Large Problem faced by GT5's Clutch Users.

Snaeper
He might be referring to Live for Speed... I agree, though, that it's odd to bring up the acronym without mentioning the title and assuming everyone knows what you're talking about.
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Sorry about that. Had a short night sleep :dunce:

Yes I'm referring to Live for Speed.
 
why can't more threads be like this one?

I am under the impression, based on comments throughout this site, that this problem only exists for the g25 and g27 users. Now, 'only' becomes a misleading term as soon as you realize that most wheel+clutch users have these Logitech wheels.

Another baffling move by PD, I suppose. How could they be so unaware of their customer's habits? Has Kaz not read 'Propaganda' by Edward Bernays? lol
 
I have updated the OP to help others really understand the annoyances that this causes.

OK8
I believe the story goes like this: in early versions of prologue powershifting was enabled completely (no going to neutral because of throttle) but it gave clutch drivers a big advantage so it was bummed down. There was no clutch damage there was no consequence for doing this and it gave you extra acceleration. Now changing with clutch is at best slightly worse than changing with the paddles.

It's funny to note how in LFS the development has gone to a completely different direction; at first paddle shifters had perfect throttle blip and cut implemented (just as in GT5) but it was changed so now clutch drivers have maybe a slight advantage (the game simultes clutch wear so you can't powershift for long).

Personally I don't have a problem with the current situation. I always use the clutch in appropriate cars and not often do I feel like I'm being left behind because of it. Of course having clutch wear and enabling powershifting just like it is in LFS would be the ideal but although I know changing with clutch is slower in the current situation I still can't stop it because I enjoy it so much. Shifting with paddles is just too boring.
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Exactly. Thing is, I don't want this fixed just so I can full throttle it through every shift, I just want to know that if I put the lever into the correct spot, it will continue to accelerate.


Snaeper
A clutch wouldn't be competitive against paddle shifts in real life, either. When I'm online, I tend to stick with paddles as it keeps it competitive. I'm more about having a fun time racing against people than enjoying the challenge of driving with a clutch and racing.
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I don't agree with this post. In real life - racing a ZR1 against something like a 458 Italia, is very close, and if you get carried away with the shifts if you are driving the corvette, you are going to miss gears, and that just shouldn't happen.
 
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MOTORTRENDmitch
I have updated the OP to help others really understand the annoyances that this causes.

Exactly. Thing is, I don't want this fixed just so I can full throttle it through every shift, I just want to know that if I put the lever into the correct spot, it will continue to accelerate.


I don't agree with this post. In real life - racing a ZR1 against something like a 458 Italia, is very close, and if you get carried away with the shifts if you are driving the corvette, you are going to miss gears, and that just shouldn't happen.
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you just revived an almost 3 months old thread, and even edited the OP. That's.......sick, and this has been discussed a gazillion times.

In short, it isn't game breaker by any means; and actually there are very, very few sims (not games or simcades) that have a decent clutch model.

Also that car comparison has nothing to do with it. Current paddle shifters shift way faster than what pro drivers can do with a manual+clutch.
 
OK8
I believe the story goes like this: in early versions of prologue powershifting was enabled completely (no going to neutral because of throttle) but it gave clutch drivers a big advantage so it was bummed down. There was no clutch damage there was no consequence for doing this and it gave you extra acceleration. Now changing with clutch is at best slightly worse than changing with the paddles.
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Ah, typical PD. Getting around the problem instead of fixing it.

It certainly wouldn't be too hard to implement clutch and transmission damage, right? I mean, most of the wheels you can get out there come with a clutch pedal, so you'd think that PD would bother to model a manual transmission properly, especially since their official wheel for GT5 has a clutch and H-shifter.
 
avens
you just revived an almost 3 months old thread, and even edited the OP. That's.......sick, and this has been discussed a gazillion times.
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Thanks man, I was unaware how old my thread was ;)

I would rather update an OP then make a whole new one.

But as I said anyway. Thanks man.💡
 
Yeah this is a huge problem. Especially in the race cars. You should be able to keep your foot in it when shifting with the H-pattern in an older car like a Group C car. It's very annoying.
 
T500 & TH8 work fine, I use the clutch almost exclusively for offline and online and very rarely get a miss shift (and can remain very competitive in races) I can keep around 20 - 25% throttle when 'quick shifting' which is more than enough to keep the revs up, usually no more than 5% is required, and as the TH8 is so robust a quick change through the gears is no problem. I haven't used the Logitech wheels so can't comment on them, but the Theustmaster works brilliantly.
 
BNGTracer
T500 & TH8 work fine, I use the clutch almost exclusively for offline and online and very rarely get a miss shift (and can remain very competitive in races) I can keep around 20 - 25% throttle when 'quick shifting' which is more than enough to keep the revs up, usually no more than 5% is required, and as the TH8 is so robust a quick change through the gears is no problem. I haven't used the Logitech wheels so can't comment on them, but the Theustmaster works brilliantly.
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I have no problem quickly executing a shift without a miss shift. I NEVER put it in to the wrong gear. But when I get stuck in neutral for no realistic reason. I angers one.
 
MOTORTRENDmitch
I have no problem quickly executing a shift without a miss shift. I NEVER put it in to the wrong gear. But when I get stuck in neutral for no realistic reason. I angers one.
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Good point, it angers me monumentally when it has happened. I'm not saying that doesn't happen to me ever, just very rarely, and the times I get Neutral are when I release the clutch too quickly (timing is absolutely crucial for both real life and sim racing) not when I still have the throttle a little depressed.

Thanks,
Ben.
 
Good update to the thread. I totally agree with it. The clutch really needs to be taken care of. We bought a wheel with a clutch to be able to use it and some were faster than people with a FREE controller or a cheaper wheel without a clutch so they botched it up for the people that were into "the real driving simulater" enough to spend the money to make it as real as possible. We have proper equipment so why should we not be allowed to utilize it fully? I use my clutch on any car that has a clutch and only use paddles for formula cars.

I even built a full sim rig for my g27. The missed shift is what stops this from being a perfect unit to me but it's still pretty good. I use a custom e-brake I built for this as well. Here is a pic of my rig

GOPR0002.jpg


GOPR0004.jpg



I did a LOT of driving in an 89 5.0L 5spd coupe Mustang. "NO THROTTLE LIFT tap the clutch shifts" (power shifting) were DONE and doable OVER AND OVER AND OVER without massive clutch wear (centerforce dual friction clutch) or trans failures other than one time my brother did it with too much weight in the car and missed second to third shift and BANG so that was a new trans but that's how it goes.
 
While I agree with both sides of this arguement, I have to point out that with practice you can cut down on these miss shifts a ton.

At the end of the day you can either try to work with it, or yell at it untill you're blue in the face.

As for being a "game breaker", yeah its unfortunate, but it doesn't break a damn thing. An example of an actual "Game breaking" bug was the game save size bug that actualy broke peoples games.

People might take you more seriously (PD most importantly) if you were to take the "game breaker" out of the title and to avoid framing in such a dramatic and over the top manner. You're kind of "crying wolf" man.

Infact if you were to say title it to reflect what you're thread is actually about, manual shifting and Logitec clutches, that would help make your thread searchable as well as inform people as to whats inside.
 
mikeonthebike
Good update to the thread. I totally agree with it. The clutch really needs to be taken care of. We bought a wheel with a clutch to be able to use it and some were faster than people with a FREE controller or a cheaper wheel without a clutch so they botched it up for the people that were into "the real driving simulater" enough to spend the money to make it as real as possible. We have proper equipment so why should we not be allowed to utilize it fully? I use my clutch on any car that has a clutch and only use paddles for formula cars.

I even built a full sim rig for my g27. The missed shift is what stops this from being a perfect unit to me but it's still pretty good. I use a custom e-brake I built for this as well. Here is a pic of my rig

GOPR0002.jpg


GOPR0004.jpg



I did a LOT of driving in an 89 5.0L 5spd coupe Mustang. "NO THROTTLE LIFT tap the clutch shifts" (power shifting) were DONE and doable OVER AND OVER AND OVER without massive clutch wear (centerforce dual friction clutch) or trans failures other than one time my brother did it with too much weight in the car and missed second to third shift and BANG so that was a new trans but that's how it goes.
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Spot on. I agree absolutely with what you have said.
Great rig by the way!! :drool: I should put some pics of my custom rig, I made it with 1.5" ABS piping and the seat of an RX-8, works out perfectly.
 
grog
While I agree with both sides of this arguement, I have to point out that with practice you can cut down on these miss shifts a ton.

At the end of the day you can either try to work with it, or yell at it untill you're blue in the face.

As for being a "game breaker", yeah its unfortunate, but it doesn't break a damn thing. An example of an actual "Game breaking" bug was the game save size bug that actualy broke peoples games.

People might take you more seriously (PD most importantly) if you were to take the "game breaker" out of the title and to avoid framing in such a dramatic and over the top manner. You're kind of "crying wolf" man.

Infact if you were to say title it to reflect what you're thread is actually about, manual shifting and Logitec clutches, that would help make your thread searchable as well as inform people as to whats inside.
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Agreed.. I will actually change the title.. I totally forgot to do that when I updated the OP.

Double Post.. :ouch:
 
Nowadays I still use the shifter if the car has it, offline or online. Does it slow me down and make me less competitive? Absolutely. Did I buy a G27 just for the H shifter and clutch? Yes. So even though it is flawed sometimes, I stay true to the clutch because that's why I bought this wheel.

1/10 races I will miss shift 1st to 2nd at the start because my foot hasn't completely left the gas pedal (1-5%). I have learned now to just yell "I missed a gear!", then move to the side of the track ASAP. If I don't do that I get rear ended hard and it usually causes a mess for everyone behind me. All in all I prefer this method over paddles, they just take the fun away.
 
MOTORTRENDmitch
Spot on. I agree absolutely with what you have said.
Great rig by the way!! :drool: I should put some pics of my custom rig, I made it with 1.5" ABS piping and the seat of an RX-8, works out perfectly.
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Thanks bud. Post them up. Not everybody is a welder so I value other peoples ingenuity in working with the materials that they are able to or have a available to them.


ZohsixGT5
Nowadays I still use the shifter if the car has it, offline or online. Does it slow me down and make me less competitive? Absolutely. Did I buy a G27 just for the H shifter and clutch? Yes. So even though it is flawed sometimes, I stay true to the clutch because that's why I bought this wheel.

1/10 races I will miss shift 1st to 2nd at the start because my foot hasn't completely left the gas pedal (1-5%). I have learned now to just yell "I missed a gear!", then move to the side of the track ASAP. If I don't do that I get rear ended hard and it usually causes a mess for everyone behind me. All in all I prefer this method over paddles, they just take the fun away.
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Couldn't agree more.👍👍👍

Now I am going to try the method Mitch said about shifting into second gear with the shifter then shifting it back down with the paddle for the start of a race then just banging the clutch when I'm ready for second. That's my biggest problem as well is the start of a race.
 
avens
In short, it isn't game breaker by any means; and actually there are very, very few sims (not games or simcades) that have a decent clutch model.
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I don't think many of us are expecting a realistic clutch model at this point. I don't even think many of us are that disappointed about GT5's mediocre clutch model. Personally, I'm just disappointed about constantly being stuck in neutral. I drive a stick in real life, so I know this issue is not exactly due to my incompetence. Instead, it is due to the incompetence of GT5's clutch system.

But the crux of my point is that GT5 doesn't need an entirely new and realistic clutch system for most of us to enjoy the game. Rather, PD simply needs to to allow for a larger margin of error while shifting. The window of opportunity for having one's foot pressing down on the throttle while shifting needs to be larger. This would be a very easy patch for PD to implement.

Now I'm of the opinion that powershifting will likely provide clutch users with an unfair advantage while playing online, and as a result, PD should probably avoid implementing it. But maybe PD can at least allow for one's foot to be pressing down on the throttle at the 20-25% level while pressing down on the clutch and shifting. That would improve my GT5 experience immensely.

EDIT: Shifting in a video game will be always be more difficult than shifting in real-life. As a result, PD needs to implement a larger margin of error for shifting with one's foot on the throttle. I believe this is the only feasible solution to this problem during the GT5 era, even if it is a bandaid solution to a certain extent.
 
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I agree with most of his points, though the point about wheel users having an unfair advantage could be mostly solved by allowing the use of the clutch for DS3 users. It might not be a perfect solution, but it could be made workable with a little bit of work :D

Right now, H-pattern users are at a disadvantage when it comes to shifting, vs a manual car being shifted using the paddles :banghead:

As far as I know, only a few cars can be shifted quickly enough to actually be comparable to using the paddles.

Here is a video of mine which I posted in another thread long ago.


It only works in cars with excellent engine response (especially going down the revs), and with a lot of practice :ouch:

I think everyone will be sure that the clutch does have a small range of progression, but it is way too small to be convincing...
 
Quick question. If you keep your throttle pinned wide open IRL while shifting wouldnt that cause you to overrev which willl eventually kill you engine and/or transmission? I believe a blown motor will slow you down much more than letting off the throttle for a few milli seconds. No offence to anyone here but I drive stick IRL and have learned to drive quite fluently and The only solution to this problem I can think of is to practice moving your foot away from the loud pedal quicker.
 
Software update 2.08 brings with it the following new features, in addition to correcting bugs and other issues:

Now possible to select “Disable collisions” in the [Event Settings] of online races.
ID’s are now shown above cars when watching online races.
Response of the clutch pedal when using the steering wheel controllers “G25 Racing Wheel”, “G27 Racing Wheel”, “T500RS” and “TH8RS” has been adjusted.
Rate of tire wear in endurance races has been slowed (excluding formula cars).
Amount of air resistance change when altering aerodynamic wing settings has been increased.
Autopilot has been adjusted to prevent colliding with the wall when exiting the pit lane on the Tsukuba circuit.
Adjusted the changes in control characteristic when altering vehicle height from standard height. (Vehicle height can be changed by adjusting ride height, either by installing a suspension kit or adjusting a full customizable suspension kit.


Very interesting. I wonder how much of a good change it will be.
 
It doesn't say anything about fixing what is really causing all the complaints, which is the necessity to deselect and then re-engage the desired gear when you mis-shift. If you mis-shift, it's probably because you mis-timed it. In real life, the gearstick would tell you that directly, but our controllers cannot do that.

In short, GT5 needs to allow the ability to select the gear after a mis-shift by simply dipping the clutch (since you'll already have taken your hand off the stick, and it'll still be where you want it). This is the method that LFS and iRacing use, and in the latter case it is explicitly described that the gear lever position tells the game that you're trying to get that gear, and until it is found, it keeps trying. GT5 needs to do that, and in so doing, 90% of the frustration would disappear and it'll allow the feedback loop for improving your shift timing to be unbroken, meaning you'll be less likely to miss in future.

There's still a small chance that your missed shift was because you trailed too much throttle and the anti-flat-shift kicked in; currently GT5 only allows 10% or so throttle when selecting a gear (it used to be 0), so we may benefit from a slight increase to that limit - 25% is probably about right.
 

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