A real glimpse of GT5's graphics

[nismo4life]

that skyline from pgr3 was mapped like ass....still looks amazing though

 

[von]

I love this game

 

[Dave A]

I think those renders before your reply are fakes.

If you mean thoes Elise one's they arn't GT5 but the guy that linked them was using them as an example of what he thinks GT5's will be like, he didn't say they were GT5 models.

 

[AlarmedBread]

the links i posted were intended to show wireframe displays, not textured models in an environment, you can see those on the site in the picture under the gallery

also some nice stuff here

http://www.kggraphics.com/3dmodels.htm

but it is unrealistic to think that the gt5 engine will handle such dense meshes, sub'd, nurbs or even*maybe?* quads, though i am curious as to the poly limit on each car...

hopefully this time around we wont beable to count the polygons without looking at a wireframe!

 

[SavageEvil]

the links i posted were intended to show wireframe displays, not textured models in an environment, you can see those on the site in the picture under the gallery

also some nice stuff here

http://www.kggraphics.com/3dmodels.htm

but it is unrealistic to think that the gt5 engine will handle such dense meshes, sub'd, nurbs or even*maybe?* quads, though i am curious as to the poly limit on each car...

hopefully this time around we wont beable to count the polygons without looking at a wireframe!

Those are some nice models, but it's not about how many polys you have at the end, it's how well you implement them. PD really know how to mesh visuals extremely well, the TGS video show this, those two cars look soo real, even their windshields and windows were in that slight tint that car windshiels sport. I'd say that PD will definately amaze. Anyone notice on Autumn Ring in GT4 you actually kick up leaves when you ride in the grass, where the leaves are. PD is always experimenting, the 787B is the only car I have used in GT4 that sports an almost perfect in-car eye view level and position, notice that tarmac composition on courses are very varied, SS Montegi is hard as hell, Suzuka is much softer, looks like GT4 was just a testing ground. Let's hope we get full 5.1 sound in full quality and some brains in that AI.

 

[Dave A]

Tbh the cars on that site don't impress me, they look fake. They look like they're made of the wrong materials and a little off overall. I'm guessing it's primarily a textuer and lighting thing though.

 

[SavageEvil]

They are good though, but for some reason they don't have that thing that PD seems to add to all GT's since 3. The models on the site look pretty good, but certain things keep it shy of looking real, like looking through the windshields, things get all matte like, textures are a bit too perfect. But on a whole they are very good though. Just that through the windshield thing and the perfectness of surfaces are the the downfalls.

 

[AlarmedBread]

well yeah, take a second to look at the dates on them aswell

from a few years ago

pd does more of a 'hyper real' feel i think, not so much trying to mimic reality as to make thier own, and it works very well indeed

making a fully realistic scene in 3d is extremely difficult, i dont think most people out there have any idea what goes into it

all that aside...

some dirtying up of the cars and such if you went off in the sand would be nice, as well as rubber laid down on the course, and please damage, please(must keep hope)

 

[430_Riviera]

Hmm... Forza was by far the better game out of the two giants (GT4 being the other) The handling, tyre physics and modelling kicked GT4 into the weeds. I have owned and played extensively both games and prefered Forza. Even though it is smaller, it is far more realistic. (Try doing a donut in GT4 ffs)

I think you should hold back your opinions and try to not let your brief glimpses of dodgy handheld camera footage and stationery montaged screenshots get in the way of accepting both consoles for what they are, immensely powerful next gen beasts. Yet somehow I fail to see how you can compare them at all... one is a towering pc hybrid powerhouse (3x3.2 ghz processors, ATI graphics etc.) and the other a magic japanese box that appears to use fairy dust to magic up imagery without needing decent specs.

Just wait, speculation and hype are surefire ways to disappointment.

P.S. GT4 prettier than Forza?! are you blind or something? Jesus, you could cut yourself on the jagged lines in GT4, have not PD ever heard of anti aliasing?

P.S.S. If GT4 is supposed to be realistic, then why can you not get 800 HP through the drag slicked rear wheels of a early sixties Buick when funny cars do it with 5000HP? The 7.0 litre Buick we got seems to do it fine

my 2 cents.

 

[Dave A]

GT4 was better looking that Forza, while not techincally (Forza had higher poly counts ect) the cars and graphics in GT4 looked more realistic.

Forza beat GT4 on physics, but Enthusia beat Forza. It's pointless arguing about which games the best. GT4 and Forza are both supposed to be realistic, but neither come close to delivering a real experience.

Besides that I think you missinterpreted AlarmedBread's post anyway, he wasn't talking about physics, or polygon pushiing he was talking about the way PD manipulate textures and lighting to create that real look.

 

[SavageEvil]

Hey Number cruncher,it's not how many polys you throw around, it's how you implement the ones you have. PD are wizards at what they do, turn on GT4 and Forza do some laps at Laguna Seca, now watch the replays. My money is on GT4 making Forza look like a 1st gen Xbox game. Mind you PS2 is considerably less powerful in the GPU department. So on PS3 which is definately the more powerful out of all the systems to be released, what do you think will happen. PD will utilize the system to give unparalleled visuals. Anyway, this was about those pics he posted. I think the GTvsForza debate is elsewhere. How the hell did Forza come up in this thread anyway?

 

[christofire]

Reality: I don't think anyone will create a true virtual reality (even if it's just one genre of game) for many years yet. Yes, gfx have come on amazingly since pac-man but to get to full-motion photorealistic quality? The processing power, the design and coding effort needed to create it is far too much.

I think it's too hard to get it perfect - the closer you get the easier it will become for people to pick flaws as we scrutinize it ever closer. You play GT1 and you know it's not real - the gfx are blocky (by today's standards) but there's the element there and you forgive it for the fun factor. GT4 is good, and gives you a sense of realism while retaining that fun. Liv4Speed is too real for me - I want to play a game, not drive a real car. I've got a car - if I wanted to drive around in one I'd go out and do it - the forcefeedback is hella good and the graphics are mind-blowing.

So, do we want Real Real, or Virtually Real? I'd go for Virtually Real. I know it's not real, that's why I want it - to escape into the game and enjoy it.

Oh, and as for one console being technically better and the other just throwing processing power at the problem - there was a similar spec-war years ago between the PC and the Amiga. The Amiga's custom chips allowed great stuff for the time, but the PC won out in the end.

 

[Dave A]

I've got a car - if I wanted to drive around in one I'd go out and do it - the forcefeedback is hella good and the graphics are mind-blowing.

So, do we want Real Real, or Virtually Real? I'd go for Virtually Real. I know it's not real, that's why I want it - to escape into the game and enjoy it.

Yeah but theres a pretty high chance you can't drive an R390 at LeMans at 200mph in real life and you'll never get the chance to. Thats where sim's come into play. You mentioned LFS before being too real, me I absolutely love it, I'm getting my teeth into EPR at the moment for the PS2, now thats also superb, offers variety in cars like the GT series but the realism of a proper sim comparing to the standard proper sims are at right now. I love LFS, especially S2 and that doesn't even have real cars, I love GTR and I love EPR, all more than I love GT4. But then it's always going to be a case of each to his own when realism is concerned. Overall, I'm not too fussed about the graphics at this point, sure better graphics are nicem but looking at GT5 they're more than good enough for me to enjoy, I just hope th hpysics are better than GT4's.

 

[Wakeem]

Reality:

I think it's too hard to get it perfect - the closer you get the easier it will become for people to pick flaws as we scrutinize it ever closer. You play GT1 and you know it's not real - the gfx are blocky (by today's standards) but there's the element there and you forgive it for the fun factor. GT4 is good, and gives you a sense of realism while retaining that fun. Liv4Speed is too real for me - I want to play a game, not drive a real car. I've got a car - if I wanted to drive around in one I'd go out and do it - the forcefeedback is hella good and the graphics are mind-blowing.

So, do we want Real Real, or Virtually Real? I'd go for Virtually Real. I know it's not real, that's why I want it - to escape into the game and enjoy it.

youre not being totally consistent..

i agree that the better the graphics become, the quicker people are to criticize it.[ 💡 (in the same way, if you talk to an idiot in a way he can understand you, he'll say youre intelligent( blocky graphics ; more forgiveness) but if you say something that is beyond his understanding, he'll dismiss you and/or call you a fool. if you happen to pierce his superiority complex barrier (born from the inferiority complex) he begins to realize you have intelligence, youre better than him, he gets jealous and hostile (especially if you have a long history with the character where he always saw you as the fool) : (parallel: the criticism of graphics approaching reality) ] this by no means means that we'll never reach a practically indistinguishable replica. i think we will soon enough.
The definition of "game" is always changing. We have to assume that in the end, we will have reality (simulation of car physics) that is simply displaced into a lovely black box (TV). All that will mean is, reality minus the sense of 3-D space and the laws contained therein ( no pain, death etc.). All it will be is the illusion of the third dimension on a 2 dimensional plane (TV screen). No matter how real it is on the screen, you know its not real. Reality will always be "superior".

 

[christofire]

Apologies for any confusion - I know the concept in my head, I just have trouble translating it to the written word in way that's not 3 pages long and dull.

I'm trying to use the graphics development to illustrate (heh) the physics engine development, and then the product of these two sides of racing games into the development of the whole. To be quite honest I don't know what I want - some discussion about it may help me make up my mind.

If you take your pacman racer it's easy to forgive the unrealistic nature as it doesn't pretend to be photorealistic. However, look how quick people are to bash various games because "they don't look quite right" or "the colours are off". As games have now reached a point where we're modelling flat-spots on the tyres we find ourselves comparing laptimes to real-life laptimes and feeling disappointed. It was easier to forgive the discrepancies in the F1 games on the Amiga in the early 90s as it was so obviously a game.

While I'd like a game to be realistic I do worry that if the next GT is too realistic it will spoil the fun. The more realistic it gets the more we expect and the more the disappointment will be. Again, I've read more than a few comments here saying people were dissappointed with the more recent GTs - is this because of what I've (probably poorly ) tried to explain? Their expectations have been made so high, and yet the game has been neither a fun approximation of reality or the realistc simulation they wanted.

And I still don't think I've explained it. I need to go and have a coffee and a think.

 

[Dave A]

I think GT4 is the best GT so far, what dissapointed me was the fact that the series hasn't moved forwards much, 8-9 years and no real progression has been made. Thats what most people were dissaapointed with, handling wise it's the best one yet, graphics wise it's the best one yet. It's not as realistic as EPR, now heres the problem, GT4 was all well and good, until I player LFS S2, GTR and EPR, okay you can disregard comparisons between GT4 and GTR and LFS S2 due to platform, but EPR is in direct competition with GT4, same platform, same type of car selection (not as many but the variety is there) ect only EPR is better to play, it's more realistic, the DFP works better in that than GT4 and I doubt I'll load GT4 up much again as a result, probably only to practice for the 2006 GT meet if I make it there. GT5 needs to move the series forwards, and to become a proper sim imo, and also to expand the series formula, to innovate more, create new ways of doing things ect.

 

[Alonsomania]

I think GT4 is the best GT so far, what dissapointed me was the fact that the series hasn't moved forwards much, 8-9 years and no real progression has been made. Thats what most people were dissaapointed with, handling wise it's the best one yet, graphics wise it's the best one yet. It's not as realistic as EPR, now heres the problem, GT4 was all well and good, until I player LFS S2, GTR and EPR, okay you can disregard comparisons between GT4 and GTR and LFS S2 due to platform, but EPR is in direct competition with GT4, same platform, same type of car selection (not as many but the variety is there) ect only EPR is better to play, it's more realistic, the DFP works better in that than GT4 and I doubt I'll load GT4 up much again as a result, probably only to practice for the 2006 GT meet if I make it there. GT5 needs to move the series forwards, and to become a proper sim imo, and also to expand the series formula, to innovate more, create new ways of doing things ect.

GT is a collector game too. All of those other games don't have the passion GT has

 

[Dave A]

EPR does, there more cars I actually want to collect in that too.

Passing GT4's under par physics and it's non progressing game formula off as okay because it's a car collectors sim is not acceptable imo. I'm not saying GT4 is crap, don't get me wrong, like I said before it's the best GT to date, but it's just not taking the series anywhere.

 

[Nattefrost]

EPR does, there more cars I actually want to collect in that too.

Passing GT4's under par physics and it's non progressing game formula off as okay because it's a car collectors sim is not acceptable imo. I'm not saying GT4 is crap, don't get me wrong, like I said before it's the best GT to date, but it's just not taking the series anywhere.

GT4's physics under par? That's taking it a bit too far. Sure, it might not be the most realistic driving sim out there, but it does a very good job of combining fairly realistic and enjoyable physics, something other, more realistic sims don't accomplish.

Another thing worth noting is that GT4's physics feel very realistic to most people that aren't too involved in real-life racing (as long as you avoid collisions though). When I'm playing GT4, it doesn't feel a lot different from when I'm driving my car in real-life, really. And that's why this is still a driving enthusiast's, and not a racing enthusiast's game. Enthusia may have more realistic physics, they don't feel like it. And above all, its driving is not nearly as enjoyable as GT4's.

Keep in mind that this all comes from my personal experiences. If you say you've done some racing yourself in real-life and consider Enthusia to be more realistic, I'll take your word for it, but I'd still experience GT4 as more realistic. It just feels that way, and I rate that pretty important.

 

[Dave A]

I was exageratting, my point was that GT4 hasn't pushed the boundaries or the series in any ways other than offer a high car count. With regards to EPR being more realistic with the cars handling ect, it is. I've driven a couple of cars in EPR and GT4, and one or two of them are in both, and the ones in EPR feel a lot more realistic though as you said GT4 isn't exactley rubbish by todays standards, that said not a single game on the maret is close enough to be called a true simulation imo.

 

[Nattefrost]

Ah yes, I kind of overlooked your point in my last post. As the latest entry in a series, GT4 indeed has very little new to offer. I won't deny that I was disappointed when I got GT4, although I love the game.

The series has so much potential, it's frustrating GT4 doesn't oeffer more. Indeed, GT5 will need more than insane graphics to keep me interested. Not even great physics and better AI would be enough to satisfy me, the gameplay needs some serieus innovation. Doing one uninspired event after another gets old, it needs more involvement. And I don't mean something like a storymode like the latest NFS's ridiculously attempted. Something like a carreer, that makes you feel like you're really progressing. Huge chamionships, whole seasons, things like that. Not getting my hopes up though, PD stuck to the same formula since GT1, I don't see them changing it now.

 

[SavageEvil]

Well for starters, no game made for a household will simulate driving as well as actual driving. I've never played Enthusia so i don't know what that is like, but I've played GT4 quite indepth, and for one, things in the game that make controlling the car harder than it should; there is no force exerted on you during manuevers and when you drive at higher than normal speeds, it's hard to get a feel for the grip of your tires when sliding, although it's well done in GT4, something is amiss. This is what driving in GT4 feels like, you are in a car with inertial dampeners, therefore you feel a little slow to react to changes in the cars movement and footing. But at least the game is enjoyable, I like how the stock vehicles dip under heavy braking, but it's more visual driving than the realistic division of vision/sensory/aural experience that you get in real life.

 

[Wakeem]

i definetly believe that the GTR proto pics are what GT5 will be. it makes sense if you use your imagination. it would have to look that good if you want the proportional leap as was from gt2 to gt3. gt3 is to gt2 as gt5 is to gt4

 

[Pupik]

I liked the pit crews waving and cheering their cars.

I don't like the two-car rally races.

The over-mirroring of reflections on cars has got to stop: Real cars don't have that much shine unless they're washed every other hour, unless garaged. And race cars never have much shine as it the gloss adds weight.

 

[Patrik]

if pd just could show us some damage! some real damage!

 

[G-T-4-Fan]

That would be a laugh definatly
Just go out and wreck a car in arcade mode and throw the simulation part of it away for a second

 

[SavageEvil]

I liked the pit crews waving and cheering their cars.

I don't like the two-car rally races.

The over-mirroring of reflections on cars has got to stop: Real cars don't have that much shine unless they're washed every other hour, unless garaged. And race cars never have much shine as it the gloss adds weight.

Two car rally? Hey have you ever seen a rally, it's just one car at a time.

Over-mirroring, (is that a word) of reflections on cars? What? You must be talking about PGR3, GT4's reflections are done quite realistic. Heck GT4, your car builds up polish dulling grime. GT Visions demo the reflections looked even better as they were done as close to real life as possible. I know you've seen it on tv, when camera gets in close to a car you can se reflections, but as you move away the reflections change because of the view distance. PD has this pretty much right, and you are pretty much blind.

Race cars never have that much gloss? What are you kidding? Have you ever seen a race car when it first rolls out, it's clean and polished. Why? So it has absolutely no problems slicing through the air, build up cuts down on aero efficiency. I'm sure that race teams love to bring their cars to a race all dull and dirtied up .

I swear some gripes people have are rather pointless, but you are entitled to it. How about you be clear about your gripes, these were pretty silly and not well thought out.

 

[Pupik]

Two car rally? Hey have you ever seen a rally, it's just one car at a time.

I know that, but if you're going to have between 6 and 20 on all other courses, why not just turn the Rally Mode into a type of rallycross event? It's a real type of racing that has more than 1 or 2 cars racing at the same time on circuits with a variety of surfaces. So if the other events can have 20 cars, why not the rally tracks? In short, gimme 20 cars on a rally course, or just me against the clock. GT2 had a ghost, which is a far better simulator of real rally racing than the Rally Mode of GT3 and GT4.

Over-mirroring, (is that a word) of reflections on cars? What? You must be talking about PGR3, GT4's reflections are done quite realistic. Heck GT4, your car builds up polish dulling grime. GT Visions demo the reflections looked even better as they were done as close to real life as possible. I know you've seen it on tv, when camera gets in close to a car you can se reflections, but as you move away the reflections change because of the view distance. PD has this pretty much right, and you are pretty much blind.

PD does have it right, but the trend appears to be "make it even glossier!" and "Reflect the stars in the sky, even if it's day time!" seems to be gripping even new racing game that appears from the pipeline. GT4 has it right, but reflections aren't super-important on moving vehicles. Reflections of racing cars is quite minimal at best; usually there's just a lighting difference.

Race cars never have that much gloss? What are you kidding? Have you ever seen a race car when it first rolls out, it's clean and polished. Why? So it has absolutely no problems slicing through the air, build up cuts down on aero efficiency. I'm sure that race teams love to bring their cars to a race all dull and dirtied up.

A real racing car gets quite dirty after a few laps; dust, rubber, oil, fan debris, etc. spoil a race car's looks in no time. No need for extra polish, because, yes, it weighs the car down. The car only has to be cleaned off and excessive bodywork gaps closed, and that's it.

I've never strolled down a paddock or pit garage and watched the team members polish the car with a coat of Meguair's or Turtle Wax, they just give it a soaking with soap and water and send the car on it's way. Many ultra-professional racing teams will go as far as to strip all the paint off of the body work of car and re-paint and re-finish it for the next event, but they won't add a second coat of paint nor waste much time with glossy crap.

In short, GT4 did a fine job with the graphics. I don't want to see future versions waste much time improving upon them in absurd ways. I'd rather see more cars, more tracks, more races, but have less music, less meaningless restrictions, and possibly have online play (not too important to me).

 

[SavageEvil]

Rally X events are a different thing, but that would mean they would either have to liscence rally X courses or make up their own, but who knows where PD will go with Rally mode.

I serioulsy doubt PD will over gloss their cars. Watch the TGS video, the cars don't look overly glossed, in fact the cars look quite realistically modelled, even sporting realistic reflections. PGR3 on the other hand goes a little overboard with their reflections. Reflections are important on a visual level, immersion.

Race cars are pretty at the beginning of a race, and build up grime quickly, but they are especially clean at the beginning. The fact that they would clean the parts after every race is for a reason, have to keep the car looking presentable and efficient. Not sure about adding wax, but the carbon fibre body parts are highly polished, smooth surfaces are much better for going through air. Not like they will wipe the car down during a pit stop, but I'm pretty sure it is kept as sharp as possible for the upcoming race.

Remember PD took high quality and precision information during their gathering for GT4, so the time will be spent making this game run to what they originally wanted. PS2 couldn't handle the actual sound quality, hence the downgrade in audio missing soo much bass and mid level tones. GT4 was basically a test, as i noticed they tried many things, why is it the Ford GT seems to run on an unhindered physics engine, the 787B is the only car that has light bloom effect, wiper that shakes the faster you go, the 787b is the only car i have driven that has a nearly perfect cockpit view. Those are the one's i have found so far, as i get more of the cars unlocked i'll see what else i can find. But the visuals must display the move to the new hardware, which it does quite easily, but I am waiting on a GT5 spec only teaser. I want the tuning to be better, i dislike that I have to guess gear settings, they somehow don't think it's relevant to have the dyno read out handy when you are setting up your gears. More indepth tire choices, pressures and temps, closer to real life suspension settings, fuel weight being accounted for, driver weight as well. Engine wear, realistic tire wear, tire manufacturers with real grip ratings, realistic clutching(where is the sound), rally cars should have the popping sound upon deceleration, which equates to no turbo lag. Many things need addressing, hopefully they give them attention.

 

[Dave A]

Race cars are clean because they have to start each race without any dirt on the sponsors logo's, they are never or should never be waxed or glossed, just cleaned.