- 1,510
- United Kingdom
- StirlingMoose
A thread only about balancing CSA and nothing else
- Thread starter Tou2istTrophy
- 132 comments
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- 759
- France
- 8,642
- London
- GTP_Stotty
Yes.
- 759
- France
If there was an incentive to not use it (being able to countersteer better than the computer, like how top players can control the traction with the accelerator to their advantage better than TCS), it would be better in my opinion. At the same time, let it help those who wish to use it keep their cars more stable. As it is right now, there really isn't any disadvantage for most people.
- 2,677
- UK
- Outspacer
As I said earlier, they don't make the cars any faster in absolute terms, they just make the cars a bit easier to drive - Given how many players seem to be having a poor on-line experience, I think anything that makes it easier for them to compete and enjoy the game is a good thing.
Interestingly, I don't think I've ever heard anyone properly fast complain about others using aids.
However, for some reason it does seem to be a semi-regular discussion topic for a group of middling level drivers who like to talk a lot about 'car control' and 'driving ability'... the same driver that are leaving multiple seconds of their cars potential on the track every time they run a lap... why does it bother this group so much that others use the aids?
They'd be far better off using their energy to practice and get better
It could be a worthwhile discussion, if only it wasn't always seen as 'complainers' requiring 'anti-complainers' to put them straight.
You keep saying it doesn't make the car faster, when that's not the point. In practise, it does tend to make drivers faster over a race distance, even up to quite a high level. And it's notable that you've stopped short of saying it's slower to use it, at any driver level. That's not a complaint, just an observation. Pretty much everybody just turns CSA on and away we go - it is at least a level playing field.
So I think the two of us agree on what it is.
And I agree that aids should exist, to help learning players enjoy the game, and to be less of a liability to those around them. TC succeeds in some ways and fails in others - it's good that leaning on it less makes you faster, so it's a good training aid, but for a middling driver it probably takes too much time away, so they risk races without it. CSA just doesn't seem to have any downside, so there's no reason for anyone to train themselves out of relying on it.
Personally I'd prefer not to use it, just because it feels better not to, and I'm quite capable of turning reasonable laps without it. Yet I gain a couple of tenths by using it. So, why shouldn't there be some level at which it stops being a benefit to use? High enough that most players are faster and have more competetive and more incident-free races, but at some (relatively high) point of gaining ability it becomes better to switch it off.
PS. I know very well that I'm no alien, despite the name, but I'm definitely above 'middling'
It's hard to say from the stats how many players are really active players, but by discounting DR E drivers then DR B drivers and above are roughly the top 10% - we could say they are all above average. We may have different definitions of 'middling' How far outside the top ten, say, at yesterday's Gr3 at Nurburgring? And how much time do you think it costs you?
I imagine it feels a lot more unnatural with a wheel than it does on DS4, so could that be throwing you out of your rhythm when you try it?
- 759
- France
Can you please tell me how it works? From my experience, it has felt like the car will countersteer automatically, but there is no difference in wheel slip.
When your back end kicks out, you steer in the opposite direction until it straightens out (say you are turning left, the back end kicks out the right, you will steer right). It's the same as with a wheel, you just have a different device for your inputs.
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- 2,677
- UK
- Outspacer
Most obvious point of difference, I think, is when you get just a little out of shape coming out of a corner. Your natural reflex should be to countersteer, or at least put the steering straight-ish. Let's say you are at full throttle, and hold it full. With CSA on you'll hear the revs sound rather like you have grip, and the car will straighten up. Without it, you might need to lift a little to avoid drifting neatly off to the inside barrier. If you don't turn the steering back at least roughly in the direction you want to go, you'll still spin regardless of CSA.
Probably not the best or most technical of descriptions
To me it feels like a good TC in its effect, but operating in a fairly narrow window of conditions.
- 399
- Poland
Whoever says CSA doesn't help one go faster is straight lying, it basically corrects your steering which is something as a driver one should do already. An assist that is there to correct something as basic as steering is intended for those who are too lazy to learn how to drive or want to play on easy mode.
- 121
- Balears Islands
- riuk25
Hello everyone and a very good day. I just want to say a few things because I can not take it anymore after reading some barbarities. Well if I'm really not faster without "real" help means that "I" am not fast enough. Help systems are limited by software. I do not. And the gt6 non-skid does not exist.
- 759
- France
In terms of ultimate pace of a car on a track, no, it won't physically make you any faster than what is possible to do manually (hence why the top guys use no assists). But to someone who is not that experienced it will reduce their errors and lead to faster lap times, just like all other assists. The thing is though, all other assists (with the exception of ABS) essentially have a point where they no longer become useful, and will make your ultimate lap time slower. But, with csa, there is basically no point where it makes you slower right now, therefore no incentive to not use it (unless you are really skilled).
- 121
- Balears Islands
- riuk25
You can always look for the best path. The reference of braking, acceleration or transmission of weights, the help system is predefined and gives you traction removing control.
- 759
- France
You are right, at the highest level, a real driver has the potential to be faster than a software. But right now, that gap is so small (for 99% of drivers, you excluded) that there is no reason not to use it for most. Wouldn't it be better if less experienced drivers could use it to keep their car safe and stable, but those who chose to countersteer manually could more easily benefit from the advantage of being able to do it themselves (better than a software like you said)?
Can you imagine if TCS in GT became was so advanced that there was basically no disadvantage to using it? Where it is right now is perfect because it benefits those who want to use it, but those who choose to risk managing throttle themselves can benefit from being able to manually do it more effectively than software in some cases.
- 399
- Poland
No, ****, did I say it adds to your BHP? Driver mistake is the main reason behind slower lap times and something like CSA eliminates a lot of those mistakes. Thus, as I stated: "help one go faster", the proof is in the pudding, from the top 10 lap time replays and my own first hand experience.
I admit, I'm nowhere as skilled as a GT academy winner, but the incentive for me in staying away from CSA and ASM is the same as when I avoid using cheat codes and glitches in other games.
- 121
- Balears Islands
- riuk25
Noooo, sorry! I also failed and a lot! but it is part of the learning and also I am very headstrong.
- 759
- France
- 35
- England
Wow I wish I had your skill on DS4 to counter steer, I just can't seem to do it well
Some people like myself aren't as adept and cannot counter steer as well as all you guys, it's quite amazing how you guys can counter steer so well on DS4 it's just a skill I can't do I guess
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- 759
- France
Wow I wish I had your skill on DS4 to counter steer, I just can't seem to do it well
If I understand you correctly, your point is that pad users have to use csa because it is too difficult to countersteer vs a wheel?
Samurai is one of the fastest GT Sport players, and he uses a DS4 with no aids (besides ABS).
- 35
- England
I don't understand? I'm just saying I can't do it so big respect to all you guys who use DS4 and do it well. It's a skill that I don't have :/
- 1,510
- United Kingdom
- StirlingMoose
I didn't do the Nurb one yesterday but in the GR4 at Suzuka I was a good couple of seconds outside the top 10. I think the better you are the less advantage it's going to give you and I'm at the level where it's marginal but noticeable, maybe half a second quicker without it. To me it feels very like Active Steering in GT6. It's hard to pin down exactly what it does but it makes the car feel lifeless somehow. It doesn't respond to steering input in the same way. I'm sure there's more to it than just TC.
When doing Time Trials on GT6 I often used a trick where, when I'd hit a wall and felt I couldn't go any faster without wrecking, I'd do a few laps with AS on. I'd find I could consistently match my best time. Then I'd turn it off and it was like being handed back real control and I'd be able to smash my previous time. It seems to work with CSA too.
- 1,875
- United States
What I see as a non user of the aid is if I get a car a bit out of shape due to loss of traction I generally have to really lift off the throttle to "catch" the car and as a result I lose time to the other cars around me as a result. I have seen cars in a race lose traction but yet when you look the car has not suffered the position set back and looking at the replay after the race that driver would be using CSA.
So from a non users point of view it seems as in some situations that by using the aid the penalty in pace and track position can be much less for a mistake than for a driver that does not use the aid. To me that translates to a performance advantage period.
Also due to the risk involved of losing traction and spinning out a non user will be a little less careless and perhaps just a tad slower and easier applying throttle in certain situations which again cost precious tenths of a second which add up over a race distance. Using the aid there is less chance the "computer" will allow a spin out so that extra care is negated by the insurance policy of the aid.
I have always driven racing games with as little aid from the game as possible. Back in the earlier days it was not so acceptable to rely on a crutch rather than control inputs of the driver. Seems today it is viewed differently.
So from a non users point of view it seems as in some situations that by using the aid the penalty in pace and track position can be much less for a mistake than for a driver that does not use the aid. To me that translates to a performance advantage period.
Also due to the risk involved of losing traction and spinning out a non user will be a little less careless and perhaps just a tad slower and easier applying throttle in certain situations which again cost precious tenths of a second which add up over a race distance. Using the aid there is less chance the "computer" will allow a spin out so that extra care is negated by the insurance policy of the aid.
I have always driven racing games with as little aid from the game as possible. Back in the earlier days it was not so acceptable to rely on a crutch rather than control inputs of the driver. Seems today it is viewed differently.
- 2,677
- UK
- Outspacer
Gr4... that begs the question... what car? Because 2 secs off in most FR or MR would be pretty quick
I didn't try AS much at all in GT6, but it doesn't feel to me that CSA is similar. I don't know if it does, but could the sense of steering vagueness be because it's varying throttle based partly on steering input?
I often do my best quali laps right after a break, having run 10 or so laps before. That resets my focus and suddenly I'm much closer to my optimal time. So I'm wary of saying a setting affects my time considerably, but, I have noticed that if I turn CSA on during the break I'm more likely find myself beating my optimum without it, rather than just getting closer. I can't say I've noticed anything like that when switching it off, but I'll try again.
- 1,510
- United Kingdom
- StirlingMoose
Gr4... that begs the question... what car? Because 2 secs off in most FR or MR would be pretty quick
It was a Scirocco. I was a lot slower in an NSX. And I'm very familiar with Suzuka. On the new tracks I'm usually 3-4 secs off.
Could be. It's a feeling that there is something intervening between what I'm trying to do and how the car is responding. It's like driving through treacle. It feels very similar to AS in that way to me.
I'm very aware of placebo effects and how easy it is to fool oneself, so I'm reluctant to attribute any difference in lap times to anything more than my own inconsistency and lack of practice, and the margins are pretty small but I so far my best quali times have always been with CSA off.
- 16,271
- Boise, ID
- GTP_EDK
Agree with this, it's very much like active steering.
It's not the "Finger of God" that Skid Recovery Force provided, and you can eventually be the same pace without it as you are with it.
I think it cuts down on the learning curve a bit in terms of needing to know where the car loses traction, or where the limit is, if you will.
I was using TC 2 in most Gr.3 and some Gr.4 cars before the update a couple weeks back, but now I am able to drive just about everything with no aids except ABS Default.
- 1,875
- United States
Not being a CSA user before the update or after the update so its affects have not affected my driving or perception since the last update it was the grip increase alone that allowed either reduction or totally turning off TCS depending on the class or car. I have seen no GR4 cars that have needed any TCS and even GR3 FR cars that are more apt to snap spin out of slower corners can now use at minimum lower levels of TCS than before the update.
In my opinion CSA allows a racer to take more risk with acceleration levels and get away with it with less chance of a time costing mistake than a racer who chooses not to use the aid.
- 2,677
- UK
- Outspacer
Well I don't like driving the FFs, and Suzuka doesn't like me, so it was mutually agreed that I skip that one
My 'reference' track is probably Brands GP, since Nords is too long to be any use. After the closed beta those are the two I feel most at home at.My DS3 is charging so I can remind myself of AS. Haven't played GT6 for ages!
I really wasn't implying that you weren't aware of them... just saying that even when I allow for them, I still appear to get a better time with CSA. The optimal time is also a really useful tool for measuring any consistency vs pace trade-off.
- 1,105
- up a tree
- monkeywall
I never use CSA so I can't really comment on it, yet since the thread has turned into a discussion about driving aids i think i'll throw my opinion out there.
GTS is meant to be a sim. A sim game is meant to simulate RL. In RL the top level drivers like those in F1 race with no driving aids. Therefore if GTS whats to be a sim it must simulate RL and have the top level guys race without driving aids.
- 759
- France
Aside for the realistic aids, I think the rest of the aids should be there to help people keep the car stable, but it should come at a disadvantage in ultimate pace and there should be an incentive to turn them off when you reach a certain skill level. Right now, the only fantasy assist that doesn't really have any incentive to move past is csa. If it were slightly worse than countersteering yourself (even by a tenth per lap), that would be enough in my opinion.
- 1,105
- up a tree
- monkeywall
@Tou2istTrophy i agree there isn't really anything wrong with using aids but it should come at a disadvantage. It's just not cricket lol and unfair for those guy that take time to learn how to control the car.
I have hope that PD will start introducing races with aids switched/locked off just like they did in QM for gt6. Also when the serious fia races start we'll see the top guys racing without aids made to race without aids. Otherwise how would the fia justify giving them a chance to get a racing license if they drive with aids. That said i know of 3 guys that are gr.3 top 10 regulars who only use default abs and i can see them heading off to challenge for the licenses not the one's using aids. 1 of which has commented here i'll not name him humble guy very fast.
ps. I'm G29 & default abs only user
I have hope that PD will start introducing races with aids switched/locked off just like they did in QM for gt6. Also when the serious fia races start we'll see the top guys racing without aids made to race without aids. Otherwise how would the fia justify giving them a chance to get a racing license if they drive with aids. That said i know of 3 guys that are gr.3 top 10 regulars who only use default abs and i can see them heading off to challenge for the licenses not the one's using aids. 1 of which has commented here i'll not name him humble guy very fast.
ps. I'm G29 & default abs only user
