Abortion

[Radracing]

One more question for Radracing. What would you say becomes of all the aborted babies that are never baptized?, and do you think God really wanted them to be aborted in the first place? Because that would sound like an evil God to me.

Funny you should ask this same question I've had with my parish priest when I was trying to get my first born baptized. The argument would be "if you are not baptized that does not give you a pass to heaven" is pretty laughable. That's more of a argument for Religion as advertisment to say hey if you are not with us you are going to burn in hell. This are the basic things that puts politics into religion.

So if youre Budhist or some other form of religion that you are no good. These are things that man not god made up just to entice people to join into their religion. Making them think one is better than the other. I don't think god is that narrow minded if he is all loving, he's all about kindness and forgiveness.

If there is any evil it is what we as humans make in this world in forms of hatred, judgementive acts against other humans just because of our indifference towards other people. So my advice to you my friend is try to learn to be indifferent towards other people and in this case, women who feel they don't share your opinion on abortion.

It's all about the love brother, it's all about the "LOVE" and as far as church and state, all I can say is every humans rights is "Right to privacy, BABY!" right to privacy.

 

[FoolKiller]

Well, I'm sorry, you're right, maybe my view about pro-lifers is too stereotyped, but everybody knows they (or you) may also be associated with everything I said.

The only part of that post that applies to me is being opposed to abortion, and I personally know a number of people who are similar.

What you did describe is the Catholic church's view, as I understand it. But I also know many Catholics, including my wife, who don't fall directly in line with that view.

 

[Public'sTwin]

...sortof, in a way I consider to be unimportant. Maybe you don't like the classification, but I find that somewhat irrelevant.

The point that the crime must be taken very seriously and that a fetus must be recognized as an important and protected entity holds true even if the fetus can be aborted.

A woman is free to chop off her own arm, but chopping off a woman's arm against her will is attempted murder and aggravated battery. The same should be true of a woman's fetus. Your argument is that if you kill the mother, and the fetus was part of the mother, it should be one count of murder.

But you've still taken MORE than just the mother. You've taken the existence of another being, attached to the mother, that may not have had a full set of human rights, but still needs to be recognized as something less than a full person.

So perhaps it is the equivalent of killing the mother and the family dog. Whatever it is, I see the point of having the law treat an unsanctioned induced miscarriage as a major assault on the woman, in addition to an assault on the fetus. And while a fetus may not be a human being, it still makes sense to recognize it legally.

So, two counts of murder? I can't say I'd write it that way, but I'm not particularly irritated either.

When they take this charge into account, I would be interested to know if they delineate between recognizable fetuses or just accept any stage of pregnancy as equating to the murder of a second person.

It sounds kind of binary in the eyes of the law: Not pregnant, 1 count of murder; Pregnant, 2 counts of murder - even if the egg and sperm cells have divided a total of 4 times together since conception.

(Interestingly, fetuses are "non-person" humans, yet some propose that dolphins be recognised as "non-human" persons. . . )

 

[mesh_control]

 

[Radracing]

👍👍👍👍👍

 

[Danoff]

bump for relevancy

 

[Dennisch]

I'm pro choice. Plain and simple.

 

[Danoff]

I'm pro choice. Plain and simple.

So partial birth abortion does not bother you. At what point does the fetus gain the right to life and why?

 

[homeforsummer]

I also selected pro-choice, though that can largely be qualified by saying that should rape, incest or similar be the cause of pregnancy, or the mother's life would be put at risk by childbirth, then abortion should be a choice.

I wouldn't however advocate idiots who repeatedly get pregnant/get someone else pregnant using abortion as the default child prevention method. In such situations, or where someone is incapable of becoming a parent for the child for whatever reason, adoption would be preferable to abortion.

 

[Dapper]

I wouldn't however advocate idiots who repeatedly get pregnant/get someone else pregnant using abortion as the default child prevention method.

I don't disagree, and I'm not trying to be rude, but why? What difference does it make? Just out of curiosity.

 

[Exorcet]

I'm not a fan of abortion. Going back to page one, I draw the line at conception. It has to be somewhere. It's a bit of a challenging topic for me because I was raised Christian, and being anti-abortion was one of the things that still made sense after I started thinking on my own. Unfortunately the scenario in my head was overly simplified and I was still thinking about in religious terms as I had been taught (basically murder) even though I was trying to distance myself from my old religion.

A few good discussions on the topic helped me get my mind around more of the real issue though. It's really nice to think about outlawing abortion as a way of guaranteeing every would be child a great life, but that's sadly not the case. There's nothing stopping an unwilling mother from dumping the child in the trash, burning it, or getting an illegal abortion. There's also nothing stopping the mother or father from being irresponsible or unable to support a child.

I wouldn't however advocate idiots who repeatedly get pregnant/get someone else pregnant using abortion as the default child prevention method. In such situations, or where someone is incapable of becoming a parent for the child for whatever reason, adoption would be preferable to abortion.

That's one of the things that definitely bothers me. But the issues I mentioned above still apply. How many kids get adopted anyway? And how many like/dislike being in adoption centers? I honestly don't know.

 

[Liquid]

Pro Choice. It's none of my business whether a woman wants to keep a child or not.

Would I feel different if I was thrust into a situation where me and my parter had to consider abortion? But if I was a woman, I may feel different.

My mum is pro-life except for cases like rape and such. She gets really miffed when I press her about why she isn't completely one way or the other. Me and my two sisters were all accidental pregnancies and that doesn't bother me in the slightest.

 

[Lizard]

Abortions fine as long as all your killing is cells.
There is a diference between a clump of cells and a person IMO and I am fine with aborting the first not the second. The differnce is a person can feel, think etc.

 

[Dennisch]

So partial birth abortion does not bother you. At what point does the fetus gain the right to life and why?

Well, the Dutch law has it at roughly 22 weeks after conception, so I'll stick to that. I really have no issues with abortion, probably because it's legal here as long as I can remember, and thus I grew up with the fact people can choose for the option.

Edit:

Me and my girlfriend talked about this, and we already decided if our first shows to be handicapped or something, it will be aborted.

 

[Dapper]

Can we make detailed explanations of the opinions or views a co-requisite (along with the opinion or view) for this thread?

 

[Danoff]

Can we make detailed explanations of the opinions or views a co-requisite (along with the opinion or view) for this thread?

As indicated in the original post.

The thread about aborting handicapped children seemed to beg the question. Are you pro-life? Are you pro choice? If you are, when if ever is it ok to abort a baby? At conception? After 6 months of pregnancy? Why is that the cuttoff in your mind?

Should one be allowed to abort if it endangers the mother's life? In cases of rape? Are contraceptives ok in your book?

 

[homeforsummer]

I don't disagree, and I'm not trying to be rude, but why? What difference does it make? Just out of curiosity.

Because there's a rather large difference between aborting because you've been raped, for example, or aborting because you're incapable of using contraception. The first instance presumes you didn't consent to having sex, the latter presumes you consented, knew the consequences, but took no action to prevent pregnancy.

Also worth noting that it's "pro choice". A mother has the right to choose whether to abort a baby that's the result of a rape or similar. Some may choose not to, but the important thing is that the choice is there. With regards to not taking precautions, that simply strikes me as careless and moronic.

 

[Liquid]

Also worth noting that it's "pro choice". A mother has the right to choose whether to abort a baby that's the result of a rape or similar. Some may choose not to, but the important thing is that the choice is there. With regards to not taking precautions, that simply strikes me as careless and moronic.

This. This is what pro-choice is about. It's about having the opportunity to abort or not.

If the woman is someone I am not personally involved with, I couldn't give a damn whether she aborts a foetus or not. It's up to her.

 

[Bram Turismo]

Edit:

Me and my girlfriend talked about this, and we already decided if our first shows to be handicapped or something, it will be aborted.

There is an interesting documentary coming up next Tuesday on the Belgian television if you receive the channel Canvas. I think the program is called Koppen XL. Tuesday, the documentary in question is about handicapped children and abortion. In a very early stage after conception doctors are able to tell whether your child will be born with a handicap or perfectly healthy. Knowing that your child will be born with a serious handicap, would you have it removed knowing that neither your child can live a healthy and enjoyable life as well as the parents?

 

[Dennisch]

There is an interesting documentary coming up next Tuesday on the Belgian television if you receive the channel Canvas. I think the program is called Koppen XL. Tuesday, the documentary in question is about handicapped children and abortion. In a very early stage after conception doctors are able to tell whether your child will be born with a handicap or perfectly healthy. Knowing that your child will be born with a serious handicap, would you have it removed knowing that neither your child can live a healthy and enjoyable life as well as the parents?

That's what I said. I really don't see myself with a 40 year old kid with downsyndrome when I'm getting older. Or putting it away in some sort of fosterhome.

 

[Bram Turismo]

That's what I said. I really don't see myself with a 40 year old kid with downsyndrome when I'm getting older. Or putting it away in some sort of fosterhome.

Sorry if my post felt pointed directly at you. When I read your post that documentary popped back into my head and thought these questions might be of any relevance to this thread for some of those people in here that think abortion is but a mere choice parents make.

 

[Dapper]

There is an interesting documentary coming up next Tuesday on the Belgian television if you receive the channel Canvas. I think the program is called Koppen XL. Tuesday, the documentary in question is about handicapped children and abortion. In a very early stage after conception doctors are able to tell whether your child will be born with a handicap or perfectly healthy. Knowing that your child will be born with a serious handicap, would you have it removed knowing that neither your child can live a healthy and enjoyable life as well as the parents?

People with a handicap, and their parents aren't healthy and don't enjoy life?

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/prenatal-testing/PR00014
Here is a little bit bout the testing.

@Dennishch- Wouldn't a normal 40yr old living at home be worse? Because I bet there are a lot more non-handicapped adults living off their parents than handicapped adults.

 

[Dennisch]

@Dennisch- Wouldn't a normal 40yr old living at home be worse? Because I bet there are a lot more non-handicapped adults living off their parents than handicapped adults.

And those people aren't usually the brightest of the bunch of normal people, are they?

But, never, ever, will my normal, sane, son or daughter will living with me when he or she is 40. NEVER.

 

[PeterJB]

I swing more towards pro-life. To me, abortion is murder. It isn't on the same level as murder of a living person, but nonetheless it is a developing life form that has had it's life taken by man. However, in situations where, for example, the foetus is putting the mother's life at risk, or was conceived through rape, then I will let it slide for that, but it should only be a last resort. If you truly do not want the child, put it up for adoption, unless you have a change of heart when you give birth to it.

 

[Danoff]

To me, abortion is murder. It isn't on the same level as murder of a living person, but nonetheless it is a developing life form that has had it's life taken by man.

So is a baby cow.

 

[Bram Turismo]

People with a handicap, and their parents aren't healthy and don't enjoy life?

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/prenatal-testing/PR00014
Here is a little bit bout the testing.

@Dennishch- Wouldn't a normal 40yr old living at home be worse? Because I bet there are a lot more non-handicapped adults living off their parents than handicapped adults.

Don't be silly. Do you really think a child in a wheelchair, being barely able to speak and do anything on her own is honest in saying she is healthy and really enjoying life? That's just them saying that they have accepted the situation they're in and the life they have to live. If these children see their friends or us playing or sporting outside, I don't for a second believe that truly in their deepest, they find absolute joy and happiness with their handicap.

I swing more towards pro-life. To me, abortion is murder. It isn't on the same level as murder of a living person, but nonetheless it is a developing life form that has had it's life taken by man. However, in situations where, for example, the foetus is putting the mother's life at risk, or was conceived through rape, then I will let it slide for that, but it should only be a last resort. If you truly do not want the child, put it up for adoption, unless you have a change of heart when you give birth to it.

Abortion from a rape-case isn't any different than abortion from sex between a couple. It's not about how the child got into the womb, it's about the choice the mother can make herself. You can't just let some cases slide, either you allow it or you don't.

 

[nitrorocks]

Waht does pro choice mean? and what does pro life mean? I feel stupid

 

[Bram Turismo]

Waht does pro choice mean? and what does pro life mean? I feel stupid

To put it simple; pro-life means those against abortion, pro-choice are those who think abortion is a mother's choice.

 

[nitrorocks]

Pro-Life. I think every being has the right to live no matter the condition.

 

[dylansan]

Pro-Life. I think every being has the right to live no matter the condition.

Including mothers who may be killed by the fetus if they don't abort?