Abortion

[Public'sTwin]

Sorry, but I didn't understand what you meant.

I would like to know how you can justify making demands of another human being.

 

[Keef]

*sigh*

Sloppy sloppy sloppy. A puppy dog can feel pain, does it get protection under human rights? If a fly can feel pain are we forbidden to kill it? If a cow feels pain are we forbidden from eating hamburgers?

Whether or not something can feel pain is not the point.

The point is whether a fetus is classified as a human being and afforded all of the protections under the law that human beings are afforded. And to determine that we must understand WHY human beings are afforded rights and, say, a fully grown chimp, isn't afforded human rights. The answer? Highly developed brains. I argue that not only does the fetus need to have a brain, but it needs to have a well developed brain before it can receive human rights protection.

And, as I have argued earlier in this thread, since that line occurs after birth, I support a practical (rather than principled) cutoff at birth. Birth is a convenient place to begin protecting human rights. It's less convenient to determine when your child's brain is further developed than a cow, and so killing the child is less acceptable than killing the cow.

How about we draw a firm line at the umbilical cord. Until that is cut the baby is still physically part of the mother's body, and therefore it should be her choice what happens to it. Any opinions on that line?

 

[Danoff]

How about we draw a firm line at the umbilical cord. Until that is cut the baby is still physically part of the mother's body, and therefore it should be her choice what happens to it. Any opinions on that line?

From page 1.

Yes that's right. Even if the baby is out of the mother and breathing and crying... I think it can be aborted. As long as the umbillical chord is still attached.

I believed Famine when he said a fetus feels no pain within the first 12 weeks, so the argument was sorta resolved on that premise. However, you where referring to animals. A fetus is much more than an animal, it's the start of a human (If we aren't so technical as to say humans are animals, which they are).

Why? What makes us more than every other animal - so much more that we deserve special protection? I've explained what, and I've explained that fetuses don't have it.

 

[Sam48]

Why? What makes us more than every other animal - so much more that we deserve special protection? I've explained what, and I've explained that fetuses don't have it.

I assume that your an atheist so the least I can say is that humans have a conscience, and animals don't, as far as we know.

@Public'sTwin- When it involves something as terrible as preventing life, I believe you can.

 

[Joel]

I assume that your an atheist so the least I can say is that humans have a conscience, and animals don't, as far as we know.

@Public'sTwin- When it involves something as terrible as preventing life, I believe you can.

But what if I don't think preventing life is a big deal?

 

[Azuremen]

But what if I don't think preventing life is a big deal?

Or more so, what if you can do the hard math and realize that the child will have a terrible life anyhow, etc.

Of course, the god fearing people will tell us we have no right to judge what is needed for a happy life, but pretty sure most kids born to poor situations were mistakes anyhow.

Damn, sucks to be them.

 

[Famine]

I assume that your an atheist so the least I can say is that humans have a conscience, and animals don't, as far as we know.

My dog knows when she's done something wrong. I don't even have to tell her.

 

[DK]

I assume that your an atheist so the least I can say is that humans have a conscience, and animals don't, as far as we know.

Uh...don't you know that humans ARE animals? We seem to fit this definition:

In scientific usage, a multicellular organism that is usually mobile, whose cells are not encased in a rigid cell wall (distinguishing it from plants and fungi) and which derives energy solely from the consumption of other organisms (distinguishing it from plants).

A cat is an animal, not a plant.
Humans are also animals, under the scientific definition, as we are not plants.

 

[Sam48]

But what if I don't think preventing life is a big deal?

When you think about it, preventing a life and taking a life, both have the same end result. One less living human being on earth. Abortion and murder are then somewhat similar, only in abortion, the victim doesn't know it's happening.

Why should people abort when they can simply put it up for ADOPTION?

@Driftking18594- I shall quote Robert Gibbs here and tell you that I addressed that earlier. (near the middle of the page)

@Famine- Your dog doing something wrong, and seeing your reaction, thereby triggers the dog's o crap I made him angry reaction. There for, the dog doesn't know it did something wrong, it just knows what your reaction may be as a consequence. It has nothing to do with having a conscience.

 

[Famine]

Why should people abort when they can simply put it up for ADOPTION?

Why should women be forced to carry a pregnancy they don't want, for what ever reason, to term and put colossal stress on their body and undergo extreme risk they aren't willing to undergo when they can simply ABORT?

@Famine- Your dog doing something wrong, and seeing your reaction, thereby triggers the dog's o crap I made him angry reaction. There for, the dog doesn't know it did something wrong, it just knows what your reaction may be as a consequence. It has nothing to do with having a conscience.

Actually, often the first time we find out she's done something wrong is because she's behaving like she's been naughty - without any input from us.


Now prove it's any different in people.

 

[LizMcQueen]

Why should people abort when they can simply put it up for ADOPTION?

Do you think being pregnant is just wait nine months and then go to the hospital to give birth?
I recommend you see some videos of childbirths.
http://childbirthvideo.biz/

Do you know what is an episiotomy or a cesarean section?
Why do I have to suffer that if I can abort?

 

[Sam48]

Why should women be forced to carry a pregnancy they don't want, for what ever reason, to term and put colossal stress on their body and undergo extreme risk they aren't willing to undergo when they can simply ABORT?

Actually, often the first time we find out she's done something wrong is because she's behaving like she's been naughty - without any input from us.

To address both Famine and LizMcQueen, it's the woman's fault for getting pregnant in the first place (excluding being raped). So do you not think it is selfish to get pregnant and then abort the child? Abortion will always prevent a life, but giving birth won't always end the mother's.

It's like choosing between killing your friend, or getting shot (and possibly dying). I would rather get shot and hope to survive then kill my friend.

 

[Famine]

To address both Famine and LizMcQueen, it's the woman's fault for getting pregnant in the first place (excluding being raped).

*facepalm*

So do you not think it is selfish to get pregnant and then abort the child?

And selfishness is bad... why?

Abortion will always prevent a life, but giving birth won't always end the mother's.

And it's her risk to take, not yours.

It's like choosing between killing your friend, or getting shot (and possibly dying). I would rather get shot and hope to survive then kill my friend.

Lucky you that women don't say you don't have the right to make that choice.

 

[LizMcQueen]

I believe we have every right to tell woman they cannot, or should not, abort.

it's the woman's fault for getting pregnant

Do you really think so? or simply you don't think before writing.

do you not think it is selfish to get pregnant and then abort the child?

Do you think women getting pregnant intentionally to abort later?

 

[Sam48]

Do you really think so? or simply you don't think before writing.

Do you think women getting pregnant intentionally to abort later?

I'll try to once again address both of you, but firstly let me say that LizMcQueens last sentence isn't a question (but I think my answer would be no, they do it so that they can one day raise kids), so please rephrase that.

It's selfish because it's preventing the birth of your son or daughter for the sake of your own well being. I know giving birth is extremely painful (not that it's ever happened to me), but I don't know anybody who has died while giving birth. I don't know the stats for what percent of woman die while giving birth, but I would guess there quite low.

What I think you guys aren't quite getting is the fact that it's a person in the making. They're no different from any of us, they just haven't fully developed yet. Have either of you ever seen pictures after or during an abortion?

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

I'll try to once again address both of you, but firstly let me say that LizMcQueens last sentence isn't a question (but I think my answer would be no, they do it so that they can one day raise kids), so please rephrase that.

All you have to do is substitute get for getting.

It's selfish because it's preventing the birth of your son or daughter for the sake of your own well being.

If you don't want a son or daughter then why not?

Have either of you ever seen pictures after or during an abortion?

Have you seen a cow get slaughtered?

 

[Scaff]

It's selfish because it's preventing the birth of your son or daughter for the sake of your own well being. I know giving birth is extremely painful (not that it's ever happened to me), but I don't know anybody who has died while giving birth. I don't know the stats for what percent of woman die while giving birth, but I would guess there quite low.

Its 1.5%, a significant figure for a natural activity.

I have to say its rather 'slack' to post a sweeping statement without even checking the facts first.

Source - http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/c/childbirth/deaths.htm

Cardiac surgery by comparison runs only a 0.9 percent higher, at 2.4%.....

http://www.heart-valve-surgery.com/valve-mortality-surgery-repair-replacement.php

....and thats for a very invasive surgical procedure.

What I think you guys aren't quite getting is the fact that it's a person in the making. They're no different from any of us, they just haven't fully developed yet. Have either of you ever seen pictures after or during an abortion?

It the making being the key point here, they are not yet a person, so yes they are different from all of us.

Your own sentence here contradicts itself. Something 'in the making' is not the same as the completed article, and in the early stages of 'construction' can be very different.



Scaff

 

[Northstar]

Do you think women getting pregnant intentionally to abort later?

Bad Irene does.

It's selfish because it's preventing the birth of your son or daughter for the sake of your own well being.

What's wrong with being selfish?

What I think you guys aren't quite getting is the fact that it's a person in the making. They're no different from any of us, they just haven't fully developed yet. Have either of you ever seen pictures after or during an abortion?

For about the millionth time, this is about what is and not what will be. We get it's a person in the making, but fact is that it isn't yet a person.

 

[Famine]

What I think you guys aren't quite getting is the fact that it's a person in the making.

No, we're getting it. What you aren't getting is that:

They're no different from any of us

They are. Until 18 weeks you can't even tell the gender of the foetus visually. They aren't human so they have no human rights. They aren't alive so they can't be killed or murdered. They can't feel pain before 12 weeks at the earliest. There is no biological, legal or moral reason you can conjure up which will allow women to be forced to carry a pregnancy to term - under severe physical stress - and give birth to it - under yet more physical stress.

This sentence pretty much sums you up:

it's the woman's fault for getting pregnant in the first place

Last I checked, women didn't spontaneously get pregnant.

 

[Danoff]

When you think about it, preventing a life and taking a life, both have the same end result. One less living human being on earth. Abortion and murder are then somewhat similar, only in abortion, the victim doesn't know it's happening.

So the fact that you're not out raping someone right now is murder. In fact, by that rationale, any time you spend not having sex (consensual or otherwise) is murder. By choosing not to have unprotected sex at this instant with the nearest woman you find (relatives and, to an extent, underage women included), you are preventing a life - which is the same as taking a life.

..and when the state locks you away for rape, that's mass murder too - because they're preventing you from going around impregnating everyone you see, which means they're preventing hundreds of children from being born - thereby murdering them.

If we can extend this argument one step further, I'd like to point out that you COULD have mailed me $100 dollars last week, and the fact that you didn't means you have stolen $100 dollars from me. You're a thief and I have half a mind to call the police.

To address both Famine and LizMcQueen, it's the woman's fault for getting pregnant in the first place (excluding being raped).

I absolutely love this line of reasoning. It's her fault. Note the use of the implied crime here. She did the crime, now she has to do the time. It's only fair. She broke the rules by getting pregnant, and now she has to serve sentence by giving birth to a child.

Pregnancy is not a punishment. Getting pregnant is not a crime. You cannot rely on these concept to prove that abortion isn't right.

 

[Sam48]

I give up. There's obviously no way I'll ever convince you guys, and yes, I know my logic is not always spot on. I'm still pro life though.

 

[LizMcQueen]

Last I checked, women didn't spontaneously get pregnant.

I remind you that most pro-life are religious, and their religion tells them that can happen, I've heard that happened to Mary (mother of Jesus), and therefore is possible they think that can happen more women.

Have either of you ever seen pictures after or during an abortion?

No, I've only seen pictures on wikipedia.

We are talking about abortion in early pregnancy (about 2 months) when the fetus is just that, a fetus, not a human.
If you consider a one month fetus is a human project and therefore he/she/it can't be eliminated, I could think when you masturbate you're killing spermatozoons, that is to say another human project, and that becomes you in a murderer, right?

 

[orimarc]

...I could think when you masturbate you're killing spermatozoons, that is to say another human project, and that becomes you in a murderer, right?

Oh 🤬...*looks at paper bin*...oh:censored:, I think I killed SOMEONE last night!
You saw NOTHING.

 

[Radracing]

When you think about it, preventing a life and taking a life, both have the same end result. One less living human being on earth. Abortion and murder are then somewhat similar, only in abortion, the victim doesn't know it's happening.

Why should people abort when they can simply put it up for ADOPTION?

First off your ADOPTION and selfish thing dosen't fly. Selfish meaning taking a life away from someone, when it's really a decision that a woman has to decide if she can care for a child or is capable of raising a child. It could be that a person would not want to put this child on earth to have a life without the love and care they need from a parent that would provide them of a healthy and happy life. Rather than throw them at the mercy of an orphanage and foster parenthood.

God knows how many orphan children are out there that gets a chance of a decent life. I know I would not wish that on any child. I have two daughters and I would only wish they have the best I can offer. But if I know that I couldn't provide that at the least I would not want to have I child of my own because I would not call myself a fit parent if I could not provide those basic elements.

As far as your adoption is concerned if you can say you would not think twice and cover for every child that needs a parent that was given away as a disposable child. I would stop telling people or especially women what is right and wrong. It's a personal thing and it is not our business no matter how righteous you think it is.

Sure there are families out there that are willing to give them the love and care. But I know for a fact that there are more kids out there that does not get that chance more often than the other way around. Even people who are disfunctional and think they are fit enough to have a child and ending up with battered, abused, molested children. I would not want them to end up in the streets as runaway kids, as prostitutes and drug addicts. Thats the last thing I would ever wish on a child but life can me mean and tough so lets not be so judgemental on women who chose to have to abort a child when they know that is a big chance of how a life of a child can end up if you decide to have one and give them away for adoption. To them that would be a crueler thing to do.

Note: I am a Catholic but I am pro choice. As far as religion is concerned that is just the churches opinion and not God. God would want us to do the right thing and doing the right thing for a child is a personal thing. God will decide if you did the right thing or not and not you or anyone else not even the politics of religion. God knows how many sins religions have comitted, so nobody is perfect.

 

[Sam48]

God knows how many orphan children are out there that gets a chance of a decent life.

Hang on, you believe in God, and are pro-choice? Not that it completely surprises me, but your the first person I could argue with while using religious terms.

 

[Radracing]

Hang on, you believe in God, and are pro-choice? Not that it completely surprises me, but your the first person I could argue with while using religious terms.

Note: I am a Catholic but I am pro choice. As far as religion is concerned that is just the churches opinion and not God. God would want us to do the right thing and doing the right thing for a child is a personal thing. God will decide if you did the right thing or not and not you or anyone else not even the politics of religion. God knows how many sins religions have comitted, so nobody is perfect.

You need to get out more then. I'm sure I'm not the only one. People tend to become extremist when they put blind faith into their religion thinking that,that is the only way and without question.

 

[Sam48]

You need to get out more then. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

So what do you make of the Bible quote which follows- "God new you before you where born". (Jeremiah 1:5) That's my simplified version.

 

[Radracing]

So what do you make of the Bible quote which follows- "God new you before you where born". (Jeremiah 1:5) That's my simplified version.

The bible was written by man not god. So its all an interpitation. The bible can be interpeted in so many ways that it can even be used for evil. So don't quote the bible 'cuz if your interpetation is skewed it can be wrong and I am not going to argue with you on what the bible is saying.

For all we know you could be Rev. Jim Jones quoting from the Bible and leading everyone to their deaths. I'm sorry but I hate poeple that are preachy outside of churches. Makes them think they know it all.

 

[Danoff]

Hang on, you believe in God, and are pro-choice? Not that it completely surprises me, but your the first person I could argue with while using religious terms.

Nope.

The moment you use religious terms to determine what the law should be (and that's really what this is all about), you've stepped across that lovely church/state line.

 

[Radracing]

Nope.

The moment you use religious terms to determine what the law should be (and that's really what this is all about), you've stepped across that lovely church/state line.

👍 Amen to that! LOL I think religion is a very personal thing and should be kept personal and out of the states affairs. Religious wars end up doing more harm than good in my opinion.