Abortion
- Thread starter Danoff
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Baptism. One of the most peculiar rituals of Christianity - "God won't forgive you of sins from Adam and Eve unless we put you in some water."Obviously, the same thing that happens to every one else. Provided their even have a soul in them at the time. I mean, do you really know when something has a soul? Maybe there is an age limit, kind of like a driver's license. Hell, maybe it even varies from continent to continent. And I mean, think of all those non-Christians that have never even heard of God and Jesus and all that jazz.
Joel
Premium
- 8,141
- Halifax, NS
- Noob616
I'm atheist, say I get an atheist girl pregnant. Why should she not be able to get an abortion because of "God", when neither of us believe in it? Laws and Religion do not mix. Ever.
I'm glad to see most people here are pro choice, even if they are personally pro life. Like I've said numerous times, I'm personally pro-life, but if I had to vote on it, I'd vote pro-choice every single time.
I thought Earth was supposed to be over-populated with humans?
- 38,991
- Application hell
- MP-Omnis
Because if it is decided that the life being carried is a person, then the carrier has a responsibility to not do it any harm. That's the debate. The law right now is inconsistent on this because people get charged for murder or manslaughter of the unborn in addition to pregnant victims of whatever crimes or accidents.
- 87,871
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
And we've already shown there's no legal or medical basis for this. After all... what defines "a person"?
This also misses the point that if the life being carried is a person, it has a responsibility not to do the carrier any harm - but it does it anyway. The carrier, being the harmed party, retains the option to permit the harm to continue or terminate it.
So the question remains why women should be forced to suffer an assault and have no say in whether they allow it or not.
- 408
- LizMcQueen
I'm sorry, but god doesn't exist, he (or maybe she, you don't know) was created by people with too much leisure.
And if god exists, when did he say abortion was wrong? for thousands of years religion is guilty the death of millions of people, did he say anything about this? (if you want we can go to another thread to talk about all this, I want to see as someone shows me his existence)
- 408
- LizMcQueen
I just quoted you because you are creationist and I want to know where and when god said that abortion was wrong, or the pope said that from the balcony of his awesome mansion and all catholics believe him?
- 3,321
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- GTP_Sam48
I see. God never specifically states that abortion is wrong mainly because abortion is a fairly new thing. God doesn't just come down and tell us it's wrong the day abortion becomes legal. He already told us it was wrong when he wrote the ten commandments. Commandment #4 is- thou shalt not kill. I know Famine already explained a fetus is not alive but back then, abortion was never really done.
Scaff
Moderator
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Only one problem with this, and that is your basic tenant that abortion is 'fairly new' is stunningly wrong.
Source - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion#History_of_abortion
Given that the Hippocratic Oath mentions it dates abortion to at least the fifth century BC, and gives a rather strong indication that it was carried out prior to that period in history.
So given that we are pre-dating the vast majority of the New Testament by at least 500 years I think that the term "fairly new thing" could be considered to be hideously inaccurate.
Scaff
- 408
- LizMcQueen
Scaff
Moderator
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Do you u-turn this often commonly in a debate?
Commandment #4 states that you shall not Murder.
As has already been covered before (in quite a bit of detail) you have not shown that abortion is murder, unless you are opening up the definition to go beyond that which legally applies to a human.
If that is the case you have just stated that the forth commandments means we should all be veggies (hope you don't like steak).
Scaff
- 3,321
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- GTP_Sam48
Sorry, but it's hard to image that God forgot about abortion. It's kinda bothering me. None of the commandments seem to refer to abortion. (#4 is still the closest though, so for my sake, I'll just stick with that, even if it's doesn't refer to abortion)
EDIT: The Bible states that abortion is murder in the eye's of God because all life comes from him.
EDIT: The Bible states that abortion is murder in the eye's of God because all life comes from him.
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- 24,663
- Anoka, MN
- 87,871
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
And Catholicism, like most of Christianity, believes the teachings of Jesus and his forgiveness of all prior sin render the Old Testament - in which the Ten Commandments appear - naught but mere story.
If you were Jewish maybe you could cite the Ten Commandments though. However, since we've already established that a foetus is neither medically nor legally alive to be able to kill them, "thou shalt not kill" doesn't apply.
Where?
Most places quote the same passages. The Ten Commandments (Old Testament and not applicable) and Jeremiah 1:5 (in its many forms always applies to Jeremiah alone - and besides it speaks of an omniscient being having knowledge of the future) are high on the list. But of course Exodus 21 (also Old Testament, so irrelevant) says that hurting a person is worse than causing a miscarriage...
Scaff
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- ScaffUK
Well he certainly does appear to have forgotten about it.
Considering its such a big deal for the church these days, its quite amazing to find that they didn't bother getting around to banning it until the reign of Pope Sixtus V (1585–1590).
So it does seem that not only did God him/her-self not bother specifically mentioning it (bit of a major oversight considering he/she found the time to have a pop at the Prawn and Pig), but his emissary on Earth took a good 1,000+ years to get around to it as well.
Seems to me that it may not be the work of God, rather a politically motivated move by the Church to enforce a will/role of women.
By the way if your not Catholic, that further ruins your argument, as Pope Sixtus V reigned after the start of the reformation and the establishment of the Church of England (and the start of the Protestant church), meaning youre branch of faith would not have even acknowledged that papal declaration as being the word of God. Opps.
Scaff
- 6,804
- The Netherlands
This debate is almost by definition going into religious territory, and being an atheist myself ( or agnostic is more accurate perhaps, as being sure God doesn't exist also can't be fully proven ) I can understand religious people making their choices based on a personal belief, that's freedom of religion.
But forcing other people to make the same decisions or worse, put those rules into laws, turns a personal belief system into a political ideology.
If religion becomes just another political ideology, then whatever God, Jesus or Vishnu, etc. say ( or supposed to have said ) about abortion should be treated equal to whatever Karl Marx, John Locke or even Mussolini said, if they even had an opinion on this issue.
Please refrain to secular arguments to persuade others of your viewpoints even those based on religion, otherwise you're just trying to evangelize a common topic and claiming your religion is the true one and its implications should apply to everyone.
Religion is personal and should remain personal, at least to protect people like me from being told to act a certain way according to an ancient and contradictory text from whatever origin.
( Edit, I meant treating politicised religion equal to any other political ideology, and any opinion ofcourse depends largely on your political belief.
Meaning a religion should therefor not be of more significance than any political persuasion, not suggesting taking anything Mussolini argued should be taken seriously ofcourse.)
But forcing other people to make the same decisions or worse, put those rules into laws, turns a personal belief system into a political ideology.
If religion becomes just another political ideology, then whatever God, Jesus or Vishnu, etc. say ( or supposed to have said ) about abortion should be treated equal to whatever Karl Marx, John Locke or even Mussolini said, if they even had an opinion on this issue.
Please refrain to secular arguments to persuade others of your viewpoints even those based on religion, otherwise you're just trying to evangelize a common topic and claiming your religion is the true one and its implications should apply to everyone.
Religion is personal and should remain personal, at least to protect people like me from being told to act a certain way according to an ancient and contradictory text from whatever origin.
( Edit, I meant treating politicised religion equal to any other political ideology, and any opinion ofcourse depends largely on your political belief.
Meaning a religion should therefor not be of more significance than any political persuasion, not suggesting taking anything Mussolini argued should be taken seriously ofcourse.)
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I have no thoughts one way or another about the act of abortion itself, but I do believe that we cannot take away the choice. It's not our right, it's not anyone's right to push someone else into doing something they don't want to do.
Also, look at it from the common-sense perspective (that's asking a lot, I know). If a woman is determined to get an abortion, regardless of the reason, she's going to get an abortion, no matter what. Would you rather it be in a doctor's office, clean, sterile, and handled by a professional? Or would you rather it take place in a back alley with a twisted coat hanger?
I'm not going to read through the entire thread, but has anyone touched on the prospect of the mother's well-being? If it was a medical certainty that carrying the child to term would kill them both?
I agree with Analog on one point, too.. Everyone is more than welcome to believe what they want to believe, and behave as they want to behave. But you cross the line when you try to push your beliefs onto other people, to force them to your perspective. Take the Jehovah's Witnesses, or other door-to-door Christians. They're more than happy to prattle on all day about their beliefs and why they're right, and to convince you to join them. But if I were to try to tell them my beliefs? Suddenly they don't want to hear it, they will not hear it, because their side is the only one that's right. How can you preach tolerance when you yourself cannot tolerate anything other than your own?
If you're pro-life, more power to you. I'm not going to try to dissuade you from that. It's your God-given right to live your life as you want. But when you start pushing yourself onto others, you should expect to get pushed back. There are people out there, myself included, who will resent you simply because you're trying to force your beliefs on me, regardless of whether they're correct, or even if I agree.
So you see, it's not about what's right and what's wrong. It's about the freedom to do as we choose. To decide what's right by ourselves, by our own morals and beliefs, and not because someone else tells us what to do.
Also, look at it from the common-sense perspective (that's asking a lot, I know). If a woman is determined to get an abortion, regardless of the reason, she's going to get an abortion, no matter what. Would you rather it be in a doctor's office, clean, sterile, and handled by a professional? Or would you rather it take place in a back alley with a twisted coat hanger?
I'm not going to read through the entire thread, but has anyone touched on the prospect of the mother's well-being? If it was a medical certainty that carrying the child to term would kill them both?
I agree with Analog on one point, too.. Everyone is more than welcome to believe what they want to believe, and behave as they want to behave. But you cross the line when you try to push your beliefs onto other people, to force them to your perspective. Take the Jehovah's Witnesses, or other door-to-door Christians. They're more than happy to prattle on all day about their beliefs and why they're right, and to convince you to join them. But if I were to try to tell them my beliefs? Suddenly they don't want to hear it, they will not hear it, because their side is the only one that's right. How can you preach tolerance when you yourself cannot tolerate anything other than your own?
If you're pro-life, more power to you. I'm not going to try to dissuade you from that. It's your God-given right to live your life as you want. But when you start pushing yourself onto others, you should expect to get pushed back. There are people out there, myself included, who will resent you simply because you're trying to force your beliefs on me, regardless of whether they're correct, or even if I agree.
So you see, it's not about what's right and what's wrong. It's about the freedom to do as we choose. To decide what's right by ourselves, by our own morals and beliefs, and not because someone else tells us what to do.
- 408
- LizMcQueen
I have some questions for pro-life people.
You are against abortion (and euthanasia, birth control, embryonic stem cell research... ) basically by religion, because god doesn't allow it, to not breach the fourth commandment, because you think life begins at conception...
You say a pregnant woman could have an abortion if she was raped, but why do you justify the murder (in your opinion) of that baby? that baby is innocent, she/he is not guilty of crime committed by her/his father, don't you think god will be angry with you? you're breaking the fourth commandment, will you go to hell? what is the difference for you between a normal abortion and abortion for rape? in both cases you're killing a baby (in your opinion).
You are against abortion (and euthanasia, birth control, embryonic stem cell research... ) basically by religion, because god doesn't allow it, to not breach the fourth commandment, because you think life begins at conception...
You say a pregnant woman could have an abortion if she was raped, but why do you justify the murder (in your opinion) of that baby? that baby is innocent, she/he is not guilty of crime committed by her/his father, don't you think god will be angry with you? you're breaking the fourth commandment, will you go to hell? what is the difference for you between a normal abortion and abortion for rape? in both cases you're killing a baby (in your opinion).
- 24,553
- Frankfort, KY
- GTP_FoolKiller
- FoolKiller1979
Your paragraph actually appears to be for one person, otherwise it is very stereotyped and thus very wrong. I suggest you not allow yourself to pre-judge an entire group of people based on false pre-conceived notions created by your interactions with a very small few.
We all also like to kill abortion doctors and/or blow up abortion clinics: Don't forget the big details when you create a false stereotype.
Danoff
Premium
- 34,133
- Mile High City
...sortof, in a way I consider to be unimportant. Maybe you don't like the classification, but I find that somewhat irrelevant.
The point that the crime must be taken very seriously and that a fetus must be recognized as an important and protected entity holds true even if the fetus can be aborted.
A woman is free to chop off her own arm, but chopping off a woman's arm against her will is attempted murder and aggravated battery. The same should be true of a woman's fetus. Your argument is that if you kill the mother, and the fetus was part of the mother, it should be one count of murder.
But you've still taken MORE than just the mother. You've taken the existence of another being, attached to the mother, that may not have had a full set of human rights, but still needs to be recognized as something less than a full person.
So perhaps it is the equivalent of killing the mother and the family dog. Whatever it is, I see the point of having the law treat an unsanctioned induced miscarriage as a major assault on the woman, in addition to an assault on the fetus. And while a fetus may not be a human being, it still makes sense to recognize it legally.
So, two counts of murder? I can't say I'd write it that way, but I'm not particularly irritated either.
- 58
- mesh_control
Once again the battlefield is your body and those who want control have laid down their terms in black & white. Red all over, they keep the backstreet butchers in business as advertised from a bullhorn and the all knowing man has set up his make-believe graveyard with tiny white crosses for millions of make-believe souls. Someday i'd like to see a cross set up for a real live human being who bled to death to maintain the sanctity of Mary & child scream the bigots who couldn't care less about human life. Obey their self- righteous lies while your sisters & daughters die all decisions are final your body is forbidden.
- 408
- LizMcQueen
Well, I'm sorry, you're right, maybe my view about pro-lifers is too stereotyped, but everybody knows they (or you) may also be associated with everything I said.
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