Abortion

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This was a good piece from Reason's Elizabeth Nolan Brown. The article contains several tweets, the last of which exceeds GTPlanet's limit for embedding (the link still works even if the tweet isn't displayed), so I included a screenshot of the tweet and the link (to a book purchase page on Amazon) therein.
The leaked draft of a Supreme Court opinion overturning Roe v. Wade continues to spawn confusion, anger, anxiety, and ample predictions. Today I'm going to hone in on some of these reactions to the draft opinion, starting with people questioning some key claims within it.

The February draft—published Monday by Politico and verified as authentic by Chief Justice John Roberts—concerns the case of a 15-week abortion ban in Mississippi (Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization). It was penned by Justice Samuel Alito and is labeled as the opinion of the Court. In it, Alito writes that the Court must overturn both Roe v. Wade (1973) and Planned Parenthood v. Casey (1992), the main legal precedents upon which abortion rights in America are based.

Alito's logic in the draft opinion is raising many an eyebrow. Among his reasons for rejecting Roe and Casey, Alito notes that "the Constitution makes no reference to abortion." And while the 14th Amendment's Due Process Clause has been held to enshrine rights not explicitly mentioned in the Constitution, such rights must be "deeply rooted in this Nation's history and tradition" and "implicit in the concept of ordered liberty," writes Alito, adding that "the right to an abortion does not fall within this category."

"But there is at least one big way in which the unenumerated right at issue in Dobbs may very well fall into this category," writes Reason's Damon Root:
Namely, the right to terminate a pregnancy may be justly seen as a subset of the right to bodily integrity. And the right of bodily integrity has a very impressive historical pedigree indeed. In fact, as the legal scholar Sheldon Gelman detailed in a 1994 Minnesota Law Review article, the right to bodily integrity may be traced back to the Magna Carta. That makes it one of the many rights "retained by the people" (in the words of the Ninth Amendment) that were imported from English law into the Constitution.

The constitutional right at issue in Dobbs only fails the "deeply rooted" in history and tradition test (a test wholly invented by the Supreme Court, by the way) when the Court defines the right narrowly. But when the right is defined broadly—defined as a subset of the venerable and longstanding right of bodily integrity, in other words—then the right passes the test.
University of Maryland history professor Holly Brewer points out that Alito derives support for his arguments from 17th century British common law, which sometimes made abortion a crime if it took place after the "quickening." But the quickening refers to the point in a pregnancy at which a mother can feel a fetus moving inside her—something that doesn't usually happen until around 16 weeks pregnancy at the earliest.

"This 17th-18th century understanding would mean upholding Roe, and disallowing Dobbs," notes Brewer. "So Alito then says the common law somehow must have made abortion illegal before quickening — without a shred of evidence."



Jason Kuznicki, editor in chief of the think tank TechFreedom, takes issue with the idea that rights must be "deeply rooted in history" in order to be valid. This concept "implies that the rights of some people will always be less important than the rights of others. It also raises the question: How far back do the roots of our rights really go?" Kuznicki tweeted, noting that some currently recognized rights—including the right to marry people of the same sex—are not deeply rooted.

"The more we privilege deep roots in history, the more weight we have to give to some terribly illiberal ideas," added Kuznicki. "Rights for white people have deeper roots than rights for black people, and no amount of time can change that."

Democratic politicians are angry, obviously. For instance: "I am angry. Angry and upset and determined," Massachusetts Democratic Sen. Elizabeth Warren told reporters (while trampling some plants). "The United States Congress can keep Roe v. Wade the law of the land, they just need to do it."

They're vowing to fight back, although what they can realistically do is limited.

Some Republicans are mad, too:



But Collins is in the minority among Republican legislators.

Some people are still lingering on how or why the draft was leaked and what it means. Some—including Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R–Ky.)—are even calling for the leaker to be criminally prosecuted.

But this obsession with process and punishment over the substance of the opinion is pretty weird. "The Court's credibility doesn't depend on ceremonies or secrets or mystique. It depends on it getting the answers right," notes Timothy Sandefur, an adjunct at Cato and vice president at Goldwater Institute. "If it gets the answers wrong; no amount of officialdom and ritual will save it. If it gets the answers right, none is necessary."



What happens next? We still don't know if the court's final opinion will resemble this leaked draft. But many are making predictions predicated on the idea that it is the final opinion. These predictions include dire scenarios of unsafe illegal abortions and widely disappeared access to abortion.

But Reason's Jacob Sullum suggests that the impact will be much more limited than many assume:
Last year, based on a scenario in which 22 states banned abortion, Middlebury College economist Caitlin Knowles Myers projected that the annual number of abortions in the U.S. would fall by about 14 percent. In Texas, which banned the vast majority of abortions last September and avoided early judicial intervention by restricting enforcement to private civil actions, the net impact seems to have been a drop of about 10 percent.

Americans should keep those surprisingly modest estimates in mind as they try to predict what will happen after the Supreme Court overturns Roe v. Wade, as a leaked draft of the majority opinion in Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization suggests it will soon do. While many states are expected to respond by imposing severe restrictions on abortion, most probably will not. And even in states that ban elective abortions, workarounds will mitigate the impact of those laws.
It's not just the impact on abortion access that people are worried about, however. Many are concerned about the way the ruling could lead to a rethinking of other Supreme Court precedents.

"As we've warned, SCOTUS isn't just coming for abortion — they're coming for the right to privacy Roe rests on which includes gay marriage + civil rights," Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D–N.Y.) tweeted.

Some Republicans "want to take us back to a time before Roe v. Wade, back to a time before Obergefell v. Hodges, back to a time before Griswold v. Connecticut," suggested Vice President Kamala Harris said in a Tuesday speech.

Whoopi Goldberg suggested on The View that the Supreme Court "will go after gay marriage and maybe Brown v. Board of Education" next.

Reason's Scott Shackford suggests that such fears are largely unfounded.

What it would mean for electoral politics is anyone's guess. "It's not clear that it will give the party any significant boost in the upcoming midterm elections," writes Nicole Narea at Vox. Meanwhile, CNN suggests that "the Supreme Court may have just fundamentally altered the 2022 election."

Democrats are certainly already campaigning on this issue.

"If the Court does overturn Roe, it will fall on our nation's elected officials at all levels of government to protect a woman's right to choose," President Joe Biden said in a Tuesday statement. "And it will fall on voters to elect pro-choice officials this November."

"Women are going to go to vote in numbers we have never seen before," Sen. Amy Klobuchar (D–Minn.) said on CBS.

They're also using it to push other reforms, like an end to the filibuster:



In the longer term, some see it invigorating Democratic support and/or intensifying culture wars.

"Americans are almost evenly divided on their personal views of abortion, according to years of Gallup polling, but only 19 percent think abortion should be illegal under all circumstances," notes Bret Stephens in The New York Times. "It shouldn't be hard to imagine how Americans will react to the court conspicuously providing aid and comfort to the 19 percent."

A reminder that abortion hasn't always been as neatly divided between left and right as it is today:


https://twitter.com/notjessewalker/status/1521326353898954754
Screenshot-20220505-072258-Samsung-Internet.jpg

 


Delete period tracking apps? Gosh, that's a little excessi--

 
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Christianity's interpretation of Exodus 21 has now not only gone slightly off-path, it has caught on fire and is barreling off a cliff while carrying millions of gallons of fuel.
Extremists will always pick and choose what to take from scripture and use that to justify their actions.
 


Delete period tracking apps? Gosh, that's a little excessi--


So many problems with that. From the fact that several forms of contraception are homicide under that definition (including plan B but also certain IUDs), but also lots of non-viable pregnancies can't be terminated. Everything from an embryo that doesn't achieve the "heartbeat" (it's not a heartbeat) signal on time and has stopped developing, to ectopic pregnancies.

It's like the people writing this have no idea what they're doing. They need some basic education in the early stages of pregnancy.
 
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It's like the people writing this have no idea what they're doing. They need some basic education in the early stages of pregnancy.
I disagree. I think the rat ****ers know exactly what they're doing even if, as you say, they don't understand every implication. They don't give a flying **** about the implications.

Cruelty is the point.
 
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I disagree. I think the rat *ers know exactly what they're doing even if, as you say, they don't understand every implication. They don't give a flying * about the implications.

Cruelty is the point.
I agree that they don't care about the implications, but the reason they don't care about the implications is that they're uneducated. They flaunt their lack of education, it is a virtue to them to be ignorant. But if they weren't ignorant, I think they would (at least many of them) actually care about the implications.

I agree with everything you said. They don't care, and they don't understand, and they don't care to understand. But that is the problem, they don't care to understand.
 
Extremists will always pick and choose what to take from scripture and use that to justify their actions.
And since they don't care about incest or rape exceptions to abortion, they probably do not care if the mother dies from the pregnancy itself. Heck, if she and the fetus die, they might charge her doctor or her family with murder!
 
And since they don't care about incest or rape exceptions to abortion, they probably do not care if the mother dies from the pregnancy itself. Heck, if she and the fetus die, they might charge her doctor or her family with murder!
They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.
 

Hence my earlier statement about Exodus 21. The Christian viewpoint is that all fetuses are considered alive while the Jewish viewpoint looks at the statement as you must pay a monetary equivalent for injuring someone (eye for an eye not be taken literally). As far as I am aware (and I stated this before), abortions must be allowed for the very reason the thread above describes. Not doing so punishes women twice for being raped or the victim of incest.
 
US Christian conservatives and Middle Eastern Islamic fundamentalists are so 'diametrically opposed' that they actually go around the world and meet on the other side.

(that one picture of the ISIS crew and Y'All-Qaeda doing the same things)
 
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I can sort of understand the reasoning implied in the draft for overturning Roe v. Wade. It really should be up to the states and not the federal government if it's going to be up to any form of elected officials. Really though, abortion shouldn't be a topic for politicians in the first place. It's a medical procedure and thus should be treated like one. The only people that really need to be involved are the mother, the doctor, and in some cases the father. Past that it's really not the government's business.

All banning abortion in certain states is going to do is increase the number of kids in foster care, increase the dependence on government handouts, and increase the likelihood of back-alley abortions. Never mind the extra burden on the healthcare system when it comes to taking care of children with various horrible genetic conditions. Honestly, in the long run, looking at it purely from a state management perspective, allowing abortions will save the state money so they can spend it on things like giving politicians raises, giving breaks to major campaign contributors, and awarding contracts to their buddies.
 
I can sort of understand the reasoning implied in the draft for overturning Roe v. Wade. It really should be up to the states and not the federal government if it's going to be up to any form of elected officials. Really though, abortion shouldn't be a topic for politicians in the first place. It's a medical procedure and thus should be treated like one. The only people that really need to be involved are the mother, the doctor, and in some cases the father. Past that it's really not the government's business.

All banning abortion in certain states is going to do is increase the number of kids in foster care, increase the dependence on government handouts, and increase the likelihood of back-alley abortions. Never mind the extra burden on the healthcare system when it comes to taking care of children with various horrible genetic conditions. Honestly, in the long run, looking at it purely from a state management perspective, allowing abortions will save the state money so they can spend it on things like giving politicians raises, giving breaks to major campaign contributors, and awarding contracts to their buddies.
...but Christianity*.

*somehow
 
Honestly, in the long run, looking at it purely from a state management perspective, allowing abortions will save the state money so they can spend it on things like giving politicians raises, giving breaks to major campaign contributors, and awarding contracts to their buddies.

But the red states who are trying to ban abortions are also scared of the white population becoming the minority in those states. Non-whites are much more likely to vote democrat. If you can at least scare white women in those states into carrying pregnancies to full term then you have a chance in turning the tide on that shift in demographics. If you can demonise abortion within a certain ethnic demographic, white christians, by outlawing it, then you have a chance of a red state staying a red state rather then turning blue along with that shift in ethnic population ratios.
 
But the red states who are trying to ban abortions are also scared of the white population becoming the minority in those states. Non-whites are much more likely to vote democrat. If you can at least scare white women in those states into carrying pregnancies to full term then you have a chance in turning the tide on that shift in demographics. If you can demonise abortion within a certain ethnic demographic, white christians, by outlawing it, then you have a chance of a red state staying a red state rather then turning blue along with that shift in ethnic population ratios.
You obviously have not read the draft opinion. Alito is doing this for black people.
 
That's dependant on the culture. In some cultures your are 1 year old at birth. Scientifically you are 9 months old at birth so at 2 months before birth you are 7 months old.
What The Reaction GIF by MOODMAN


You can't possibly expect anyone to accept this without substantiation.

...

Except the "9 - 2 = 7" bit. That's pretty straightforward. Though...I am kind of curious why it's in there.

(that one picture of the ISIS crew and Y'All-Qaeda doing the same things)
I like this one:

E9J42kFUcAsEZjT.jpg


Of course it doesn't work in exactly the same way. Lorena Bobbitt there is out of Colorado.
 
But the red states who are trying to ban abortions are also scared of the white population becoming the minority in those states. Non-whites are much more likely to vote democrat. If you can at least scare white women in those states into carrying pregnancies to full term then you have a chance in turning the tide on that shift in demographics. If you can demonise abortion within a certain ethnic demographic, white christians, by outlawing it, then you have a chance of a red state staying a red state rather then turning blue along with that shift in ethnic population ratios.
Not disagreeing with you as I think you're definitely on to something. But, your post reminded me of some old George Carlin punchlines as to why they want abortion banned.

"Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers."
"If you're preborn, you're fine; if you're preschool, you're ****ed."
 
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R3V
Can a woman whose life is endangered by keeping the baby get an abortion and claim self defense?
Unlikely. The point is not to create a logical legal system in which outcomes are clear and consistent, the point is to revert to a time when women were not in control of their own bodies. Or worse, where women were not considered to be human.

The reasoning for disallowing abortions is already so shaky compared to the concept of bodily autonomy that anything that threatens to allow a woman to get an abortion is going to be handwaved away regardless of how "legal" it might otherwise seem to be.
 
That's dependant on the culture. In some cultures your are 1 year old at birth. Scientifically you are 9 months old at birth so at 2 months before birth you are 7 months old.
In which cultures? American?

I always thought they celebrated birthdays on.. you know, date of the birth?
 
In which cultures? American?

I always thought they celebrated birthdays on.. you know, date of the birth?
Korea. Koreans are 1 at birth, and then they get a "year" older on New Years Day regardless of when they were actually born.

It doesn't really change anything. It's arbitrary to say that you're 0 or 1 or 2 or 47 when you pop out of your mother's vagina. As long as everyone understands how the counting is done, it really doesn't matter and it has no bearing on basic bodily autonomy.
 
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The overturning of Roe would almost immediately lead to stricter limits on abortion access in large swaths of the South and Midwest, with about half of the states set to immediately impose broad abortion bans. Any state could still legally allow the procedure.

“The Constitution does not prohibit the citizens of each State from regulating or prohibiting abortion,” the draft concludes. “Roe and Casey arrogated that authority. We now overrule those decisions and return that authority to the people and their elected representatives.”

McConnell has signaled that the GOP could pursue a federal ban on abortion if the right-wing Supreme Court overturns Roe v. Wade and Republicans regain control of Congress in the fast-approaching midterm elections.

"If the leaked opinion became the final opinion, legislative bodies—not only at the state level but at the federal level—certainly could legislate in that area," McConnell (R-Ky.) told USA Today in an interview late last week, days after the publication of Justice Samuel Alito's draft ruling in a Mississippi abortion-ban case sparked nationwide outrage.

"If this were the final decision, that was the point that it should be resolved one way or another in the legislative process," McConnell said of a federal abortion ban, which polling suggests would be broadly unpopular with the U.S. electorate. "So yeah, it's possible."

At least some of the more conservative members of the House said they also want to ensure strict enforcement of the abortion ban and to prevent pregnant Texans from seeking legal abortions in other states.

“I think I can speak for myself and other colleagues that align with my policy beliefs — we’ll continue to do our best to make abortion not just outlawed, but unthinkable,” said Rep. Briscoe Cain, R-Deer Park, a member of the far-right Freedom Caucus.


So much for the state's rights arguments I saw conservatives try to argue on overturning Roe v Wade....
 






So much for the state's rights arguments I saw conservatives try to argue on overturning Roe v Wade....
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So much for the state's rights arguments I saw conservatives try to argue on overturning Roe v Wade....
I mean, it would also violate separation of church and state since the Republicans can't find any reason OTHER than "it's a baby you are killing according to ONE religious interpretation of a Biblical text" while ignoring almost all of the religions who view it differently. I would hope that the government would hold this policy for ALL individuals, but money will certainly allow the wealthy and the politicians to still receive their abortions that are illegal.
 
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I mean, it would also violate separation of church and state since the Republicans can't find any reason OTHER than "it's a baby you are killing according to ONE religious interpretation of a Biblical text" while ignoring almost all of the religions who view it differently. I would hope that the government would hold this policy for ALL individuals, but money will certainly allow the wealthy and the politicians to still receive their abortions that are illegal.
From what I've read, the interpretation isn't even correct as I've seen people cite a passage from their own Bible that lays out how to perform an abortion (I think because of a woman having a child with a man whose not her husband).
 
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