Abortion

[Blitz24]

Ordeal of the bitter water - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Which is not how I learned it as it was only used to determine adultery. The Jewish interpretation of abortion (or at least from what I learned) comes from Exodus, not Numbers.

 

[UKMikey]

Which is not how I learned it as it was only used to determine adultery. The Jewish interpretation of abortion (or at least from what I learned) comes from Exodus, not Numbers.

I only found this, and it's not an abortion. Are you able to provide a reference?

22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

 

[Biggles]

I can sort of understand the reasoning implied in the draft for overturning Roe v. Wade. It really should be up to the states and not the federal government if it's going to be up to any form of elected officials. Really though, abortion shouldn't be a topic for politicians in the first place. It's a medical procedure and thus should be treated like one. The only people that really need to be involved are the mother, the doctor, and in some cases the father. Past that it's really not the government's business.

All banning abortion in certain states is going to do is increase the number of kids in foster care, increase the dependence on government handouts, and increase the likelihood of back-alley abortions. Never mind the extra burden on the healthcare system when it comes to taking care of children with various horrible genetic conditions. Honestly, in the long run, looking at it purely from a state management perspective, allowing abortions will save the state money so they can spend it on things like giving politicians raises, giving breaks to major campaign contributors, and awarding contracts to their buddies.

What strikes me about this & other moves towards a more "conservative" agenda is the impact it might have on the economic viability of Red states. OK, if the Constitution gives states the ability to decide what is "legal" on a wide variety of issues, it will ultimately lead to a nation that is so divided that it barely functions at all as a homogenous entity. If Mississippi becomes more Mississippi .. & Alabama more Alabama & Louisiana more Louisiana etc., at what point do those states fail to attract - or keep - the kind of young, educated residents that are needed to keep the workforce competitive in an increasingly competitive global economy?

 

[Blitz24]

I only found this, and it's not an abortion. Are you able to provide a reference?

22 is usually interpreted as two men quarreling and in the process, strke a woman who is pregnant but cause no fatality. Fatality is referred to the woman being struck and while she herself is not injured or killed, the fetus inside was lost. If you combine that with verse 24, it would lead to one requiring to pay restitution for the damages caused. There is no situation where a Jew would willingly mutilate another Jew as punishment from the courts (and since we are told not to cut and maim our own bodies in a different passage, this would make sense).

Sadly I cannot find a direct reference for the bolded statement but it would have to be from one of the commentators of the Torah itself.

 

[UKMikey]

Fatality is referred to the woman being struck and while she herself is not injured or killed, the fetus inside was lost.

u sure? 22 says "no mischief". 23 onwards appear to be referring to "mischief" to the pregnant woman.

Sadly I cannot find a direct reference for the bolded statement but it would have to be from one of the commentators of the Torah itself.

OK...

[EDIT] Thanks for the PM.

 

[TheCracker]

...at what point do those states fail to attract - or keep - the kind of young, educated residents that are needed to keep the workforce competitive in an increasingly competitive global economy?

Its a race to the bottom with no real long-term goals other than trying to maintain some sort of perceived status quo that future generations will see as outdated and have little wish in maintaining anyway. Those states will just blame other external factors when they suffer with a failure to thrive.

 

[Joey D]

What strikes me about this & other moves towards a more "conservative" agenda is the impact it might have on the economic viability of Red states. OK, if the Constitution gives states the ability to decide what is "legal" on a wide variety of issues, it will ultimately lead to a nation that is so divided that it barely functions at all as a homogenous entity. If Mississippi becomes more Mississippi .. & Alabama more Alabama & Louisiana more Louisiana etc., at what point do those states fail to attract - or keep - the kind of young, educated residents that are needed to keep the workforce competitive in an increasingly competitive global economy?

That sounds like a case of sucks to be those states. Honestly, states that make stupid decisions should fail and should have their economy collapse.

It's already happening in some areas too, there's definitely a brain drain in some states due to their policies. And just want until DeSantis makes Florida a full authoritarian dystopia and companies like Disney, Universal Studios, and cruise lines say enough. Flordia is going to really suffer, especially once the government realizes they need to start taxing things so they can function.

If you continue to vote for politicians that don't have the state's best interest in mind, then the population deserves what it gets. While at a federal level it's harder to influence who's in charge, at the state level it's pretty easy. I know they attempt to gerrymander things, but even then the most important thing a state needs to do is keep people working. Once that no longer happens, people will either revolt or move.

 

[Danoff]

That sounds like a case of sucks to be those states. Honestly, states that make stupid decisions should fail and should have their economy collapse.

It's already happening in some areas too, there's definitely a brain drain in some states due to their policies. And just want until DeSantis makes Florida a full authoritarian dystopia and companies like Disney, Universal Studios, and cruise lines say enough. Flordia is going to really suffer, especially once the government realizes they need to start taxing things so they can function.

If you continue to vote for politicians that don't have the state's best interest in mind, then the population deserves what it gets. While at a federal level it's harder to influence who's in charge, at the state level it's pretty easy. I know they attempt to gerrymander things, but even then the most important thing a state needs to do is keep people working. Once that no longer happens, people will either revolt or move.

You would hope. And it is true that certain states are unattractive in part because of how people vote and live in those states. California is popular. Alabama is not. But somehow this does not seem to translate into different voting. The following image comes from redit. I have no idea if it's accurate but some of the people in the discussion have looked up their states statistics and it seems to be largely accurate. Anyway take it with a grain of salt. What it shows is that people continue to vote for misery.

 

[Famine]

Its a race to the bottom with no real long-term goals

The long-term goal here is to have black women (who have no trouble committing crimes) seeking illegal abortion and dying, while good white women (who wouldn't even think about breaking the law) become baby factories, all in order to outbreed and outpopulate the blacks.

This is literally how they think. It's basically vaginal genocide.

 

[Danoff]

The long-term goal here is to have black women (who have no trouble committing crimes) seeking illegal abortion and dying, while good white women (who wouldn't even think about breaking the law) become baby factories, all in order to outbreed and outpopulate the blacks.

This is literally how they think. It's basically vaginal genocide.

But seriously, Alito says this is FOR black people. He wrote it in the draft opinion.

"Some such supporters have been motivated by a desire to suppress the size of the African American population,” Alito wrote in the draft, published by Politico. “It is beyond dispute that Roe has had that demographic effect. A highly disproportionate percentage of aborted fetuses are Black.

See? He's worried that abortion is a secret ploy for white supremacy.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

What strikes me about this & other moves towards a more "conservative" agenda is the impact it might have on the economic viability of Red states. OK, if the Constitution gives states the ability to decide what is "legal" on a wide variety of issues, it will ultimately lead to a nation that is so divided that it barely functions at all as a homogenous entity. If Mississippi becomes more Mississippi .. & Alabama more Alabama & Louisiana more Louisiana etc., at what point do those states fail to attract - or keep - the kind of young, educated residents that are needed to keep the workforce competitive in an increasingly competitive global economy?

It's all well covered under cancel culture and communism.

 

[TheCracker]

Remind me not to move to Missisippi any time soon.

 

[Famine]

But seriously, Alito says this is FOR black people. He wrote it in the draft opinion.

See? He's worried that abortion is a secret ploy for white supremacy.

What a ****-heel

Also I should have said that by "women" I do of course mean "schoolgirls"; the white girls end up out of education (which makes it easier to get them hooked on religion) and bred in captivity, while the black girls end up dead.

That way we also return to proper Christian values of having women staying at home to look after the babies and not going out to work (the crap jobs women often find themselves doing can be done by stupid men instead) as well as not having any pesky black people filthying up the streets with their crime, guns, and rap music.

 

[McLaren]

Remember when Graham & Mitch said the next President in an election year should get the nominee, opposing Obama's nominee only to let Trump pick his nominee in an election year. Remember when in this very instance of Roe v Wade, many of the judges made comments in the past that they would not overturn it by any means, & now, it looks like they're on route to do that.

GOP senator Mike Braun made headlines just this March for saying interracial marriage should be left to the states before trying to walk it back. He made this remark in linkage to Roe v Wade.

So, yeah, people should be "goaded" into believing hysterical things like banning contraceptives because Republicans have proven when they say they're not going to do something, they most likely are going to do it.

Graham & that Fox banner mocking Dems' warning aged like milk, as expected.

In Tennessee, Sen. Marsha Blackburn has taken issue with legal access to contraception—she called the landmark 1965 Griswold v. Connecticut case that secured that right “legally unsound,” a phrase Americans will be hearing a lot as Republicans chip away at our remaining privacy and reproductive health rights.

Blackburn isn’t alone. Blake Masters, a Republican Arizona senate candidate backed by right-wing tech billionaire Peter Thiel, recently pledged to only vote for judicial nominees who oppose the Supreme Court’s decision in support of legal birth control.

Republicans’ efforts are even outpacing the Supreme Court, which hasn’t yet delivered its official decision on the future of abortion. That hasn’t stopped Louisiana from amending its anti-abortion legislation to ban the practice from the moment of egg fertilization (it would also ban in vitro fertilization, which has been utilized by thousands of Louisiana families)—an extremist position out of step with both modern medicine and most Americans’ beliefs.

Idaho Republicans are going even further, after state Rep. Brent Crane confirmed he would hold hearings to consider banning IUDs and the contraceptive pill Plan B. In Tennessee, not even your mailbox is safe. A new law signed by Gov. Bill Lee makes it a felony, complete with a $50,000 fine, to receive abortion pills through the mail. So much for small government.

GOP Is Wasting No Time Pushing Dystopian Post-Roe Laws

Having all but won the SCOTUS abortion war—the GOP’s twisted, totalitarian worldview is being laid bare for the entire world to see.

www.thedailybeast.com

 

[Danoff]

Graham & that Fox banner mocking Dems' warning aged like milk, as expected.

GOP Is Wasting No Time Pushing Dystopian Post-Roe Laws

Having all but won the SCOTUS abortion war—the GOP’s twisted, totalitarian worldview is being laid bare for the entire world to see.

www.thedailybeast.com

The IUD mentioned is one which prevents a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus. Sperm meets egg, egg doesn't implant. No pregnancy. This happens a ton on its own, lots of fertilized eggs fail to implant regardless of whether a woman makes her uterus less hospitable on purpose.

The IUD doesn't kill sperm, and it doesn't harm eggs. It simply makes the woman's body unavailable for pregnancy. And that's offensive to some right-wingers these days. Women apparently HAVE to make their uterus available in case there are any fertilized eggs in her body that might be able to use it.

That IUD is amazing. It eliminates periods, which is awesome, and has very few side effects. There is no remembering to take a pill, or concern over a broken condom, or surgery. It's just a quick procedure and pregnancy and periods are simultaneously a thing of the past. It has to be replaced every 5 years or so.

Doing that, in the minds of some of these people, makes you a murderer worthy of the death penalty. Had an IUD put in? Don't set foot in some states or perhaps you'll find yourself arrested.

Absolute nut-baggery. I'd be able to laugh about it if they were only hurting themselves.

 

[Blitz24]

The IUD mentioned is one which prevents a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus. Sperm meets egg, egg doesn't implant. No pregnancy. This happens a ton on its own, lots of fertilized eggs fail to implant regardless of whether a woman makes her uterus less hospitable on purpose.

The IUD doesn't kill sperm, and it doesn't harm eggs. It simply makes the woman's body unavailable for pregnancy. And that's offensive to some right-wingers these days. Woman apparently HAVE to make their uterus available in case there are any fertilized eggs in her body that might be able to use it.

That IUD is amazing. It eliminates periods, which is awesome, and has very few side effects. There is no remembering to take a pill, or concern over a broken condom, or surgery. It's just a quick procedure and pregnancy and periods are simultaneously a thing of the past. It has to be replaced every 5 years or so.

Doing that, in the minds of some of these people, makes you a murderer worthy of the death penalty. Had an IUD put in? Don't set foot in some states or perhaps you'll find yourself arrested.

Absolute nut-baggery. I'd be able to laugh about it if they were only hurting themselves.

Going back to your prior post about states not realizing they can shoot themselves in the foot with their stupidity, we did see some of the repercussions of that last year. I wonder how much more we will see if these proposed laws go through.

 

[mellofello9]

Thats the problem with logic. It's no better than an opinion.

And I think this sums up well why it shouldn't be up to anyone but the person going through the challenge in that moment. From an outsider looking in, I feel we should be wary of passing judgement on what is/is not right or what does/does not make sense in those moments wherein it's not an "OUR" problem at all. When the decisions being made are so vastly complex and personalized to the individual enduring them, applying a generalized, carte blanche 'solution' is as dangerous as it is irresponsible.

I'm Pro-Choice. That said, I think it'd be more aptly framed as I'm "Pro-Staying-In-My-Lane."

 

[McLaren]

Going back to your prior post about states not realizing they can shoot themselves in the foot with their stupidity, we did see some of the repercussions of that last year. I wonder how much more we will see if these proposed laws go through.

Joey brought up DeSantis & the possibility of Disney, Universal, & the cruise lines leaving.

So, I'd say that's where we'll likely see the next foot being blown off as he keeps poking at tourist-based industries.

The greater Walt Disney World Resort has 70,000 employees. According to Disney, that's the largest number of people employed by one company in a single location anywhere in the US.

Tourism, Florida's biggest industry, contributed $111.7 billion to the state's economy in 2016. While much of that money went to hotels and recreation, other sectors of the Florida economy get a big boost from out-of-towners. Visitors spent almost $16 billion on retail purchases as well.

13 mind-blowing facts about Florida's economy

Florida has one of the biggest economies in the United States, and has a larger GDP than Turkey, Switzerland, and Argentina.

markets.businessinsider.com

 

[UKMikey]

And I think this sums up well why it shouldn't be up to anyone but the person going through the challenge in that moment. From an outsider looking in, I feel we should be wary of passing judgement on what is/is not right or what does/does not make sense in those moments wherein it's not an "OUR" problem at all. When the decisions being made are so vastly complex and personalized to the individual enduring them, applying a generalized, carte blanche 'solution' is as dangerous as it is irresponsible.

I'm Pro-Choice. That said, I think it'd be more aptly framed as I'm "Pro-Staying-In-My-Lane."

I clicked on your quote for context. @Danoff had to deal with some real crazies back then.

Well, just abstain if you don't want a kid then. Simple.

ABSTAIN!

Like, how do you abstain from being raped? (I know the poster recently came back to the thread to recant these views.)

 

[Danoff]

I clicked on your quote for context. @Danoff had to deal with some real crazies back then.

I clicked on it too! My first thought was - why did it take me a few days to write "cord" instead of "chord"? My second thought was - I sure did like to put things as controversially as possible at this time.

My position on this subject hasn't really changed since then, though I think I did give a few people some pause on their own beliefs.

 

[TexRex]

The IUD doesn't kill sperm, and it doesn't harm eggs. It simply makes the woman's body unavailable for pregnancy. And that's offensive to some right-wingers these days. Women apparently HAVE to make their uterus available in case there are any fertilized eggs in her body that might be able to use it.

So what you're saying is the IUD is a wall and the egg is being denied asylum in the uterus. It's a wonder the rat ****ers are opposed to this. They just want open wombs.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

So what you're saying is the IUD is a wall and the egg is being denied asylum in the uterus. It's a wonder the rat ****ers are opposed to this. They just want open wombs.

Open wombs for some, miniature American flags for others

 

[mellofello9]

I clicked on it too! My first thought was - why did it take me a few days to write "cord" instead of "chord"? My second thought was - I sure did like to put things as controversially as possible at this time.

My position on this subject hasn't really changed since then, though I think I did give a few people some pause on their own beliefs.

Holy 💩, sorry for the "necro-quote"...clicked on a recent post and it dropped me at page 1. Was not paying attention to my surroundings, obviously, it's VERY Monday in my brain today. Suppose it sorta explains quoting a post from almost 20 years ago.

Sentiment remains the same, though, so I've at least got that going for me.

 

[Biggles]

That sounds like a case of sucks to be those states. Honestly, states that make stupid decisions should fail and should have their economy collapse.

It's already happening in some areas too, there's definitely a brain drain in some states due to their policies. And just want until DeSantis makes Florida a full authoritarian dystopia and companies like Disney, Universal Studios, and cruise lines say enough. Flordia is going to really suffer, especially once the government realizes they need to start taxing things so they can function.

If you continue to vote for politicians that don't have the state's best interest in mind, then the population deserves what it gets. While at a federal level it's harder to influence who's in charge, at the state level it's pretty easy. I know they attempt to gerrymander things, but even then the most important thing a state needs to do is keep people working. Once that no longer happens, people will either revolt or move.

OK, but you live in Utah. 😕

I have long thought that the libertarian view of this (which has come to seem more & more irrelevant over the last few years) would be that states that exercise their "states rights" by enacting laws & regulations that do not favour a progressive agenda (culturally & economically) would lose ever more ground to other states (Utah might be a bit of an outlier in this regard due to the particular & peculiar history of the state). Providing cheap land, low taxes & cheap labour doesn't really seem a recipe for prosperity going forward ... without populist nationalist politicians intervening & shifting the playing field.

And it appears that the US constitutional & political structure - executive, legislative & judicial - continues to heavily favour "conservative states", pushing the whole country in a conservative direction.

 

[McLaren]

The IUD mentioned is one which prevents a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus. Sperm meets egg, egg doesn't implant. No pregnancy. This happens a ton on its own, lots of fertilized eggs fail to implant regardless of whether a woman makes her uterus less hospitable on purpose.

The IUD doesn't kill sperm, and it doesn't harm eggs. It simply makes the woman's body unavailable for pregnancy. And that's offensive to some right-wingers these days. Women apparently HAVE to make their uterus available in case there are any fertilized eggs in her body that might be able to use it.

That IUD is amazing. It eliminates periods, which is awesome, and has very few side effects. There is no remembering to take a pill, or concern over a broken condom, or surgery. It's just a quick procedure and pregnancy and periods are simultaneously a thing of the past. It has to be replaced every 5 years or so.

Doing that, in the minds of some of these people, makes you a murderer worthy of the death penalty. Had an IUD put in? Don't set foot in some states or perhaps you'll find yourself arrested.

Absolute nut-baggery. I'd be able to laugh about it if they were only hurting themselves.

I just had a conversation over lunch with a friend whose stance reminded me of your post.

She told me the decision to overturn Roe v Wade & further proposals against condoms/IUDs/etc made her glad she finally got sterilized last year b/c she's convinced they'd eventually go after tubal ligation if Republicans got their way for everything else. I asked if she thinks it'd be the same for vasectomies, to which she said, "Not really, but also depends on how religiously committed these freaks are about it". She told me ultimately, it just further pushes her & her partner to hurry their move out west and leave Texas b/c she's confident the state will lead the charge into banning any sort of birth control w/ zero exemptions as long Abbott or any other Texas GOP has power.

 

[Joey D]

OK, but you live in Utah. 😕

I have long thought that the libertarian view of this (which has come to seem more & more irrelevant over the last few years) would be that states that exercise their "states rights" by enacting laws & regulations that do not favour a progressive agenda (culturally & economically) would lose ever more ground to other states (Utah might be a bit of an outlier in this regard due to the particular & peculiar history of the state). Providing cheap land, low taxes & cheap labour doesn't really seem a recipe for prosperity going forward ... without populist nationalist politicians intervening & shifting the playing field.

And it appears that the US constitutional & political structure - executive, legislative & judicial - continues to heavily favour "conservative states", pushing the whole country in a conservative direction.

Well, I only live in Utah for another couple of months so that's a plus. But really Utah is going to be a disaster in less than 5 years and it's specifically due to the policies here, particularly how water rights are handled. Once precipitation falls below a certain level, we're going to lose the Great Salt Lake, which will in turn bankrupt the ski resorts. Housing prices are also out of control because of policies as well, specifically zoning. We can't build high-density housing when it's needed, so we're stuck with apartment rents that rival places like San Francisco and New York City with no houses. All the tax breaks in the world aren't going to help the economy if employees have no place to live.

Utah isn't to the point where the policies have sunk the state yet, but it's very much on track for that to happen, especially if it continues to move further right. With abortion, we have a trigger law that will essentially make it illegal here. This will likely make some people reconsider moving here, which could hurt the economic boom in the long run. It's really hard to say.

I do think states should have the right to do what they want if it's not outlined in the Constitution, but I also think states should be held accountable when what they do fails spectacularly. In the short term, I don't expect the banning of abortion to have a big hit, but in the long run, it will definitely cause economic harm to states. If those states fail, the federal government should be under no obligation to assist them either.

As for our country being set up to be conservative, that's not really the case. The US is set up to be more or less classically liberal, which is fundamentally at odds with conservatism since it very much means a hands-off government. Modern conservatives are just as, if not worse, at government overreach than modern liberals.

 

[Danoff]

I just had a conversation over lunch with a friend whose stance reminded me of your post.

She told me the decision to overturn Roe v Wade & further proposals against condoms/IUDs/etc made her glad she finally got sterilized last year b/c she's convinced they'd eventually go after tubal ligation if Republicans got their way for everything else. I asked if she thinks it'd be the same for vasectomies, to which she said, "Not really, but also depends on how religiously committed these freaks are about it". She told me ultimately, it just further pushes her & her partner to hurry their move out west and leave Texas b/c she's confident the state will lead the charge into banning any sort of birth control w/ zero exemptions as long Abbott or any other Texas GOP has power.

I think they lose more and more people the more extreme they get. In fact, I think it's already far enough that the majority of the country is ticked. The demographics are different in Texas, but anyone with the pronoun "she" should get the hell out of Texas.

 

[FerrariF1GT]

Here in Madison, there's an arson case that happened against an anti-abortion PAC under investigation.

I do not condone violence as a response to events, and it's unfortunate that the story will likely be picked up by the conservative talking heads to paint all pro-choice activists as angry radicals and give their base something else to fearmonger over.

With my current state legislature strongly favoring the GOP (that issue opens a can of worms better for another thread), I can't imagine that the antiquated abortion laws (made decades before Roe, mind) here will change. I'll probably eat my words when a GOP governor comes in and makes the laws even more regressive.

 

[UKMikey]

The pro-life party...

Another Texas GOP lawmaker is attempting to make abortion punishable by the death penalty

Similar bills filed in the Texas Legislature in previous years have failed.

www.texastribune.org

Death Penalty for Abortions Becomes Pivotal Issue in GOP Runoff in Texas

Two GOP candidates sparred over legislation that could make abortion a capital offense.

www.newsweek.com

 

[mellofello9]

It would seem terribly embarrassing, to me, to run around the world bangin' the drum screaming "DEMOCRACY RULZ!!" while that same world watches your democracy being supplanted by the will of the minority. That assumes a capacity for shame, though. Shame has left the building...

I was really hoping the 'optics' terminology/ideology would take hold as the catch phrase of a genuine turning point. Granted, it was with an empty hope of self-reflection by certain elephants in the room, but, one can dream. Sadly, that dream of politicians writ-large seeing beyond their own self promotion is a bridge too far.