Again the "Minolta" Toyota 88 CV

[Lloyd87]

Again the "Minolta" Toyota 88C-V, like in GT4, seems to be the fastest car in the game, excluding formula 1 cars and the X1.
I'm making tests of various cars such as Nissan R92CP, Peugeot 908 HDI, Mazda 787B etc.. but although they're very close in terms of performances, the Toyota just signs better lap times.
What do you think of that ?

Also, I still find its performances quite unrealistic.
That car, in real life, never scored important results. Never a victory, neither a pole position nor a fastest lap. To give an example:

-All Japan Sports Prorotype Championship, Season 1988.
4 of 6 races were held on Fuji International Speedway , 4.470 kms.
The fastest lap scored by a Toyota 88C-V, in all four races held on this track, was 1:22.289.

-All Japan Sports Prorotype Championship, Season 1992.
Same track, Fuji International Speedway , 4.470 kms (no track changes since 1988). In three races held here, the fastest time was set by a Nissan R92CP in 1:17.574. Almost 5 seconds better.

The Toyota 88C-V also got disappointing results at Le Mans 88' and 89'.

So why making it such a fast car ?
Performances of cars should not be valued taking just numbers in consideration, such as horsepower and weight.

 

[DGXR]

Aerodynamics, suspension design and setup, weight balance, power delivery and engine tune (i.e. PS/tq@ rpm), driving dynamics in general... These factors and more all play a part in how "fast" a car is.

 

[Machate-man]

Perhaps an unusual Placebo effect comes with a car like the Minolta?

Its reputation seems to carry unusual weight

 

[Lloyd87]

Aerodynamics, suspension design and setup, weight balance, power delivery and engine tune (i.e. PS/tq@ rpm), driving dynamics in general... These factors and more all play a part in how "fast" a car is.

Of course they all play their part, but on the paper it's "easy" to build the fastest thing in the world, the real challenge is to proove it on track, which is what the 88C-V didn't do.

A similar case regards the Audi R10. This car represents the evolution of the mythical R8, but in the game, the R8 goes faster; that's quite odd!
And there are tons of similar cases. There's really no sense in making these cars faster than they are in reality.

 

[Morgoth_666]

Aerodynamics, suspension design and setup, weight balance, power delivery and engine tune (i.e. PS/tq@ rpm), driving dynamics in general... These factors and more all play a part in how "fast" a car is.

Does one of those numbers somehow refute the point being made? The car probably just got lucky when plugged into GT5's system. There are plenty of examples of cars not matching true-life performance or specs, likely for a variety of reasons.

EDIT: I had thought that the R8 WAS a lot faster than the R10, largely from rule changes. But the GT5 R10 does seem a bit slow, especially considering how slow the 908 isn't. Of course the Pugs were almost always faster on track, it was other things that slowed them down.

 

[Super_Colossal]

I'm pretty sure that the times for the car would've been better if they increased the turbo pressure. They didn't run at maximum pressure because it would've probably overworked the engine over time. Maybe GT5 is trying to replicate an instance had the turbo been optimized for maximum pressure.

 

[mrluckypants]

Does one of those numbers somehow refute the point being made? The car probably just got lucky when plugged into GT5's system. There are plenty of examples of cars not matching true-life performance or specs, likely for a variety of reasons.

EDIT: I had thought that the R8 WAS a lot faster than the R10, largely from rule changes. But the GT5 R10 does seem a bit slow, especially considering how slow the 908 isn't. Of course the Pugs were almost always faster on track, it was other things that slowed them down.

the R10 wasnt built for speed, it was built to be reliable and go long between pit stops. thats how it won.

 

[MrYoungGun]

I think its all about "potential" when it comes to GT5. For whatever reason the minolta did not do well on race day, but the formula used to determine how fast cars are in GT5 seems to think it should be a superior car. Look at the 2J for example, the description given by the game when you view it tells you it had lots of problems during its career, but its a beast in this game. There's so much that goes into GT5 online racing that the best car might not and probably doesn't win the majority of races it enters. Driver skill, tuning, collisions, BS penalties, etc all play a part both IRL and in GT5. I'm okay with the Minolta being the killer it is in GT5, I just wish they would have made it rarer than awarding it to everyone who plays the game for 3 hours.

 

[Lloyd87]

Yes, at least it should have been a very rare car, like the Sauber C9 was in GT4.

And.. also the R8 was built to be both fast and reliable, but if you compare laptimes on several track you'll find out the R10 is (obviously) faster.

GT5 has made much progress since its debut; now I expect next chapter to solve this other problem too.
Thanks for the answers

 

[goukipau]

Its the history of Gran Turismo...: fake fake fake

See here as an example from results from the times as some of the cars competed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_88C
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988_24_Hours_of_Le_Mans
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_24_Hours_of_Le_Mans

and the topspeed measured at Le Mans in the years 1961 - 1989
http://www.mulsannescorner.com/maxspeed.html

Small conclusion; the Toyota 88C-V wasn't nearly as good/fast/reliable as the Jaguar XJR9 LM, or the Sauber Mercedes C9. The makers gave the car 'standard' better settings in game, why it looks that this car is better...

On a small note: I know all the sites and figures given isnt giving a really good proof, but as you read a lot about it on the internet, you will see the above is quite good facts.

 

[Morgoth_666]

Yes, at least it should have been a very rare car, like the Sauber C9 was in GT4.

And.. also the R8 was built to be both fast and reliable, but if you compare laptimes on several track you'll find out the R10 is (obviously) faster.

GT5 has made much progress since its debut; now I expect next chapter to solve this other problem too.
Thanks for the answers

Apologies for not doing the proper research, then. I was going by the many things I've heard watching racing, but I came to start watching just as the R8 was disappearing. In addition, what I could mostly watch was ALMS in which the P1 and P2 classes were normalised so they could pretend that they had healthy fields with actual competition. I think part of it was also that everyone I heard from considered the R8 a near-legendary super-racecar, and the R10 an ugly tank that won on durability alone(efficient design leading to quicker stops helped too, really). Still a lot prettier than where they've gone since, of course.

 

[Lloyd87]

Its the history of Gran Turismo...: fake fake fake

See here as an example from results from the times as some of the cars competed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_88C
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988_24_Hours_of_Le_Mans
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_24_Hours_of_Le_Mans

and the topspeed measured at Le Mans in the years 1961 - 1989
http://www.mulsannescorner.com/maxspeed.html

Small conclusion; the Toyota 88C-V wasn't nearly as good/fast/reliable as the Jaguar XJR9 LM, or the Sauber Mercedes C9. The makers gave the car 'standard' better settings in game, why it looks that this car is better...

On a small note: I know all the sites and figures given isnt giving a really good proof, but as you read a lot about it on the internet, you will see the above is quite good facts.

👍
Maybe it has to do with the brand, being Toyota a JAPANESE manufacter...
If I had had to choose a good Toyota sportscar from the past to put in GT5, I would have said Eagle MKIII, the car which dominated all american races (ex IMSA) from 1991 to 1993.

 

[bluexterra]

Again the "Minolta" Toyota 88C-V, like in GT4, seems to be the fastest car in the game, excluding formula 1 cars and the X1.
I'm making tests of various cars such as Nissan R92CP, Peugeot 908 HDI, Mazda 787B etc.. but although they're very close in terms of performances, the Toyota just signs better lap times.
What do you think of that ?

Also, I still find its performances quite unrealistic.
That car, in real life, never scored important results. Never a victory, neither a pole position nor a fastest lap. To give an example:

-All Japan Sports Prorotype Championship, Season 1988.
4 of 6 races were held on Fuji International Speedway , 4.470 kms.
The fastest lap scored by a Toyota 88C-V, in all four races held on this track, was 1:22.289.

-All Japan Sports Prorotype Championship, Season 1992.
Same track, Fuji International Speedway , 4.470 kms (no track changes since 1988). In three races held here, the fastest time was set by a Nissan R92CP in 1:17.574. Almost 5 seconds better.

The Toyota 88C-V also got disappointing results at Le Mans 88' and 89'.

So why making it such a fast car ?
Performances of cars should not be valued taking just numbers in consideration, such as horsepower and weight.

If you're talking simply top speed, the Bugatti Veyron fully tuned has a ridiculous amount of horsepower and has a higher top speed than the Minolta on the straights. I'd like to race the two on Sarthe no chicanes to see how that would turn out. They don't call them Veypigs for nothing!

 

[yzfmike]

Also to note is that all cars are build to determined specs by the governing body of the series. ALMS is its own series with many rules from ACO that carry over. Rules were different in the 80's and in any other year. So any car from 2010 may or may not perform as well as a car from the 80's.

 

[symustafa1996]

Also to note is that all cars are build to determined specs by the governing body of the series. ALMS is its own series with many rules from ACO that carry over. Rules were different in the 80's and in any other year. So any car from 2010 may or may not perform as well as a car from the 80's.

This being one of the reasons why cars like the Minolta and Sauber being faster and lighter than the R10 and 908.

 

[Lloyd87]

Obviously I'm not talking of top speed, that's the last think to take into consideration when we talk about performances.
Race results and lap times, that's enough.

And rules have changed, yes, that's an important point. In the past, cars mounted engines with more than 1000 hp of power, now they must race with restrictors which decrease their power a lot; also aerodynamics components, such as wings, are under restriction, while there was almost no limitation in the past.
I'm pretty sure that if a modern Peugeot 908 could run under old IMSA rules, it would be much faster.