Air Crash Thread: Boeing MAX and Other Problems

I hadn't realised the FO only had 200 hours - surely that can't be right. Maybe it's 200 hours on type because if it's total passenger jet experience then there's no way he could be placed in command.
He wasn't "in command"; the captain is senior to the first officer. Regardless, I agree that 200 hours seems far too low to be FO on a passenger flight.
Presumably that self-certification was a sham, and they knew that it was unsafe, and put it out there in order to make money even though they knew they'd be effectively murdering customers and that it would tank the company stock, harm sales, and damage their brand reputation. And presumably their knowledge that it was unsafe will be discovered during a lawsuit where they will face criminal charges.

Either that or they did their best to produce a safe, cost-effective, efficient, and more capable aircraft and didn't actually want to murder anybody.
Indeed. It's hard to know what really happened as of yet, and we'll likely never know whether FAA certification would have been denied had self-certification not been introduced, but I find it somewhat difficult to believe that Boeing wilfully released a product with what is quite literally a fatal flaw. A minor flaw I could understand, but it seems that something of this nature would most likely have been fixed given the financial consequences that Boeing is already facing in terms of lost orders/revenue and bad publicity. I can't say for sure, of course, but I highly doubt Boeing knowingly acted maliciously in this case.
 
I can't say for sure, of course, but I highly doubt Boeing knowingly acted maliciously in this case.

I agree. Of course if they did, there will no doubt be a paper trail and someone will go to jail. I've been surprised before, recently VAG surprised the heck out of me with "emissionsgate" (and then there's the UK tower fire). VAG could foresee getting away with it though. If Boeing looked the other way and claimed that something was safe when they knew it wasn't, they'd have to know they wouldn't be getting away with anything. It seems wildly implausible to me.
 
I wonder if some memo from a control-systems engineer (or similar) recommending revised training procedures or at least highlighting the MCAS system will emerge? I could see management disregarding such advice for the sake of business. Maybe rising to the point of negligence. I supremely doubt any malicious intent, however.

/pure speculation
 
This from the Ethiopian Transport Ministry:

ETM
Recently, the FDR and CVR of Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 have been successfully read out. Our experts and US experts have verified the accuracy of the information. The Ethiopian government accepted the information, and the cause of the crash is similar to the Indonesian Flight 610. A preliminary reported will be published in a month with a detailed analysis. We are grateful to the French Government for its ongoing support.
 

A number of ifs... but if this is accurate, particularly the details of the certification being delegated to Boeing followed by a lack of intervention when corrective movement increased four-fold... this will go down in engineering history as a case study of good design pulled astray by corporate certification deadlines, meddling and self-interest. There are a lot of ifs between where we are now and that assertion, but if that article is largely accurate then heads will roll, cert procedures will change drastically, and Boeing will have a lot of work to do to regain industry confidence.
 
A number of ifs... but if this is accurate, particularly the details of the certification being delegated to Boeing followed by a lack of intervention when corrective movement increased four-fold... this will go down in engineering history as a case study of good design pulled astray by corporate certification deadlines, meddling and self-interest. There are a lot of ifs between where we are now and that assertion, but if that article is largely accurate then heads will roll, cert procedures will change drastically, and Boeing will have a lot of work to do to regain industry confidence.
No kidding.

But events now move on. Aspects of this case have come to the attention of a grand jury in the capitol, and a potential criminal investigation is brewing.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/faas-737-max-approval-is-probed-11552868400

By
Andrew Tangel,
Andy Pasztor and
Robert Wall
Updated March 17, 2019 11:14 p.m. ET

Federal prosecutors and Department of Transportation officials are scrutinizing the development of Boeing Co.’s BA 1.52% 737 MAX jetliners, according to people familiar with the matter, unusual inquiries that come amid probes of regulators’ safety approvals of the new plane.

A grand jury in Washington, D.C., issued a broad subpoena dated March 11 to at least one person involved in the 737 MAX’s development, seeking related documents, including correspondence, emails and other messages, one of these people said. The subpoena, with a prosecutor from the Justice Department’s criminal division listed as a contact, sought documents to be handed over later this month.

It wasn’t immediately clear whether the Justice Department’s probe is related to scrutiny of the Federal Aviation Administration by the DOT inspector general’s office, reported earlier Sunday by The Wall Street Journal and that focuses on a safety system that has been implicated in the Oct. 29 Lion Air crash that killed 189 people, according to a government official briefed on its status. Aviation authorities are looking into whether the anti-stall system may have played a role in last week’s Ethiopian Airlines crash, which killed all 157 people on board.

The subpoena was sent a day after the Ethiopian Airlines crash a week ago.

Representatives of the DOT and Justice Department couldn’t immediately be reached late Sunday. The inspector general’s inquiry focuses on ensuring relevant documents and computer files are retained, according to the government official familiar with the matter.

A Boeing spokesman declined to comment, saying the Chicago-based company wouldn’t respond to questions concerning legal matters or governmental inquiries.

The Justice Department probe involves a prosecutor in the fraud section of the department’s criminal division, a unit that has brought cases against well-known manufacturers over safety issues, including Takata Corp.

In the U.S., it is highly unusual for federal prosecutors to investigate details of regulatory approval of commercial aircraft designs, or to use a criminal probe to delve into dealings between the FAA and the largest aircraft manufacturer the agency oversees. Probes of airliner programs or alleged lapses in federal safety oversight typically are handled as civil cases, often by the DOT inspector general. The inspector general, however, does have authority to make criminal referrals to federal prosecutors and has its own special agents.

Repeatedly over the years, U.S. aviation companies and airline officials have been sharply critical of foreign governments, including France, South Korea and others, for conducting criminal probes of some plane makers, their executives and in some cases, even individual pilots, after high-profile or fatal crashes. The FAA’s current enforcement policy stresses enhanced cooperation with domestic airlines and manufacturers—featuring voluntary sharing of important safety data—instead of seeking fines or imposing other punishment.

The U.S. government scrutiny comes as Ethiopia’s transport minister, Dagmawit Moges, said there were “clear similarities” between the two crashes. U.S. officials cautioned that it was too early to draw conclusions because data from the black boxes of the Ethiopian Airlines plane still need to be analyzed.

The two crashes have sparked the biggest crisis Boeing has faced in about two decades, threatening sales of a plane model that has been the aircraft giant’s most stable revenue source and potentially making it more time consuming and difficult to get future aircraft designs certified as safe to fly.

The Transportation Department’s inquiry was launched in the wake of the Lion Air accident and is being conducted by its inspector general, which has warned two FAA offices to safeguard computer files, according to people familiar with the matter. The internal watchdog is seeking to determine whether the agency used appropriate design standards and engineering analyses in certifying the anti-stall system, known as MCAS.

The FAA said Sunday that the 737 MAX, which entered service in 2017, was approved to carry passengers as part of the agency’s “standard certification process,” including design analyses; ground and flight tests; maintenance requirements; and cooperation with other civil aviation authorities. Agency officials in the past have declined to comment on various decisions regarding specific systems. Sunday’s statement said the agency’s “certification processes are well established and have consistently produced safe aircraft.”

Earlier, a Boeing spokesman said: “The 737 MAX was certified in accordance with the identical FAA requirements and processes that have governed certification of all previous new airplanes and derivatives. The FAA considered the final configuration and operating parameters of MCAS during MAX certification, and concluded that it met all certification and regulatory requirements.”

Investigators near debris at the site of last week’s Ethiopian Airlines crash. PHOTO: TONY KARUMBA/AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE/GETTY IMAGES

Boeing Chief Executive Dennis Muilenburg said in a statement Sunday the company continues to support the Ethiopian investigation, “and is working with the authorities to evaluate new information as it becomes available.”

Mr. Muilenburg added: “As part of our standard practice following any accident, we examine our aircraft design and operation, and when appropriate, institute product updates to further improve safety.”

A Department of Transportation spokesman declined to comment about the investigation by the inspector general. Representatives of the office couldn’t be reached on Sunday.

Governments world-wide have grounded the MAX, an updated version of the decades-old 737, while investigators and engineers seek clues.

The Department of Transportation inquiry, which hasn’t been previously reported, focuses on a Seattle-area FAA office that certifies the safety of brand new aircraft models and subsequent versions, as well as a separate office in the same region in charge of mandating training requirements and signing off on fleetwide training programs, people familiar with the matter said.

Files and documents covered by the directive also pertain to the FAA’s decision that extra flight-simulator training on the automated system wouldn’t be required for pilots transitioning from older models, according to people familiar with the matter.

Officials in those offices have been told not to delete any emails, reports or internal messages pertaining to those topics, people familiar with the matter said, adding that the probe also is scrutinizing communication between the FAA and Boeing.

The Department of Transportation inquiry is casting a wide net for documents about potential agency lapses just as House and Senate committees prepare for public hearings in the coming weeks that are expected to grill the FAA’s senior leadership on the same topics.

The DOT inquiry is likely to raise more questions about how Boeing designed the airliner, how pilots are trained to fly it and the decisions the FAA took approving the model. The result could be changes to how the FAA certifies aircraft models, particularly giving more scrutiny to design changes from earlier models.


The FAA is moving to require more extensive training on the anti-stall system than Boeing had been championing, according to people familiar with the deliberations. The more-robust instruction, consisting of pilots engaging in self-guided instruction on a laptop computer, would include more details and require more time to complete than reading a handout, according to people familiar with the matter. Boeing has been advocating comparatively limited training, the people said, consisting of new, written materials aviators would receive explaining operation of the automated stall-prevention feature—and how to respond if it malfunctions.

The investigation is the latest problem for a plane that was born in a different kind of corporate emergency, according to industry officials and engineers close to the company: an urgent need in 2011 to create a relatively small, fuel-efficient jetliner that could compete with a model from rival Airbus SE that had swiftly gained traction among customers. A person familiar with Boeing’s development of the plane said the company didn’t rush the project, which had been on the drawing board for some time then.

To meet the marketing and financial imperatives of speedy FAA certification, Boeing needed to build a plane that would handle basically the same as earlier versions of its 737. From the outset, that was a regulatory requirement in order to obtain certification as a so-called derivative model, which would translate into a significantly faster approval process and traditionally less FAA scrutiny of certain systems.


M


M


Versions of the Boeing 737 have been flying for decades. Clockwise from top left, 737s in 1968, 1977, 2008 and 2017.PHOTOS: CLOCKWISE FROM TOP LEFT: MUSEUM OF FLIGHT/CORBIS/GETTY IMAGES (2); DAVID MCNEW/GETTY IMAGES; BAYNE STANLEY/ZUMA PRESS
The automated anti-stall system, called the maneuvering characteristics augmentation system, initially was intended to assist cockpit crews in the unlikely event that high-altitude, high-speed maneuvers suddenly pushed up the nose more than aviators anticipated. The goal was to make cockpit controls behave the same as they did in previous models, even though behind the scenes the automated system was doing much of the work.

But as the engineering effort and flight tests progressed, according to industry and FAA officials familiar with the process, the Boeing team saw the same feature as a potentially important safety net for a different hazard highlighted in previous crashes: lower-altitude stalls in which startled pilots mistakenly pulled back on the controls and sometimes crashed aircraft. FAA officials also recognized the potential benefits and approved the system as part of the overall MAX approval.

Outside experts now contend both Boeing and the FAA underestimated the accompanying risks—and installed a system that wasn’t highlighted in manuals or pilot training.

The FAA’s green light, according to safety experts and former agency officials, came in part because earlier versions of the 737 had proved so safe.

During some of the discussions with the FAA, according to people familiar with the matter, Boeing’s team persuaded the agency that the system shouldn’t be considered so essential that its failure could result in a catastrophic accident. As a result, it would be acceptable for the system to rely on a single sensor. In the Lion Air crash, investigators believe, faulty data sent by a single sensor led the MCAS system to erroneously push the plane’s nose down steeply, triggering a fatal plunge into the ocean.

The MAX’s grounding threatens Boeing’s ability to generate cash with plane deliveries halted. Boeing, which has been minting 737s at an unprecedented clip of 52 planes a month, plans to reach 57 planes monthly this year.

The 737 has been a cash cow for Boeing since shortly after it entered service in 1967. Last year, Boeing delivered to Southwest Airlines Co. the 10,000th 737 to roll off its production line in Seattle. It was an industry record for any airliner. The company has a backlog of more than 4,600 of the planes airlines have ordered and yet to receive.

Boeing was toying with a new plane to replace the 737, launched in 1967, and had engineers working on the new plane concept. While many airlines liked the idea, existing 737 customers didn’t want to retrain their pilots at huge cost and so lobbied for an updated, more-efficient 737 they could also get faster and more cheaply.

Then in 2011 Boeing learned that American Airlines , one of its best customers, had struck a tentative deal with Airbus for potentially hundreds of A320neo planes to renew its short-haul fleet. American invited Boeing to make a counter-offer. Boeing realized it needed to act fast, and offered what would become the MAX.

A senior Boeing executive said late Sunday the MAX was the company’s clear choice from options including a new airplane or a re-engine of the 737 NG. “The decision had to offer the best value to customers, including operating economics as well as timing, which was clearly a strong factor,” this executive said, noting the company embarked on a six-year, consistent and methodical development program.

American eventually bought 260 Airbus planes and agreed to take 200 upgraded 737s from Boeing.

To win customers, and avoid more defections to Airbus, Boeing also made commitments that there would be minimal requirements for new pilot training, which can be costly to airlines, especially if expensive flight-simulator sessions are needed, according to people familiar with the matter. So Boeing tried to minimize differences from its existing fleet. Pilots were never specifically trained, for instance, on the MCAS system. There remains disagreement among U.S. pilots about whether such additional training was necessary since an existing procedure would disable the system.

Boeing has said it developed the MAX’s training and manuals as part of its normal process and its aim was to provide information pilots needed to safely operate the aircraft. The FAA approved the manuals and training.

Rick Ludtke, a former Boeing flight deck design engineer who worked on the MAX but wasn’t directly involved with the MCAS system, said managers applied significant pressure to keep costs low and timetables quick.

“The pressure was incredible to be fast” to keep pace with Airbus, Mr. Ludtke said.

A former senior Boeing official recalled a “healthy urgency that comes from competition” in producing the MAX, but no “undue pressure on the design or the team.”

The senior Boeing executive added: “Safety is our highest priority as we design, build and support our airplanes.”

A Boeing spokesman didn’t immediately respond Sunday to a request for comment about the former Boeing engineer and official’s recollections.

Boeing started building the first MAX in June 2015.

—Aruna Viswanatha, Ted Mann, Gabriele Steinhauser and Daniel Michaels contributed to this article.

Write to Andrew Tangel at Andrew.Tangel@wsj.com, Andy Pasztor at andy.pasztor@wsj.com and Robert Wall at robert.wall@wsj.com

Appeared in the March 18, 2019, print edition as 'Boeing Jet Draws Criminal Probe.'
 
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The jackscrew at the stop in the Ethopian crash seems to confirm most of the speculation. Yikes. A control system operating off of input from a SINGLE sensor, with no checks, had unlimited authority and there was no additional training to highlight that - all because Boeing didn't want customers to have to retrain pilots....because doing so would make them appear more expensive. This won't end well for Boeing. It probably won't end well for the FAA.
 
Is this plane one of those new Fuel efficient designs where they do some trickery with the Jet turbine so it uses less fuel?
 
Is this plane one of those new Fuel efficient designs where they do some trickery with the Jet turbine so it uses less fuel?

Not sure exactly what you mean, but the point of the MAX was to use newer, more efficient engines yes. I gather that the problem is that the 737 is a very low airplane, and the engines had to be mounted very far forward (thus placing a high moment along the wing axis I suppose?) to fit with adequate clearance to the ground. The basic physics of the engine placement is what leads to the tendency for it to pitch up.
 
Is this plane one of those new Fuel efficient designs where they do some trickery with the Jet turbine so it uses less fuel?
As opposed to the new aircraft not designed to be fuel efficient? Fuel efficiency in relation to passenger capacity/distance is the name of the game when it comes to new aircraft. Everyone is moving to higher and higher bypass engines and lightweight materials.
 
Is this plane one of those new Fuel efficient designs where they do some trickery with the Jet turbine so it uses less fuel?
It's not a matter of tricky, large fan diameters are more efficient because they move a larger mass of air (more momentum) at lower exhaust velocity (less kinetic energy taken from fuel).
 
Is this plane one of those new Fuel efficient designs where they do some trickery with the Jet turbine so it uses less fuel?

Yes, the new engines are arguably the biggest selling point of the MAX generation. Cost indexes are lower so customer profits are higher.

The problem is that the engines have a larger diameter and are slightly heavier than the existing units. MAX has extended landing gear and the engines are placed further forward. The upper nacelles generate more lift than previous generations which, combined with the engine exits sitting further forward on the centre axis of lift, can lead to the nose rising far too readily in certain power situatations

Is there any established Downsides to this method?

The computer overcompensates for Angle of Attack sensor errors and flies itself straight into the ground.
 
Is there any established Downsides to this method?
Not directly, but as @Eunos_Cosmo points out packaging can become an issue when trying to install larger engines on an existing aircraft. The 737 was originally designed for very small (and inefficient) turbojets common in the 60's. The 737 NG which preceded the MAX had to have specially shaped engine nacelles to let the engines clear the ground. The 737 MAX's engines are so big that it could not fit them in the original position, so they were moved. This changed the aerodynamic balance of the aircraft which caused Boeing to develop MCAS.

I don't consider the use of flight control augmentation a problem in anyway, but if it is not correctly tested or reliable, it can lead to serious problems.
 
For reference:

OG 737:
737-200.jpg


737NG
img-boeing-737ng-1.jpg


737 MAX 8
Fiji-Airways-Boeing-737-MAX-8-aircraft.jpg


You can see how much bigger and further forward the engines are compared to the original design, so much so that they physically wouldn't fit under the wing.
 
I never really noticed how far forward the Max engines are until seeing that. It looks like the progression of a pint glass slipping from your hand.
 
I never really noticed how far forward the Max engines are until seeing that. It looks like the progression of a pint glass slipping from your hand.

I was thinking it reminded me of a certain cosmetic surgery procedure. You see somebody you haven't seen in a while and you notice something seems a little more in the foreground. :lol:
 
https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-lion-air-boeing-737-pilot-20190319-story.html
https://news.sky.com/story/boeing-7...s-before-lion-air-crash-in-indonesia-11670763

It looks like the aircraft that was involved in the Lion Air crash was saved by a ride-along pilot who knew the procedure to take the plane out of the artificial dive the day before. The procedure is to disable the malfunctioning flight control system. After the crew changed, and the ride-along pilot had exited, a new set of pilots ended up in an crash. Blackbox recordings suggest that they were scouring the manuals for procedures on the way down.
 
Blackbox recordings suggest that they were scouring the manuals for procedures on the way down.

Simply awful. This is one of the reasons that the software update is so crucial, it'll add MCAS alerts and AoA Disagree alerts to the automatic checklist available on the glass screens when errors are reported (or so I understand). My feeling is that while the MCAS system itself won't be found to be faulty there will be fault found in procedures for certifying it and making sure that all aircrews are aware of how it works, when it works and symptoms of error. That surely has to come back to both Boeing and the FAA... and the relationship between the two of them should rightly be scrutinised.
 
US Justice Department prosecutors have issued multiple subpoenas as part of an investigation into Boeing's Federal Aviation Administration certification and marketing of 737 Max planes, sources briefed on the matter told CNN.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/20/business/boeing-justice-department-subpoenas/index.html

If that story's correct it's interesting that there might be a criminal liability. I imagine it'll be related to the "surprise" of the FAA at the amount of authority MCAS had to move the tail, according to this story that @Dotini linked it was far more than Boeing had told the FAA would be authorised. Can that constitute some kind of reckless endangerment?
 
If that story's correct it's interesting that there might be a criminal liability. I imagine it'll be related to the "surprise" of the FAA at the amount of authority MCAS had to move the tail, according to this story that @Dotini linked it was far more than Boeing had told the FAA would be authorised. Can that constitute some kind of reckless endangerment?

If the airplane was certified with the (FAA) understanding that the trim was limited to 0.6 degrees, but in fact was changed after certification (which appears to be the case) to allow effectively unlimited trim, than that is probably gross negligence.

From wiki:

"Under United States law, proof of gross negligence involves proving all of the elements of an ordinary negligence action, plus the additional element that the defendant acted in reckless disregard of, or with a lack of substantial concern for, the rights of others."
 
From wiki:

"Under United States law, proof of gross negligence involves proving all of the elements of an ordinary negligence action, plus the additional element that the defendant acted in reckless disregard of, or with a lack of substantial concern for, the rights of others."

There's quite a difficulty there - if we assume it's correct to say that Boeing didn't correctly inform flight crews of how/when/why MCAS worked correctly or incorrectly then that's quite possibly negligent. That isn't to say that MCAS isn't a vital, normal, safe system with correct type training, even if it commands full elevator control. There are many automated systems on passenger jets that require a technical understanding of what they're doing and when, that's all part of the training. It's the omission of this from training, manuals and FCM checklists that seems (to me) to be the significant problem.

After all, most Airbus jets can allow the computer to override all the control surfaces when a stall is detected. That's led to very few in-service crashes although a few went wrong before full passenger roll-out. Air France 447 is an obvious one, but there was a lot of error between the two flying officers too.

The big question is how did Boeing (apparently) get the introduction of the system so wrong and why didn't the FAA have the correct oversight.
 
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