Aliens

[Alex p.]

@ blaaah: ?. What sense does that make?

 

[blaaah]

In what way does it not make sense?

 

[PeterJB]

Probably because making a theory would be pointless if you intend to prove it is wrong.

 

[blaaah]

That is how it is done professionally and in any way in science.
You have the best theory when no matter what you have done you have been unable to prove it wrong. And you must show in every way how you have tried to prove it wrong, that is where the strength is.

 

[WVUscion]

Blaah is right, even though the fervor in which people should be required to find counter evidence to their hypothesis is subjective. I don't know much about Hoover, or his article for that matter, but immediately discrediting others who counter your ideas solely because their ideas are counter to yours is called a Freudian Shield.

 

[Touring Mars]

The principle of science is if you have an idea, you spend all the hard work and time trying to prove your idea is wrong not right.

@ blaaah: ?. What sense does that make?

The sense being that you can never prove a theory right, you can only prove it to be wrong. You can do experiments that yield results consistent with your theory, and that data therefore will become part of the theory - but the theory is not 'proved right', but merely 'validated' in so far as it was tested by that particular experiment. It might turn out, however, that another experiment will prove the theory to be incorrect, and so a new theory that accounts for the previous evidence and the new evidence must be made. So, a theory can be proved wrong, while it can never be proved right. As such, theories that have been repeatedly tested and validated in this way represent the best way to understand the physical world - that they can never be 'proved right' is irrelevant. Ironically, it is the very fact that they are testable and therefore can be proved wrong that gives them their strength.

While most scientists would perhaps not chose to describe their results or their efforts as 'trying to prove the theory wrong', that is what is happening anyway, because that is what the scientific method is all about. I believe the point about the Hoover paper than blaaah was making is that there doesn't seem to be enough consideration to the possible alternative explanations for the observations presented in the data, 'falsifications' so to speak.

 

[Dotini]

I believe the point about the Hoover paper than blaaah was making is that there doesn't seem to be enough consideration to the possible alternative explanations for the observations presented in the data, 'falsifications' so to speak.

It would be amusing to see what sort of falsifications GTP readers could propose regarding Hoover's data.

His hypothesis is that microbe-like objects (dead fossils) appear in extraterrestrial rocks.

Other possible explanations may be:
1) The microbe-like objects are actually geology mimicking microbes.
2) The meteoric rocks were contaminated with Earthly microbes shortly after they fell - microbes penetrated to the interior of the rock.
3) The meteoric rock containing microbes actually originated on Earth during a catastrophe which drove the rocks into space, which fell back during a later epoch.
4) The microbe fossils were planted as a hoax by Hoover.
5) The microbe fossils were planted as a hoax by rival scientists.
6) The microbe fossils were planted as a hoax by aliens.
7) The whole affair is a government hoax to condition humanity to the false idea of alien life.
8) The whole affair is a government hoax to condition humanity to the true idea of alien life.
9) ?

 

[blaaah]

http://rrresearch.blogspot.com/2011/03/is-this-claim-of-bacteria-in-meteorite.html

Critical researcher blog above, conclusion below.
"Bottom line:

The Ivuna meteorite sample showed a couple of micron-scale squiggles, one of which contained about 2.5-fold more carbon than the background. One of the five Orguil samples had at least one patch of clustered fibers; these contained more sulfur and magnesium than the background, and less silicon. As evidence for life this is pathetic, no better than that presented by McKay's group for the ALH84001 Martian meteorite in 1996.

The Journal and the Editor aren't very impressive either:

The journal proudly announces that it is obtaining and will publish 100 post-publication reviews. But did it bother getting any pre-publication reviews? It will be shutting down in a few months, after only two years of on-line publication (the 13 'volumes' are really just 13 issues). Its presentation standards are pretty bad - there doesn't seem to have been any effort at copy-editing or formatting the text for publication (not even any page numbers).

Chandra Wickramasinghe is the journal's Executive Editor for Astrobiology, and presumably is the Editor responsible for this article. I heard him give a talk pushing panspermia about 10 years ago (the audience was an undergraduate science society at Oxford). The talk was very slick but dreadfully bad as science. The evidence he cited to support his arguments wasn't actually untrue, but he twisted everything to make his arguments seem stronger than they were. He argued like a lawyer - his only goal seemed to be convincing the audience that his conclusion was correct, regardless of the contrary evidence that an unbiased consideration of the evidence would provide. Thus I wouldn't trust his scientific judgment about anything concerning astrobiology."

 

[Touring Mars]

The JOC have hit back at the criticism, in a statement entitled "Have The Terrorists Won?" they say that mainstream scientists have:

...responded with a barrage of slanderous attacks. They are lying to you.

They go on to say this:

Have the Terrorist Won? Only a few crackpots and charlatans have denounced the Hoover study. NASA's chief scientist was charged with unprofessional conduct for lying publicly about the Journal of Cosmology and the Hoover paper. The same crackpots, self-promoters, liars, and failures, are quoted repeatedly in the media. However, where is the evidence the Hoover study is not accurate?

It seems quite extraordinary that this is the kind of response you will get if you dare to criticise something published in their journal. Terrorists? Crackpots? Charlatans? Liars? Failures? Self-Promoters? Is this really the kind of discourse that a professional, respectable journal should be using when addressing those who have every right to respond?

Criticism or no criticism, a book based on the paper (and co-authored by editors of the JOC) is already available for pre-order from Amazon, priced $48.

 

[Famine]

Ahhh, Chandra "SARS came from space" Wickramasinghe.

 

[Dotini]

The best explanation so far is geology mimicking biology:

http://www.deseretnews.com/blog/47/10011606/Nightly-news-astronomy-Alien-Fossils.html?pg=4
One of the critical statements, made available by the Journal of Cosmology on its web site, is by Martin D. Brasier of the Department of Earth Sciences, Oxford University.

Some of Hoover's filaments could be formations of non-biological origin called ambient inclusion trails (AITs), Brasier wrote. "Such AITs are formed by the forward projection of minerals under gaseous pressure through a solid or liquid medium. Such trails can be recognised by their distinctive infillings with secondary minerals; by longitudinal striations along their edges; by their irregular or polygonal cross sections; by their curved and twisted patterns; and by a tendency for some of them to cross cut or branch ..."

click image to enlarge

[Intrusion trails, not formed through biology. The photo is from Brasier's critique, published by the Journal of Cosmology]

Brasier added, "Many AITs have a similar composition to those described from the meteorites by Hoover (filaments with margins enriched in carbon and infilled with sulphur and silica rich minerals). Such abiogenic [non-biological] scenarios require rigorous investigation."

Rigorous investigation is exactly what the research will receive, as scientists continue to examine the results. That's the scientific method.

Also this:http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2011-03/08/nasa-distances-itself-from-aliens

In my lay opinion, the geology intrusion trails depicted in Brasier's photos seem crude and primitive compared to Hoover's filaments, which are much more finely detailed and complex.

If these objects were found in meteorites observed to have freshly fallen, as I think some were, then the hypothesis that the meteorites' origin might have been Earth itself should be closely considered. However, there was some evidence as to nitrogen content which confuses things.

 

[Touring Mars]

It would be amusing to see what sort of falsifications GTP readers could propose regarding Hoover's data.

His hypothesis is that microbe-like objects (dead fossils) appear in extraterrestrial rocks.

Other possible explanations may be:
1) The microbe-like objects are actually geology mimicking microbes.
2) The meteoric rocks were contaminated with Earthly microbes shortly after they fell - microbes penetrated to the interior of the rock.
3) The meteoric rock containing microbes actually originated on Earth during a catastrophe which drove the rocks into space, which fell back during a later epoch.
4) The microbe fossils were planted as a hoax by Hoover.
5) The microbe fossils were planted as a hoax by rival scientists.
6) The microbe fossils were planted as a hoax by aliens.
7) The whole affair is a government hoax to condition humanity to the false idea of alien life.
8) The whole affair is a government hoax to condition humanity to the true idea of alien life.
9) ?

Or, could it be that the journal chose to publish a controversial paper (that had already been rejected by the Journal of Astrobiology - you have to ask why they'd choose to ignore the greatest scientific development of all time...) to boost its profile and hence its value, just before its imminent sale? Rudy Schild himself has said that the sale of the journal was 'a factor in play' and 'the purpose of the exercise here is having it released and having it discussed'. The former raises eyebrows as much as the article itself, while the latter is beyond naive... 'having it discussed' or generating debate is really not the best way for science to proceed.

Also, is it really necessary for the title of the paper itself to be a link directly to the Amazon bookstore, where they are selling their own books?

 

[Dotini]

Also, is it really necessary for the title of the paper itself to be a link directly to the Amazon bookstore, where they are selling their own books?

Elsewhere it has been urged that government (the public) cease paying for science experiments. Private industry can only fund research if there is a short term pay-off in books, articles, movie royalties and such. The public must be excited and involved for any real money to be spent by either government or industry. That could mean debate and controversy - something FOX specializes in. Harvard and the Smithsonian, who are connected to the paper, need money as much as any other institution.

Personally, I would hesitate to regard extraterrestrial life as "the greatest scientific development of all time", since any practical importance or benefit is questionable, and the recognition of it could have negative consequences for Earthly civilizations, as the Brookings Institution has warned.

 

[Alex p.]

I would really LOVE to recommend this series on "Aliens" to EVERYBODY (even to those here, who think I am a stupid, idiotical, fear-mongering conspiracy nut).
Really people, just open your mind for once and give this a chance and watch all of it, in order to really be able to understand all of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqoMNnVDH3k&feature=related

I have watched like hundreds or even thousands of videos on that subject, read a lot about it and probably saw dozens of serieses on it, but this series just BLEW my mind. It is so phenomenally well directed and produced, it IS objective and talks about most of the "Alien" topics and looks on them from (for most people) VERY bizarre perspectives.
I am just in awe of this, this is truly the best series I was able to find until this day and it is very recent, modern, new too.

EDIT: I believe the most important message of this series is: "Search for the truth."
I think I can safely say this is my life-philosophy. TRUE spirituality can ONLY be found by really searching for the TRUTH, by searching for the good AND the bad. Concentrating only on negativity is as wrong as concentrating only on positivity (New Age movement). There it really is of outmost importance to see the world for what it is, and what is much more important, to see yourself for what YOU are. I had to admit to myself a lot of unpleasant things about myself, it was not easy, but who said "it" is going to be easy. How can we expect the truth to be "easy" or pleasant, when the world is full of suffering and injustice?
I have been attacked many times by others by pointing out "the truth" about certain topics, it really is no wonder that people get almost furious, when you confront them with truth, as it is not pleasant, or at least a big part of it, not all and everything is bad.
I do not want to portray myself as a victim, but let's be honest, how many people did we torture and kill, only because they were trying to tell us the truth about certain things?

 

[birksy82]

I saw another strange thing the other night, it was moving steadily but not too fast and was triangular in shape, it had dim lights around it, this is how I noticed it and I pointed it out to my girlfriend who saw it too. It was directly above us and it also made no sound.

I'm not saying this is alien, it could be experimental, what else could it be? I have no idea other than the 2 things that I have mentioned, have we really got the technology to make an engine that makes no sound? Would experimental aircraft be flying without the usual flashing lights that are on normal planes?

 

[Dotini]

I saw another strange thing the other night, it was moving steadily but not too fast and was triangular in shape, it had dim lights around it, this is how I noticed it and I pointed it out to my girlfriend who saw it too. It was directly above us and it also made no sound.

I'm not saying this is alien, it could be experimental, what else could it be? I have no idea other than the 2 things that I have mentioned, have we really got the technology to make an engine that makes no sound? Would experimental aircraft be flying without the usual flashing lights that are on normal planes?

Over 80% of UFO sightings are explainable in prosaic terms.

You could have been seeing the light of the planet Venus reflected off duck butts. Or been drinking/doping heavily and hallucinating. Hoaxes are high on the list of possibilities. That's where we must start.

Assuming we can eliminate all possible prosaic explanations, which we couldn't do without an extensive investigation, we are left with "unknown". Aliens are not an acceptable explanation for many reasons, not least of which is that they have never been confirmed to exist. In the "unknown" category are natural but poorly understood phenomena such as ball lightning.

Your government concedes there is a phenomenon, but assures that it's harmless and will not accept let alone investigate your report.

Edit: A super-far-out possibility is inorganic life from the Sun. See here:http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2008/30oct_ftes/

 

[BobK]

Edit: A super-far-out possibility is inorganic life from the Sun. See here:http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2008/30oct_ftes/

I could find no reference to life from the sun in that article, inorganic or otherwise. May I trouble you to quote the relevant part(s) please?

 

[Dotini]

I could find no reference to life from the sun in that article, inorganic or otherwise. May I trouble you to quote the relevant part(s) please?

Thanks for your question, BobK. It's good to see the occasional inquisitive mind. I've made numerous posts on this subject at various points going back much earlier in the thread, the most recent just 3 pages back. However, I'll round them up once again for readers unwilling or unable to read through the whole thread.

It first of all must be appreciated that this thread is necessarily rather light-hearted, speculative and well short of being established science, since absolutely not one scintilla of acceptable evidence has ever been produced to support the presence of alien life either here or anywhere else. Even so, we have this thread - not established by me - and I have chosen to contribute. I've striven to make my contributions based either on my direct first person experience, or based on science sources such as NASA.

In the post above I've attempted to establish how plasma from the Sun routinely visits the surface of the Earth. http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2008/30oct_ftes/
Edit: http://www.electricquakes.com/
Edit 2: Same article but with comment by physicists or students of physics. http://www.physorg.com/news144677133.html
In the material from one recent post, now reprinted below, I've attempted to establish the possibility of inorganic life in plasma by making available recent laboratory science on this question. Putting two and two together - the notion of inorganic life from the Sun - is original and entirely my own, but obviously arises as a far-out but remotely conceivable explanation for some of the observed phenomena. Particularly in lieu of acceptable explanations for that hitherto unexplained set of UFO unknowns resembling plasma blobs.

Respectfully,
Dotini

Edit entry #1:http://iopscience.iop.org/1367-2630/9/8/263/fulltext
Abstract. Complex plasmas may naturally self-organize themselves into stable interacting helical structures that exhibit features normally attributed to organic living matter. The self-organization is based on non-trivial physical mechanisms of plasma interactions involving over-screening of plasma polarization. As a result, each helical string composed of solid microparticles is topologically and dynamically controlled by plasma fluxes leading to particle charging and over-screening, the latter providing attraction even among helical strings of the same charge sign. These interacting complex structures exhibit thermodynamic and evolutionary features thought to be peculiar only to living matter such as bifurcations that serve as `memory marks', self-duplication, metabolic rates in a thermodynamically open system, and non-Hamiltonian dynamics. We examine the salient features of this new complex `state of soft matter' in light of the autonomy, evolution, progenity and autopoiesis principles used to define life. It is concluded that complex self-organized plasma structures exhibit all the necessary properties to qualify them as candidates for inorganic living matter that may exist in space provided certain conditions allow them to evolve naturally.


Edit #2: http://ezinearticles.com/?Plasma-Lif...dies&id=783224
In 2003 physicists; Erzilia Lozneanu and Mircea Sanduloviciu of Cuza University, Romania, described in their research paper Minimal Cell System created in Laboratory by Self-Organization (published in Chaos, Solitons & Fractals, volume 18, page 335), how they created plasma spheres in the laboratory that can grow, replicate and communicate - fulfilling most of the traditional requirements for biological cells. They are convinced that these plasma spheres offer a radically new explanation of how life began and proposed that they were precursors to biological evolution.

http://www.dapla.org/pdf/Lozneanu1.pdf
"Thus, similar to biological cells, the boundary of a self-assembled gaseous cell provides a selective enclosure of an environment that qualitatively differs from the surrounding medium. The boundary appears as a spherical self-consistent electrical double layer (DL) able to sustain and control operations such as: (i) capture and transformation of energy, (ii) preferential and rhythmic exchange of matter across the system boundary and (iii) internal transformation of matter by means of a continuous ‘‘synthesis’’ of all components of the system."

Edit #3: http://www.plasma-universe.com/index.php/Double_layer
# Bio-physical analogy: A model of plasma double layers has been used to investigate their applicability to understanding ion transport across biological cell membranes.[46] Brazilian researchers have note that "Concepts like charge neutrality, Debye length, and double layer are very useful to explain the electrical properties of a cellular membrane.".[47] Plasma physicist Hannes Alfvén also noted that association of double layers with cellular structure,[48] as had Irving Langmuir before him, who coined the named "plasma" after its resemblance to blood cells.[49]

Edit #4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7jKL2-B0QA
Video lecture on Water, Energy and Life - all about plasma in water. <--TM needs to see this!

 

[BobK]

So the short answer is, no, there was no reference to life on the sun. Which makes me wonder why you cited it in such a way that one might infer that there was.

 

[Dotini]

So the short answer is, no, there was no reference to life on the sun. Which makes me wonder why you cited it in such a way that one might infer that there was.

Two reasons:
1) I was mainly hoping that most readers of this thread would have been already following my posts on inorganic life in plasma.
2) In case they had not - like you - it gave me the welcome opportunity combine disassociated bits of the story into one post currently at the top of the Opinons & Current Events forum at a time when there was a wide audience online.

Edit: Let's be clear I'm not claiming there is inorganic life dwelling on the Sun. It may be that the plasma organizes itself en route. Really, I'm not "claiming" anything at all. It amuses me to present imaginative possible solutions to anomalous problems.

 

[birksy82]

What I saw was definitely a solid object with dim lights around it, I'm not saying it is aliens and I'm not saying it isn't either, I just don't know but I like to keep an open mind rather than convincing myself that it is or isn't something. The only reason I posted it in this thread is because it has some relevance to the topic.

I'm not at all surprised that the government doesn't take reports of sightings seriously, judging by the mental states of some people in my country .
I don't understand why people report them either tbh I don't see the point, when I saw this and others in the past I didn't feel threatened or worried by them, how could I if I don't know what they are? I've got to say that the swamp gas and light from venus is a laughable theory for this, it's no wonder why so many people think the governments are covering it up .

I've seen your posts about plasma dotini and it's very interesting, it makes you wonder how much more there is on this earth that hasn't been discovered yet, doesn't it?

 

[Dotini]

I've seen your posts about plasma dotini and it's very interesting, it makes you wonder how much more there is on this earth that hasn't been discovered yet, doesn't it?

birksy82, thanks very much for your original post and for this one. It's hard for me to express just how gratifying it is to receive occasional favorable comment on the work I'm doing here. It makes the negative responses much easier to endure. Your perceptiveness to notice the phenomenon and courage to post here is commended.

With regard to undiscovered phenomena it's impossible to know how much remains, but it's probably a lot. Mercifully for me, there is much that already is discovered, but either forgotten or ignored.

Very highest regards,
Dotini

 

[G.T.Ace]

I saw another strange thing the other night, it was moving steadily but not too fast and was triangular in shape, it had dim lights around it, this is how I noticed it and I pointed it out to my girlfriend who saw it too. It was directly above us and it also made no sound.

I'm not saying this is alien, it could be experimental, what else could it be? I have no idea other than the 2 things that I have mentioned, have we really got the technology to make an engine that makes no sound? Would experimental aircraft be flying without the usual flashing lights that are on normal planes?

Just want to add something to the "no sound" thing.
I was traveling on a ship a couple of years ago and there were a lot of military planes flying in a certain area, including A-10 Warthogs, which are usually very loud. But one flew very low (you could read everything on the plane) straight over our ship and you couldn't hear anything. I am not sure if this is a psychological effect, or if the frequencies were so deep, that the ears couldn't handle it anymore, but it felt really strange.

 

[birksy82]

birksy82, thanks very much for your original post and for this one. It's hard for me to express just how gratifying it is to receive occasional favorable comment on the work I'm doing here. It makes the negative responses much easier to endure. Your perceptiveness to notice the phenomenon and courage to post here is commended.

With regard to undiscovered phenomena it's impossible to know how much remains, but it's probably a lot. Mercifully for me, there is much that already is discovered, but either forgotten or ignored.

Very highest regards,
Dotini

You deserve at least a decent reply from people to what you post on here imo, whether they choose to believe it or not. Like I said in my last post I keep an open mind on things but a lot of people do not seem to be capable of this, for what reasons I don't know.

I know from experience that some things contradict what I am supposed to believe, they are not major things but to me they make a difference to my life and the way I see and think about things.

Just want to add something to the "no sound" thing.
I was traveling on a ship a couple of years ago and there were a lot of military planes flying in a certain area, including A-10 Warthogs, which are usually very loud. But one flew very low (you could read everything on the plane) straight over our ship and you couldn't hear anything. I am not sure if this is a psychological effect, or if the frequencies were so deep, that the ears couldn't handle it anymore, but it felt really strange.

That's very interesting gtace, I have never experienced this but I have not been to any airshows or seen many planes other than the normal passenger planes and such.

 

[Dotini]

This article, unfortunately lacking video, offers support for UFO's as an electromagnetic plasma phenomenon.

http://www.huliq.com/10282/ufo-sightings-over-japan-predicted-secret-british-alien-report-files

According to Japan&#8217;s Kyodo News Agency and other Japanese media, there&#8217;s been hundreds and upwards of &#8220;thousands of UFO sightings&#8221; over the country since Friday&#8217;s 8.9 magnitude earthquake. Also, video footage from the news channel NHK World English and personal videos show a UFO speeding with bright lights in the sky and then skimming over the Pacific near the quake zones in Japan. The UFO sighting videos have been show on regional TV and the Internet since Friday, with the world UFO community noting &#8220;strange light trails following the UFO&#8217;s over Japan.&#8221;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpp0JReCKkk&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyLo2KhoDDM&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TY45UJGY4JE&feature=related

Moreover, a rare air defense video from Japan shows a new UFO flying over the nuclear-powered aircraft carrier USS Ronald Regan early Monday morning, as the carrier and accompanying guided-missile cruiser and destroyer ships arrived off Japan&#8217;s coast to help with disaster response.

The British government&#8217;s massive hoard of secret UFO files &#8211; that basically confirms that we are not alone and UFO&#8217;s and alien life of some sort has been visiting Earth since there was a human being here &#8211; also points to startling record keeping that links major world calamities to what one secret file calls as &#8220;startling increases in UFOs.&#8221;

 

[FoolKiller]

This article, unfortunately lacking video, offers support for UFO's as an electromagnetic plasma phenomenon.

Please, connect the dots for me.

 

[Dotini]

Please, connect the dots for me.

I've been trying to do that since post #94, page 5.

 

[FoolKiller]

I've been trying to do that since post #94, page 5.

I see a report discussing lights seen over the disaster areas and you saying it supports your plasma theory.

How so?

 

[Dotini]

I see a report discussing lights seen over the disaster areas and you saying it supports your plasma theory.

How so?

Plasma glows. It is historically associated with fault areas and volcanoes, not to mention tornadoes, hurricanes and lightning storms. Glowing lights are routinely sighted immediately preceding earthquakes.

You should read my posts concerning the plasma balls studied at the Yakima Indian Reservation, near Mt St. Helens and Mt. Adams, where you will glean additional details.

 

[FoolKiller]

Plasma glows. It is historically associated with fault areas and volcanoes, not to mention tornadoes, hurricanes and lightning storms. Glowing lights are routinely sighted immediately preceding earthquakes.

Sorry, I didn't immediately see unidentified glowing lights and think it must be plasma. It is very often the last thing I think of, if I ever do.

It is likely due to the fact that I am a big fan of Occam's Razor. Considering I saw reports of the US military being kept away from the nuclear power plant and using spy planes today (They were around the US Navy ships too right?) that is where my first thought went.