Aliens

[baldgye]

Please reman calm, polite and respectful, and I will continue to work with you. Thank you.

Firstly, I never claimed anything I stated as fact. Secondly, I qualified the use of the term "belief" in post #2151 above. Above all, the UFO question is a great mystery. After decades of denial and obfuscation, the US government has recently acknowledged the UFO phenomena as a reality, worth taxpayer money to study, but has offered no explanation. Finally, I do not feel a need to "believe", but I do feel a need to understand and explain what is going on. I, my family, and a whole bunch of other people, all encountered a spectacular manifestation of UFOs exhibiting bizarre shapeshifting characteristics near a US Navy submarine base (and my fishing cabin) back in the mid-1960's. I've been curious about the phenomena ever since.

I am not the only one interested in the phenomena. Many Americans are interested. However, here in this forum, there are only a very few. It's easy to get led astray, make absurd sounding claims and be labelled a nut. That's the price I pay for being open about my experience and my curiosity.

I was agitated, rude and/or disrespectful?
But (and I guess I must stress, I'm not being rude or disrespectful... I'm only curious because you seem well read on this subject and the post I quoted seemed to be a fairly 'bold') you didn't answer my question?


It's cool that you've experienced some strange unexplained things, but why specifically did you say you believed in what sounds like a god like creature/entity? What lead you to this conclusion?


I've read a bit about the US Government's reports on UFO's with some of the information that was released. All they seemed to conclude was that they didn't know what had happened in many cases due to lack of evidence, in others it was fairly mundane explanations.

 

[Dotini]

It's cool that you've experienced some strange unexplained things, but why specifically did you say you believed in what sounds like a god like creature/entity? What lead you to this conclusion?

In my personal experience(s), I had the instinctive gut feeling that I was in the presence of a higher intelligence. Not necessarily a being/creature/entity, but at least a discarnate intelligence or consciousness. Since then, I have read well over 1000 books on the subject. The best are by Jacques Vallee. My reading has led me to the hypothesis - not the conclusion - that over the millennia, various religious experiences and religions may have had their origin in encounters with the phenomena. Since then, investigation by researchers has indicated that UFO encounters can have an affect upon human consciousness as well as physiology. Not all of these affects are positive.

If I fail to adequately answer any question, please try again in different words.

Going back to basics for a moment, ~95% of all UFO sightings have a perfectly prosaic explanation. My foregoing remarks address only the unexplained residuum. The recent Nimitz "Tic-Tac" case is a good example of unexplained. For two weeks UFOs teased a high-tech fleet including an aircraft carrier, guided missile cruiser, AWACS aircraft and fighter jets.
http://mysteriousuniverse.org/2018/05/navy-ships-stalked-for-days-by-ufos/

 

[baldgye]

In my personal experience(s), I had the instinctive gut feeling that I was in the presence of a higher intelligence. Not necessarily a being/creature/entity, but at least a discarnate intelligence or consciousness. Since then, I have read well over 1000 books on the subject. The best are by Jacques Vallee. My reading has led me to the hypothesis - not the conclusion - that over the millennia, various religious experiences and religions may have had their origin in encounters with the phenomena. Since then, investigation by researchers has indicated that UFO encounters can have an affect upon human consciousness as well as physiology. Not all of these affects are positive.

If I fail to adequately answer any question, please try again in different words.

Fair enough, but there is no need to be so condescending.

I assumed you where referring to the unknown cases in your post. But as with that link and many I've seen in this thread, and indeed with so many UFO reports or sightings there isn't all that much to go off.
They seem akin to ghost sightings/stories.

 

[Dotini]

Fair enough, but there is no need to be so condescending.

Sorry, no offense was intended. Communication is a two-way street, and sometimes I fall short. I am very pleased to have had this opportunity to converse with you. Your questions, at least the ones I understood, were very good. I regret leaving any impression that I was condescending, as I so seldom have the opportunity for such an extended exchange.

Edit: The phenomena is very elusive, evasive. In the Nimitz case, we have multiple radar operators aboard multiple ships and AWACS aircraft, multiple pilots aboard multiple fighters all observing the same UFO over a two week period. And at the end of the day holding an empty paper bag. This is not an easy subject to deal with. But IMHO, it is an important one.

 

[baldgye]

Sorry, no offense was intended. Communication is a two-way street, and sometimes I fall short. I am very pleased to have had this opportunity to converse with you. Your questions, at least the ones I understood, were very good. I regret leaving any impression that I was condescending, as I so seldom have the opportunity for such an extended exchange.

Yeah I'm happy to chat. UFO's are, by their nature interesting and mysterious. I updated my post tho!


btw, your reading/ideas about what UFO's could possible be are very close to the Secret History of Twin Peaks, I book I LOVE and is surprisingly well researched

 

[Dotini]

Yeah I'm happy to chat. UFO's are, by their nature interesting and mysterious. I updated my post tho!


btw, your reading/ideas about what UFO's could possible be are very close to the Secret History of Twin Peaks, I book I LOVE and is surprisingly well researched

In my mountain climbing years, I spent a lot of time in that Twin Peaks cafe, eating those pies.

 

[baldgye]

Actually @Dotini in one of the links you posted (on the last page the NYT interview), the guy being interviewed said that all the reports the FBI had done on UFOs was publicly accessible, do you know if those reports are available online to read?

 

[Dotini]

Actually @Dotini in one of the links you posted (on the last page the NYT interview), the guy being interviewed said that all the reports the FBI had done on UFOs was publicly accessible, do you know if those reports are available online to read?

Try this:
https://vault.fbi.gov/UFO

and these...
https://vault.fbi.gov/Roswell UFO
https://vault.fbi.gov/Animal Mutilation
https://vault.fbi.gov/Majestic 12
https://vault.fbi.gov/National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena (NICAP)
https://vault.fbi.gov/Project Blue Book (UFO)
https://vault.fbi.gov/hottel_guy

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

So, wouldn't it be more accurate to say that you don't know what UFO's are? Rather than just making random stuff up?

I don't mean to be rude or anything, just seems a bit needless

It's not random there are actually well know physicist that talk about this stuff but seem to do so on a more scientific level than Dotini is either willing or capable of on here. I'm also surprised he didn't post up the links to their view points. It would have saved him time and avoided your confusion that then traversed ignorance to a rude like point. Even if it wasn't your goal...

 

[Dotini]

It's not random there are actually well know physicist that talk about this stuff but seem to do so on a more scientific level than Dotini is either willing or capable of on here. I'm also surprised he didn't post up the links to their view points. It would have saved him time and avoided your confusion that then traversed ignorance to a rude like point. Even if it wasn't your goal...

If you want links to a "well known physicist", please name him and I'll be happy to post links. There aren't many who write on this subject. Who? Most of my posts generate lots of yawns, but few questions. I can't guess in advance what you want to hear about.

 

[baldgye]

It would have saved him time and avoided your confusion that then traversed ignorance to a rude like point.

If a UFO is known, it’s not a UFO....

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

If you want links to a "well known physicist", please name him and I'll be happy to post links. There aren't many who write on this subject. Who? Most of my posts generate lots of yawns, but few questions. I can't guess in advance what you want to hear about.

I don't need links, you posted plenty about a month or so ago, in this thread. Seems your forgotten, I was simply trying to remind you that you should point the other user in that direction. Since he clearly doesn't understand your perspective and rather than try, instead jumps to belittling.

 

[Mr Tree]

I don't need links, you posted plenty about a month or so ago, in this thread. Seems your forgotten, I was simply trying to remind you that you should point the other user in that direction. Since he clearly doesn't understand your perspective and rather than try, instead jumps to belittling.



I don't need links, you posted plenty about a few pages back, in this thread. Seems your forgotten, I was simply trying to remind you that you should point the other user in that direction. Since he clearly doesn't understand your perspective and rather than try, instead jumps to belittling.

Inception double post

Sorry couldn't resist

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

If a UFO is known, it’s not a UFO....

Who said a UFO is known? I see people giving their ideas on the unidentified, kind of the point of a forum.

 

[TenEightyOne]

If a UFO is known, it’s not a UFO....

That's if you know what it actually is... an IFO? Or just an FO?

Knowing of a UFO doesn't make it identified beyond that point

 

[baldgye]

That's if you know what it actually is... an IFO? Or just an FO?

Knowing of a UFO doesn't make it identified beyond that point

True enough, I could have worded it a bit more robustly... but ehh I felt like me and @Dotini had a pretty good chat and there wasn’t the need for Corvette to be, Corvette...

 

[Dotini]

Very curiously, it is documented that when multiple witnesses see the same UFO, often they will have very different descriptions of what it is they thought they saw.

This begins to suggest that the phenomena goes well beyond being strictly physical, and crosses the boundary into the consciousness of the observer.

It is documented:
- A physicist in Missouri tracking UFOs in space with a telescope reports them changing direction in response to his observations. This was part of a multi-year funded study called Project Identification.

- F-18 pilots tracking a UFO near the aircraft carrier Nimitz reports the UFO changing course to arrive at the pilots intended rendezvous coordinates - before the pilots begin their maneuver.

- An Iranian F-4 Phantom pilot (a general, no less), reports loss of weapons systems control when he forms the thought to fire his missiles at a UFO. His flight controls remain operational. After he pulls off, weapons systems come back on.

Given our current civilization-level physiological, psychological and technical development, it may be hopeless to ever understand the phenomena. Does this mean it is not our business to ask questions or investigate? Should the entire issue be covered up, avoided and shunned because it may be insoluble or creepy goose-gnargh? Does the phenomena threaten our beliefs and cohesion as a society? Is there anything worthwhile or important to be learned by investigating such elusive, weird phenomena?

 

[Michael88]

I think what it means is we should further expand our capabilities to observe UFO's with unbiased video cameras.

 

[Rallywagon]

Very curiously, it is documented that when multiple witnesses see the same UFO, often they will have very different descriptions of what it is they thought they saw.

This begins to suggest that the phenomena goes well beyond being strictly physical, and crosses the boundary into the consciousness of the observer.

It is documented:
- A physicist in Missouri tracking UFOs in space with a telescope reports them changing direction in response to his observations. This was part of a multi-year funded study called Project Identification.

- F-18 pilots tracking a UFO near the aircraft carrier Nimitz reports the UFO changing course to arrive at the pilots intended rendezvous coordinates - before the pilots begin their maneuver.

- An Iranian F-4 Phantom pilot (a general, no less), reports loss of weapons systems control when he forms the thought to fire his missiles at a UFO. His flight controls remain operational. After he pulls off, weapons systems come back on.

Given our current civilization-level physiological, psychological and technical development, it may be hopeless to ever understand the phenomena. Does this mean it is not our business to ask questions or investigate? Should the entire issue be covered up, avoided and shunned because it may be insoluble or creepy goose-gnargh? Does the phenomena threaten our beliefs and cohesion as a society? Is there anything worthwhile or important to be learned by investigating such elusive, weird phenomena?

Or it suggests that people have different world views and opinions and are just plain not other people and as such have differing memories of what they saw... no need to jump to woowoo

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

True enough, I could have worded it a bit more robustly... but ehh I felt like me and @Dotini had a pretty good chat and there wasn’t the need for Corvette to be, Corvette...

Yeah I too thought it was "wonderful" how a guy trying to explain his perspective to you had to ask you a couple of times to chill out because you seemed to belittle what some may seem as strange. When again people like David Bohm have made strides to explain this in their lifetimes. Sorry if the forum allows me to actually jump in your conversation, if it was that personal take it to private. I've actually talked to Dotini at large on this subject over the years seem to have a good understanding of what he is at, despite not agreeing with him, but respecting his view.

Though if you want to explain what me being me is, be free to do so. Since clearly you don't like me putting you to task.

Or it suggests that people have different world views and opinions and are just plain not other people and as such have differing memories of what they saw... no need to jump to woowoo

And to expand on this, this is why people have a hard time taking the view points seriously. He takes a situation and kind of goes with it when he probably shouldn't and just leave it in a realm of "what if".

 

[baldgye]

Yeah I too thought it was "wonderful" how a guy trying to explain his perspective to you had to ask you a couple of times to chill out because you seemed to belittle what some may seem as strange.

Except that was a miscommunication... that we resolved... ourselves...

You being you is you picking up on something and needlessly drawing it out. There wasn’t an issue, there never was an issue. I asked someone a question on something they posted and got an answer... the difficulty with text only conversation is it’s hard to read inflection.. But we ended our chat on good terms and I got a bunch of links to read up on.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Except that was a miscommunication... that we resolved... ourselves...

You being you is you picking up on something and needlessly drawing it out. There wasn’t an issue, there never was an issue. I asked someone a question on something they posted and got an answer... the difficulty with text only conversation is it’s hard to read inflection.. But we ended our chat on good terms and I got a bunch of links to read up on.

Well that's good then. I read what you supposedly ended on since I was the one that gave insight on to what Dotini was probably going to answer with, you seemed short with him at times. And with bizarre subjects such as this it's sometimes best to just wait about and not be short, and then others wont have issues either.

 

[Dotini]

This is one of the toughest of all subjects to openly deal with. Only about 10% of the human population ever get to witness the puzzling phenomena. Once you've experienced it, you know in your bones something very, very strange is going on. For those who have not experienced it, it makes a lot of sense to remain deeply skeptical, even derisive, since it is such a poor fit for current materialistic science and culture.

 

[baldgye]

This is one of the toughest of all subjects to openly deal with. Only about 10% of the human population ever get to witness the puzzling phenomena. Once you've experienced it, you know in your bones something very, very strange is going on on. For those who have not experienced it, it makes a lot of sense to remain deeply skeptical, even derisive, since it is such a poor fit for current materialistic science and culture.

Agreed.

For someone like me, it’s kind of like the Vikings and lightning. They didn’t understand the science and so they said it was caused by gods.

I imagine there is reasonable science behind what is going on and it’s probably very dull... but I agree, the fact people aren’t willing to really talk about it, only creates barriers and it really sucks that a lot of the science conducted was done in secret.

 

[Dotini]

Agreed.

For someone like me, it’s kind of like the Vikings and lightning. They didn’t understand the science and so they said it was caused by gods.

I imagine there is reasonable science behind what is going on and it’s probably very dull... but I agree, the fact people aren’t willing to really talk about it, only creates barriers and it really sucks that a lot of the science conducted was done in secret.

Good insights!
One of the things we know for a certainty is that the US government has been aware of and studying the phenomena since the mid '40's. They have also closely monitored the civilians who begin to coalesce around the phenomena. When I attended a few conferences and meetings during the 80's, it was conceded that about 50% of the best known and published "ufologists" were retired CIA, FBI, AFOSI and State Department careerists. The government has not covered up the phenomena, but has very slowly dribbled, leaked and disclosed a parade of of truths, lies, and half-truths. The government & TTSA has acknowledged it has at least 30 calibrated gun camera videos yet to release, and up-close non-fuzzy imagery which will remain classified. I believe the entire subject must remain marginalized and controlled because of the potential destabilizing effects on a human population of 7.5 billion which is evolving in a cultural if not genetic sense at a dizzying pace.

 

[baldgye]

Good insights!
One of the things we know for a certainty is that the US government has been aware of and studying the phenomena since the mid '40's. They have also closely monitored the civilians who begin to coalesce around the phenomena. When I attended a few conferences and meetings during the 80's, it was conceded that about 50% of the best known and published "ufologists" were retired CIA, FBI, AFOSI and State Department careerists. The government has not covered up the phenomena, but has very slowly dribbled, leaked and disclosed a parade of of truths, lies, and half-truths. The government & TTSA has acknowledged it has at least 30 calibrated gun camera videos yet to release, and up-close non-fuzzy imagery which will remain classified. I believe the entire subject must remain marginalized and controlled because of the potential destabilizing effects on a human population of 7.5 billion which is evolving in a cultural if not genetic sense at a dizzying pace.

I don’t agree. I think that the more the subject is open for discussion and scrutiny the better understood and educated people can be. Science is peer-view, that’s kind of the point. By not allowing that to happen or by narrowing the number of peers that can review it, you only hinder the science.

The wonder of science is being able to understand seemingly strange and odd things, but then being utterly intrigued by the unexplained and mysterious. UFO’s fit into that.

I think it’s a shame the US Government is so paranoid they won’t release the information they have. The slow drip of information doesn't really help and the holding back of information only furthers conspiracies.

 

[Dotini]

I don’t agree. I think that the more the subject is open for discussion and scrutiny the better understood and educated people can be. Science is peer-view, that’s kind of the point. By not allowing that to happen or by narrowing the number of peers that can review it, you only hinder the science.

The wonder of science is being able to understand seemingly strange and odd things, but then being utterly intrigued by the unexplained and mysterious. UFO’s fit into that.

I think it’s a shame the US Government is so paranoid they won’t release the information they have. The slow drip of information doesn't really help and the holding back of information only furthers conspiracies.

I would in principle like to agree. But I worry that human culture at large, beyond the elites, might not deal well with open discussion and scrutiny of unknown and highly elusive phenomena of inscrutable purpose. Caution and skepticism are justified by realistic concerns for social order and control.

 

[baldgye]

I would in principle like to agree. But I worry that human culture at large, beyond the elites, might not deal well with open discussion and scrutiny of unknown and highly elusive phenomena of inscrutable purpose. Caution and skepticism are justified by realistic concerns for social order and control.

Yeah maybe.
But I think the biggest problem science has is that it comes across as all knowning, the allure of religion and faith is ‘not-knowing’ and maybe such a hugely popular and public phenomenon being actively investigated by scientists due to being totally unknown, or not understood could help enlighten more people in the scientific process?

I’m not sure haha

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

This is one of the toughest of all subjects to openly deal with. Only about 10% of the human population ever get to witness the puzzling phenomena. Once you've experienced it, you know in your bones something very, very strange is going on. For those who have not experienced it, it makes a lot of sense to remain deeply skeptical, even derisive, since it is such a poor fit for current materialistic science and culture.

Skepticism is one thing, but to openly mock or come close is another. I'm not all too religious and see myself more agnostic than anything but that doesn't mean I don't have tolerance for various views no matter how strange.

I think the same could be said for this subject which is why at times I try to ignore much of what is said from those who have a tough time or seemingly unwillingness to try and understand the various theories. Similar to how for instance Colbert easily refuted what a well known public Astro Physicist said on his show, and made him reevaulte what he was saying.

My issues is that the science communities view point on this topic is quite charged, and easy to argue for or against, so when normal members of the public who are skeptical do it, it becomes far more questionable even.

 

[Rallywagon]

I think that there is a whole lot of speculation coming from a quite failable species. I believe there are unexplained phenomena that happen all the time. I also think that there are also a large number of own phenomina that many people are either unaware of, or mistake for something else. Are UFOs real, in once sense or another sure. Governement cover up? Ehhh, maybe. Some sort of mind control nonsense? Probably not. People are fallible, the equipment we make as well. People have pride, ego, and terrible, even manipulatable memories.
Without concrete, verifiable evidence, without those supposed high res pictures and video, we can speculate and assume. Thus the skepticism. And to be honest, at least half or more of the population have no problem believing in made up super natural nonsense. At this point i dont think humanity will fall into post apocalyptic chaos to find out we arent alone.