Alternative Fuels Discussion Thread

Diesel might be a good transition fuel as we move towards electric cars. I read somewhere that the analogy is that diesel engines now are around where gas engines were in the 80's in terms of the tech in them. I'd love to see a boom in diesel tech, it's already getting good. My mom's Golf makes 140hp and 200+ lb/ft of torque from a 1.4L engine. Getting on the throttle at a stoplight is downright hilarious.

It gets even more ludicrious with the bigger diesel engines. Dad has a Touareg with the 3.0L V6 diesel, and the torque is absurd. 400 lb/ft of torque from 1700rpms, it's similarly hilarious at a stoplight, and even funnier at the pump.

I hope diesel advances in North America to the point where it's reasonably priced relative to gas engines, right now you can't get diesel except for a massive truck or a German car. I'd love to see more manufacturers roll out diesels in their Corollas and Civics.
 
Saw a local feature last year on a carbon-fiber diesel twin. Diamond I think. Fascinating plane. Drool-worthy, actually.

About time diesel made it into the air...

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The diesel in the new Grand Cherokee is sweet. But diesels don't need to be big to be good.

We're getting our hands on the new Chevrolet Spin by next month. 1.3 liter diesel.

1.3. And that's in a seven-seater. Can't wait to see how it goes... if it goes. :lol:
 
Diesel isn't a viable alternative in the short term.

You get about 10 gallons of diesel from a barrel of crude (42 gallons), while you get 19 gallons of auto grade gasoline.
 
Probably depends on what oil you've got. There are different weights of crude.

And refinery output has always been biased to what the market wants... so there's some flexibility there.
 
Diesel might be a good transition fuel as we move towards electric cars. I read somewhere that the analogy is that diesel engines now are around where gas engines were in the 80's in terms of the tech in them. I'd love to see a boom in diesel tech, it's already getting good.

Hmm. That's probably selling diesels a little short, or overstating their potential. Current diesels, technology-wise, are easily on par with current petrols.

Mid- to long-term, I see two problems with diesels in cars.

1) They're going to get very expensive. Several automakers in Europe - where diesels are most popular - are dropping diesels from their smaller cars as it's just not worth the trade-off any more. They were already a little more expensive to make but tighter emissions regulations mean they're costing a fortune to build to modern standards. That cost has to be passed on to the consumer, and in a small car, even one that does say 80 mpg, it just isn't worth it - since a small petrol car can do 65 mpg and cost $2,000 less per car to build.

2) As diesel becomes ever more important in goods transport, particularly in huge markets like the U.S, Russia, China, India etc, it's going to put a bit of a squeeze on the market for the fuel. I've heard rumours (and I stress rumours, as in "I heard it, haven't corroborated it, and have no sources to call upon") that in as little as 15-20 years time the price of diesel is going to rise much more steeply than that of petrol, and may even be rationed.

I'm a bit "meh" on diesels anyway (for cars at least - the diesel aircraft Keef mentioned above seem pretty cool), from both a petrolhead and an environmental standpoint.

On the former, I've never driven a diesel that sounded as good as a petrol and few are particularly responsive to throttle inputs. Some of this is down to modern throttle mapping which makes diesels feel punchy at about a third throttle but then they rarely continue that punch when you really put your foot down. Even the fast ones I've driven are like this - yet in the equivalent petrol, the harder you go the better they get.

Then of course there are all the added complications the average diesel has - high-pressure fuel rails, urea injection (in some), particulate filters, dual-mass flywheels... a good ol' Mercedes mechanical injection diesel from the 80s might go on forever, but some of the modern ones worry me from a longevity standpoint.

On the latter, they simply aren't as clean as petrols. And I don't just mean CO2*, but more noticeable stuff like particulate matter and oxides of nitrogen - responsible for asthma, heart disease, smog, those sort of things. I live in a country where diesels are unfortunately very popular, and I don't like breathing that crap in, frankly.



*CO2 is an odd one with diesels. Diesel has a higher energy content than petrol, so produces more CO2 per unit of volume. But they tend to be more economical, so overall CO2 is lower on a window sticker. But a 40 mpg petrol produces less CO2 than a 40 mpg diesel.
 
niky
Probably depends on what oil you've got. There are different weights of crude.

And refinery output has always been biased to what the market wants... so there's some flexibility there.
That's certainly true to some extent, but with growing economies it's unlikely the total demand will decrease, it will just be the balance between the two. And that balance is still I fluenced by chemistry.
 
The one nice thing about diesel is the enticing possibility of biodiesel for less headache than ethanol... but with increasing environmental concerns, diesels are rapidly becoming much more complicated than gasoline engines, even with both relying on direct injection and turbocharging.

I sure as hell don't want to get stuck with the DPF/DI/VGT/DMF/whatever bill when one of these new diesels breaks down. The hope is that if regulations stay stable for long enough and if demand stays high, the price tag on these technologies will lower to the point where a direct injection system problem will be as easy to fix as an EFI problem is today. Buy the part cheap, swap it in. Plug-and-play. (Some of these piezo-injector systems need software calibration every time you change injectors. Which is bizarre, as it wouldn't add significantly to the cost of those stupid-expensive injectors to have their calibration data recorded digitally on the parts themselves)
 
I forgot about biodiesel. I'd quite like to see a movement to biofuels, but not at the expense of the more important stuff, like growing crops for food.

I think for biofuel to be viable it has to be a development of one of the fringe technologies, like using waste or algae. From a humanitarian standpoint fuel shouldn't come at the expense of food. Although it does actually work okay economically, since producers of corn get craploads of money whatever people eventually do with it.
 
Biodiesel has a small following in the US, as resources to make it can be found in a greasy barrel behind any restaurant. Some of our farming operations make their own fuel from their own waste, or at least compliment it. You can tell when a truck is running it because it smells like french fries.
 
My vote for the future is on algae-grown diesel. If they can get the costs to come down I think that's a realistic way to go. 👍
 
bmw-i3-drive-images-1211-655x436.jpg


BMW i3 will go on sale for $41,000 - €35,000 - £26,000 ...
http://www.bmwblog.com/2013/07/22/bmw-i3-u-s-pricing-41350-34950-in-germany/

So, how does that fit with expectations? Round these parts that's somewhere between a high spec 1 series, or a low spec 3 series... not sure about the US since they get less engine options in the first place... would you pay 3 series money for a BMW that wasn't a three series?
 
It's about mid-spec 3-Series money in the U.S... until you deduct federal and local incentives, when it drops below base-spec 3-Series money. In California where incentives are highest that'll be all the excuse people need to buy one.

In the UK, the ~£26k is less than I was expecting, though that is after our own £5k incentive. But still, cheaper than a Chevy Volt. And given the technology and badge, that'll be mighty tempting for some people. I think many people weren't expecting to see much change from £40k in the UK for it.

Makes me wonder whether BMW is selling this thing at a loss. It's a carbon fibre chassi'd electric small car costing barely more than a high-end Nissan Leaf. There has to be a catch somewhere, and I'd be very surprised if that catch isn't BMW making a loss on each one to draw people in.
 
If it's a full CF chassis, that's definitely at a huge loss. Good luck to them, though.

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RE: Biodiesel. On a lark, I once did the start of a study on making biodiesel out of peanuts. Not just because the first diesel ran on peanut oil, but the root crop is very hardy, takes little care and has decent yield. You could grow peanuts anywhere. If our entire agricultural production were given over to growing beer and barchow, our fuel problem would likely solve itself.

Then we'd have to tackle that epidemic of liver and kidney disease...
 
My vote for the future is on algae-grown diesel. If they can get the costs to come down I think that's a realistic way to go. 👍
Costs? What costs? I've got a pool in my backyard just waiting to be full of algae. :lol:
 
Costs? What costs? I've got a pool in my backyard just waiting to be full of algae. :lol:

While you jest, I'm fairly sure they're doing exactly that in some of the warmer states - big algae pools. Needs plenty of sun to work effectively, but the initial outlay is pretty low if you already have the land. While it's more complex than digging a pool and letting algae form, it's not much more complex :lol:
 
bmw-i3-drive-images-1211-655x436.jpg


BMW i3 will go on sale for $41,000 - €35,000 - £26,000 ...
http://www.bmwblog.com/2013/07/22/bmw-i3-u-s-pricing-41350-34950-in-germany/

So, how does that fit with expectations? Round these parts that's somewhere between a high spec 1 series, or a low spec 3 series... not sure about the US since they get less engine options in the first place... would you pay 3 series money for a BMW that wasn't a three series?

That has to be one of the most disgusting looking cars ever. Looks like a scrunched-up Rover trying to be a BMW.

Maybe with the camo off it'll look better, but I'm thinking not much.
 
I guess they had to make it a distinctive style so it didn't blend in with the rest of the lineup. I don't think it looks particularly nice, but it's not horrible. The tech is pretty incredible for the price these things will go for.
 
Perhaps "one of the most disgusting looking cars ever" was a bit harsh, but my "scrunched-up Rover trying to be a BMW" comment still stands. As for distincting styling, I actually find "LOOK AT ME, I'M A MOTHER EARTH HERO!" styling cues to be annoying, and as for tech, I don't really care. Electrogadgetronic "upgrades" in cars are annoying at best.
 
It's a fully electric car with an entirely carbon fibre chassis. That's what people mean about the tech in this car. Can anyone talk about anything without you spouting crap about how GPS and heated seats are ruining the automobile?
 
Perhaps "one of the most disgusting looking cars ever" was a bit harsh, but my "scrunched-up Rover trying to be a BMW" comment still stands. As for distincting styling, I actually find "LOOK AT ME, I'M A MOTHER EARTH HERO!" styling cues to be annoying, and as for tech, I don't really care. Electrogadgetronic "upgrades" in cars are annoying at best.

Looks like an aerodynamically styled little hatch to me. Whatever you think it says about saving the Earth is purely what you've decided to attach to it. The tech is pretty much the whole point of the car as well. Actually, the tech is entirely the point of any electric car.
 
The Dutch court has decided that a network of charging stations on the highways will not be controlled by the major oil companies.

26 different oil companies started a case to give them the monopoly over the charging stations because "they own those rights", but the court has struck that silly idea down and said that they only have the rights to the fossil fuel business.
 
The Dutch court has decided that a network of charging stations on the highways will not be controlled by the major oil companies.

26 different oil companies started a case to give them the monopoly over the charging stations because "they own those rights", but the court has struck that silly idea down and said that they only have the rights to the fossil fuel business.

Ah, interesting - I covered the legal battle a while back but hadn't checked up on the results.

Seem to recall the oil companies were bothered because it meant putting charging points at service stations and they wouldn't see any of the benefits of it on "their" land. They were worried new shops might also spring up beside them and make for too much competition...
 
I really like to see new stations popping up, instead of placing them at regular fuel stations. Show the oil companies that it is on. 👍
 
I don't really know the specifics of this case, but there is a point there... if the EV Charging stations get to run tax free and in the service forecourts, and the gas station operators were not offered the same, it IS unfair competition.

If the station operators simply chose not to take advantage... then no foul.
 
I don't really know the specifics of this case, but there is a point there... if the EV Charging stations get to run tax free and in the service forecourts, and the gas station operators were not offered the same, it IS unfair competition.

If the station operators simply chose not to take advantage... then no foul.
 
I think that sums up one of the other big obstacles to Alternative fuels --- Oil companies.
Less the companies and more the special treatment afforded them by governments. Everybody is quick to blame businesses when businesses only grab opportunities available to them, especially low risk opportunities such as government incentives. It's human nature and nothing unique to organizations or businesses.
 
If I understood the case correctly, don't shoot me for this, I only heard it on the news, the regular stations basically said that electricity is a fuel, and therefor they should have first bid on the chargers. But as I said, the judge and possibly the government explained that the old agreements only apply to fossil fuel. And if I am correct this is done by a private operation, not so much a government crusade.

I will try and find some more on this case. But for now, we'll hopefully see a major rise in electric car sales, and a price drop for the cars themself.
 
As an all-new operation, all takers should have equal opportunity to bid on it, whether they be oil retailers or not.

It's easy to equate gas stations with oil companies, but most of these guys (if the franchise structure is the same as here) are businessmen who operate a retail business redistributing goods they buy from the oil firms. And, as retailers, their profit margin isn't as huge as people might imagine. They only make a profit because they sell in bulk.

They know their business model isn't going to last forever. Downturns in demand mean more losses for them than for other retailers, who make more margin on their products. I don't begrudge them trying to get a foothold in this new market niche, which might help ensure their continued operation in the decades to come.
 

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