Am I Becoming Racist? (rant)

[Danoff]

I was watching a U2 concert yesterday trying to ignore Bono as he went on his soap box about world hunger and how it's my duty to give my earnings to someone else because they're hungry blah blah. At one point he was singing and he grabbed someone out of the audience to come dance with him on stage. She was black. And my first thought was "Did he pick her because she's black?"

I was attending graduation at a major university that I know practices racial discrimination in admissions. I watched the black students crossing the stage and wondered how many of them displaced higher qualified white people to get where they are. I knew at least some of them did, and I had a strong reaction. I was very angry at the black students who did nothing to me personally because I couldn't help but think that better qualified applicants were displaced.

The speaker at the graduation ceremony was black. I happen to know who she is and I'm a big supporter of her career, but I couldn't help but wonder if she was chosen to speak because of her skin color.

It's in the back of my mind constantly now. Skin color is something that I pay attention to, especially black skin, which has a negative connotation in my mind - it makes me question whether they've earned whatever position they have. I didn't use to be this way. About 10 years ago I went to an almost completely white school in an almost completely white (but poorish) community. There was one black kid, and he was a good guy. I got along with him well and never really thought about how he was the only black kid. I never noticed his skin color. I had a few black friends in college and never thought anything about it because I knew them personally and knew they were qualified.

I work with a few black people, and I don't notice their skin color anymore either - because I know them personally. I know they're qualified and I'm pretty sure they weren't picked because of their skin color. But I have to admit that with at least one of them I wondered when I first met them if it was a factor in their hiring.

I also have a few personal examples of meeting unqualified black people who I'm certain were the beneficiaries of racial discrimination. I'll won't go into those at this point.

I think the end result is that I feel like black people need to prove themselves to me, whereas white people I assume are qualified. Isn't that the way it was 50 years ago?

How did I end up this way? Affirmative action. When I know that black people sometimes get picked for their skin color and not their qualifications it undermines ALL of their credibility in my mind - because I don't know which ones are the result of discrimination. Affirmative action is undermining the goal of racial equality at an alarming rate - even within my own mind. It's a handicap for all black people, not just the ones who have been the beneficiaries of racial discrimination - because we don't know which ones they are. All we know is their skin color.

So what do you think? Am I becoming a racist? I not as sure as I used to be about the answer to that question.

 

[Pako]

Anyone who judges people by their racial origins is a racist. Wikipedia would probably have a better definition than that, but yeah.

Why do people have to 'prove' anything to you?

Does it matter if 'you' think someone is more qualified or not? It's at the sole discretion of the employer to hire whom ever they want. There is more to qualifications then just book smarts or technical skills. It's the employer that has to live with the performance of their hired employees. So I ask again, why do you care? Were you personally discriminated against in a job situation? If so, were you able to find another job? If not, did you really want to work for a company that hires based on what color your skin is?

[edited] Sorry if I came off like I'm attacking you. I appreciate your honesty in your post. Sorry if you took offense in anyway, it wasn't meant to be offensive.

 

[Danoff]

Anyone who judges people by their racial origins is a racist. Wikipedia would probably have a better definition than that, but yeah.

That's why I created this thread. Because I think I'm starting to fit the profile.

Why do people have to 'prove' anything to you?

Because I can't assume they are where they are based on merit.

Does it matter if 'you' think someone is more qualified or not?

Yup.

It's at the sole discretion of the employer to hire whom ever they want.

Yup.

There is more to qualifications then just book smarts or technical skills.

Like skin color?

It's the employer that has to live with the performance of their hired employees. So I ask again, why do you care?

Because I don't like to work for racists. I don't, thankfully, but I have to keep an eye out.

Were you personally discriminated against in a job situation?

Not personally, but a relative was descriminate by an organization that was funded by my relative's tax dollars.

If so, were you able to find another job?

Yes, but not as good.

If not, did you really want to work for a company that hires based on what color your skin is?

No, which is why I'm always keeping an eye out for affirmative action. But I'm not sure racism against white people is a fatal flaw in an employer (yet).

 

[Pako]

Fear is at the core of your 'new' feelings. This isn't any different from the 1950's. What are you afraid of and are your fears realistic?

 

[Danoff]

Fear is at the core of your 'new' feelings. This isn't any different from the 1950's. What are you afraid of and are your fears realistic?

No I don't think it is. I'm not afraid of affirmative action because fundamentally I know this country runs on results, and unqualified people can't sustain that.

My feelings stem from observed injustice. I'm angry at those who benefited from, and those who performed, racial discrimination. But that anger is starting to be my first (NOT LAST) reaction to skin color.

 

[Pako]

But anger is a secondary emotion to fear.

 

[Danoff]

But anger is a secondary emotion to fear.

I don't agree. Anger can be and often is independent of fear.

 

[Pako]

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=anger,+the+secondary+emotion&btnG=Google+Search

Google disagrees. It's basic psychology.

But I won't argue with you. You definitely have your own opinion on the subject.

 

[Danoff]

Google disagrees. It's basic psychology.

But I won't argue with you. You definitely have your own opinion on the subject.

Google says it's a secondary emotion, but not necessarily to fear. I can tell you for certain that I do not fear black people.

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

I have to agree with Pako. I believe you are slighly racist. I have grown up with black people and I can honestly say I have never experienced any of the feelings you mentioned in your post. Never. I really dont think bad about anyone like that. One of my best friends is black.He is also Heathers brother in law. I do know many racist people and I hear them all the time when I play games online. You seem to be open minded and intelligent and from your posts I don't see where you are a racist hater. You just have a different impression of black people.
Do you have these feelings towards any other races or just black people?
As long as the "N" word doesnt come to mind when you see black people then you will be fine. If that comes to mind then you are definetly a racist. I HATE when people say that word.

 

[Carl.]

Remove affirmative action and all you've done is shifting back the problem to where it was, because there will be just as much discrimination.

You could be asking yourself exactly the same question, but this time on the ones who failed instead of those you succeeded. You wouldn't know if they failed because of the color of their skin, or their lack of skills for the job. On the, um, "plus" side, employers could discriminate as they wish though... and you can easily ignore the ones who failed since it's something that cannot affect your success. If anything, it would make sure the balance stays in favor of white people.

In the past I've realized that the company I was working for wouldn't even consider hiring a black guy, that just wouldn't fit with some people that held key positions. This still happens everywhere despites the laws against it, especially in smaller companies. When people see a young white guy in a BMW, that's because he has rich parents. When they see a young black guy in the same car, that's because he's a drug dealer.

You raise valid issues caused by affirmative action. My take is that someone will always have to pay for other people being racist pricks. Without affirmative action, that person will always be black (or any other commonly discriminated race). I don't know if you are racist, but you just don't seem to care about that, but you do care when the process is reversed on white people.

 

[Danoff]

I have to agree with Pako. I believe you are slighly racist. I have grown up with black people and I can honestly say I have never experienced any of the feelings you mentioned in your post. Never. I really dont think bad about anyone like that. One of my best friends is black.He is also Heathers brother in law. I do know many racist people and I hear them all the time when I play games online. You seem to be open minded and intelligent and from your posts I don't see where you are a racist hater. You just have a different impression of black people.
Do you have these feelings towards any other races or just black people?

Pretty much just black people because they're the major beneficiaries of racial discrimination. If affirmative action favored asians or white people, I'd feel that way about them instead.

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

I edited my post with another comment at the end. About the N word.

 

[Danoff]

Remove affirmative action and all you've done is shifting back the problem to where it was, because there will be just as much discrimination.

You could be asking yourself exactly the same question, but this time on the ones who failed instead of those you succeeded. You wouldn't know if they failed because of the color of their skin, or their lack of skills for the job.

Let me clarify. I wouldn't know if they failed because they were discriminated against, or because of lack of skills. But how is that different from now? I suppose two wrongs make a right in this instance?

Affirmative action only hurts the situation.

 

[Danoff]

As long as the "N" word doesnt come to mind when you see black people then you will be fine. If that comes to mind then you are definetly a racist. I HATE when people say that word.

Of course not. But I suppose this means that you HATE a lot of black racists, because black people use that word more than anyone else.

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

Of course not. But I suppose this means that you HATE a lot of black racists.

Yes I hate people that are ignorant enough to use the "N" word against black people. When I hear that word come out of peoples mouth I just completely ignore anything they have to say.
I am glad to hear that you dont use that word. I think you will be just fine.

 

[Danoff]

Yes I hate people that are ignorant enough to use the "N" word against black people.

Let me be specific... even when black people use it?

 

[Poverty]

Remove affirmative action and all you've done is shifting back the problem to where it was, because there will be just as much discrimination.

You could be asking yourself exactly the same question, but this time on the ones who failed instead of those you succeeded. You wouldn't know if they failed because of the color of their skin, or their lack of skills for the job. On the, um, "plus" side, employers could discriminate as they wish though... and you can easily ignore the ones who failed since it's something that cannot affect your success. If anything, it would make sure the balance stays in favor of white people.

In the past I've realized that the company I was working for wouldn't even consider hiring a black guy, that just wouldn't fit with some people that held key positions. This still happens everywhere despites the laws against it, especially in smaller companies. When people see a young white guy in a BMW, that's because he has rich parents. When they see a young black guy in the same car, that's because he's a drug dealer.

You raise valid issues caused by affirmative action. My take is that someone will always have to pay for other people being racist pricks. Without affirmative action, that person will always be black (or any other commonly discriminated race). I don't know if you are racist, but you just don't seem to care about that, but you do care when the process is reversed on white people.

Good posts. I myself going by how things work in the outskirts of London is that black males in particular along with muslims will not be able to get a job at any other place than McDonalds, or cleaning etc. This is young males with no experience and only gcse's for qualifications which evryone has to take.

However if the black male has academic qualifications, I would be inclined to belive that he would have a easier time getting the job than a equivelant white person, because he is a rare(thinking of a better word than rare) However I think it will help a qualified black male getting into the job, his skin colour would also hinder him getting right to the top of his chosen career.

 

[Famine]

Yes I hate people that are ignorant enough to use the "N" word against black people. When I hear that word come out of peoples mouth I just completely ignore anything they have to say.
I am glad to hear that you dont use that word. I think you will be just fine.

danoff was referring to the adoption by "black people" of the N-word as a familiar greeting between themselves.


Is danoff racist?

Does he hate people from other ethnic backgrounds for the sole reason that they are from other ethnic backgrounds? No.
Does he discriminate against people from other ethnic backgrounds for the sole reason that they are from other ethnic backgrounds? No.

Now for the $6 million question...

Does "Affirmative Action" discriminate against people from certain ethnic backgrounds for the sole reason that they are from certain ethnic backgrounds? Yes.

Affirmative Action is racism, and by artificially preventing people with aptitude from advancement because of their ethnic origin, it breeds a pseudo-racist sentiment such as the one danoff is experiencing. Affirmative Action - which is designed to redress some perceived balance - is both racism and perpetuating civil racism. It's supposed to help "non-whites" (or "non-males") but instead breeds dislike against the people it's supposed to be helping.

The way to deal with past racism is to get over it - not make more racism to be the next generation's past racism. Imagine pro-white-male Affirmative Action in 80 years' time...

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

Let me be specific... even when black people use it?

Now you are just being silly. There are proper ways to say it and improper ways to say it. It also depends on how its delivered and how the person accepts the delivery.
You are smart enough to know exactly what I mean. There is a good and bad way to use it. If used the good way its acceptable.
Same way with any race. There are proper terms to use and improper offensive terms to use. Like I said it all depends on how it is delivered and accepted.

 

[Carl.]

Let me clarify. I wouldn't know if they failed because they were discriminated against, or because of lack of skills. But how is that different from now? I suppose two wrongs make a right in this instance?

Affirmative action only hurts the situation.

It doesn't make the situation worst, it was already bad to begin with.

Again, all it does is to make sure that the only ones dealing with the consequences of racism aren't only black people. Is it actually solving the problem? I don't think so.

What would you propose instead? What do you think could solve that issue?

 

[Danoff]

Without affirmative action, that person will always be black (or any other commonly discriminated race). I don't know if you are racist, but you just don't seem to care about that, but you do care when the process is reversed on white people.

I don't see racism against black people, only in favor of. In my entire life, I can only point to maybe 1 or 2 situations where I have seen black people get discriminated against. I can point to almost daily examples of discrimination against white people.

But what I care about more than anything is the fact that racism against white people is starting to make me wonder about the merits of others simply based on skin color. Perhaps you're asking me why I don't wonder about the merits of white people - why I don't ask myself if there was a more qualified black person who was denied the position because of his skin color. My answer is that I don't see racism happen against black people often enough to have that concern.

 

[Danoff]

It doesn't make the situation worst, it was already bad to begin with.

How can you say that when my view of black people is becoming tainted as a result. If affirmative action didn't exist, I wouldn't give a rat's ass about skin color. Since it exists I do. How is that not making the problem worse?

What would you propose instead? What do you think could solve that issue?

Equality. (at least from publicly funded institutions)

 

[Carl.]

However if the black male has academic qualifications, I would be inclined to belive that he would have a easier time getting the job than a equivelant white person, because he is a rare(thinking of a better word than rare) However I think it will help a qualified black male getting into the job, his skin colour would also hinder him getting right to the top of his chosen career.

It depends. With large corporation that are more likely to come under scrutiny, or companies that are dealing with the public, I agree. For smaller companies, that is often the opposite. In my case, what I've seen concerned any position, from shop workers to management, accounting or engineering.

Even with larger corporation, what I've noticed is that black people with any degree in IT is more likely to end up for quite a while doing call centers / tech support than white people. It's different in other domains though, such as heath care or science.

 

[Poverty]

I wouldnt say that Danoff is racist. Hes just ultra right-winged.

Think about this though. Affirmative action was introduced because people were discrimanted by the colour of theyre skin. But for all we know those people that got hired, were the best people for the job, as just because someone has better or more qualifications than the next man doesnt mean that he would be better for the job. The person who is hiring would also take into consideration communication skills etc and even without affirmative action, the employer might pick a black person over a white person because of skin colour because the business mainly consists of white people and would like a bit of diversity.

I think affirmative action is this day and age is redundant, as if the company is truly racist they wont have people from a ethnic background regardless.

 

[Carl.]

How can you say that when my view of black people is becoming tainted as a result. If affirmative action didn't exist, I wouldn't give a rat's ass about skin color. Since it exists I do. How is that not making the problem worse?

Removing it doesn't make the problem worse for you. It does for them though. If you ask me what is worse between you not giving a rat's ass about them being discriminated against because of their skin color, or you not being able to tell if they truly deserve their current position, I don't know, really.

Equality. (at least from publicly funded institutions)

To achieve that, it would require people to stop discrimination against others because they are racist. How do you do that?

I think affirmative action is this day and age is redundant, as if the company is truly racist they wont have people from a ethnic background regardless.

For small companies, yes. But at least now larger corporations and governement agencies cannot get away with it.

 

[Danoff]

Removing it doesn't make the problem worse for you. It does for them though.

Removing it makes the problem better for everyone. Because it means they won't have to prove themselves to people like me who wonder if they got a "helping hand", and people like me won't be discriminated against.

Keeping it makes the problem worse for people like my relative who was discriminated against because of white skin.

To achieve that, it would require people to stop discrimination against others because they are racist. How do you do that?

Start by eliminating state sponsored, legislated racism. And cracking down on public institutions that practice racism.

 

[Pako]

Google says it's a secondary emotion, but not necessarily to fear. I can tell you for certain that I do not fear black people.

So I ask you again, what 'DO' you fear? If it's not black people you fear than what is it? You think that affirmative action will give all the good jobs to less qualified people while leaving better qualified people on the street? You think it isn't fair for the employer to hire this person over that person? Maybe in your experiences, you don't have ALL the information or maybe you do. What was the purpose of Affirmative Action? Does it accomplish what it was set out to do? Are there side affects to Affirmative action, i.e. your examples of the White Man being discriminated against. Are the side effects you experience a lessor evil of not having Affirmative Action? I'm pretty sure you would have a different opinion if you lived as a working class black man in the 1950's.

Maybe when we are all one color or can grow up enough socially where outward appearances don't matter, we can get rid of affirmative action. What do you think? Comments like:

When I know that black people sometimes get picked for their skin color and not their qualifications it undermines ALL of their credibility in my mind - because I don't know which ones are the result of discrimination.

are disturbing. These are opinions and ideas that you choose to feel. Don't put the blame on anyone or anything except yourself for that.

 

[Carl.]

Removing it makes the problem better for everyone. Because it means they won't have to prove themselves to people like me who wonder if they got a "helping hand", and people like me won't be discriminated against.

Keeping it makes the problem worse for people like my relative who was discriminated against because of white skin.

Removing it makes the problem better only if you ignore what was happening in the first place. Perhaps you don't witness it very often because you are working within a government agency, but I've worked in 3 major Canadian cities for private small / medium businesses, and in almost every cases I have witnessed discrimination against black people. Will it be better for you and your relatives? Certainly. For black people? Absolutely not.

Start by eliminating state sponsored, legislated racism. And cracking down on public institutions that practice racism.

Before addressing the "state sponsored, legislated racism", I'd like to know how would you crack down on public institutions that practice racism... let's say we're in the 1950s, and that there's no affirmative action yet. Explain how you would achieve that.

 

[Solid Lifters]

I saw the same concert yesterday, and saw when Bozo picked out the black chic and danced with her on the stage. I asked a question, too.

"Why did he pic a fat ugly chic to dance with?"

Am I racist?

If I am, I'm fine with it.