Am I Becoming Racist? (rant)

[Swift]

It's not exactly a negative judgement - it's a doubt about the merits of their position. That's not really a judgement as much as it is a reservation. It's justified because affirmative action puts some black people in places where they simply wouldn't be if merit, and not skin color, were the determining factor.

What other conclusion can I draw Swift?

They have a friend on the inside, it was their "turn" for promotion, the person doing the hiring was in a hurry to find someone quickly. There are lots of reasons people get jobs and others don't.

It was a student panel on race relations at the university. My wife was stupid enough to volunteer for the panel despite the fact that her skin color was white. That was a big mistake. She should have known that when there's a panel about race at a university, white people cannot participate.

Sick, twisted and evil. It's deplorable what happened to your wife as she is very much a part of the "race relations" of this country. I'm extremeley sorry and actually quite upset to hear that as a similiar thing happened to my fiancee where she was denied even the POTENTIAL for a job because she WASN'T black.

 

[Danoff]

They have a friend on the inside, it was their "turn" for promotion, the person doing the hiring was in a hurry to find someone quickly. There are lots of reasons people get jobs and others don't.

Not what I'm getting at. When I know that some black people are in their positions not because of their merits, but because of their skin color. How can I not wonder about any one of them?

If you knew that black people were discriminated against regularly (which perhaps you do think, I don't know), how could you not look at ALL white people and wonder which ones were the beneficiaries of racial discrimination?

 

[Swift]

Not what I'm getting at. When I know that some black people are in their positions not because of their merits, but because of their skin color. How can I not wonder about any one of them?

If you knew that black people were discriminated against regularly (which perhaps you do think, I don't know), how could you not look at ALL white people and wonder which ones were the beneficiaries of racial discrimination?

Because that would be like saying all people that have ever taken unemployment want a socialist society. You simply can't blame or judge an entire people for an action that they themselves didn't even institute.

 

[Danoff]

Because that would be like saying all people that have ever taken unemployment want a socialist society. You simply can't blame or judge an entire people for an action that they themselves didn't even institute.

I can blame them for potentially not being qualified, at least not as qualified as some other applications.

Hypothetical situation. You're put into a group of 3 white people and 2 black people and asked to work a particular project which falls into your area of expertise. You're told that one of the white people that you're working with is not good at this particular job. How can you not wonder about all 3? You know that that knowledge will cast a doubt on the abilities of all 3 until they demonstrate their relative capability and the imposter is revealed. Now pretend you weren't told how many of the white people were incompetent. Now you'll wonder about all of them, even if you figure out that one of them is obviously incompetent, you'll wait until all three have proven their worth before deciding whether they're there for their skin color or their merit.


Edit: It's a racist conclusion in this hypothetical. To assume that the black people are competent and reserve judgement about the white people until you have some sort of evidence to suggest that they're competent. But that's the only possible outcome given that you've received information based on race.

 

[Sage]

Dan – I do, of course, see where you’re coming from (as I hate AA just as much as you), but I think you should look at it this way:

Wipe the slate clean, think of everyone being hired on their merits. When you see someone like the person Duke described (incompetent, but still being held on to), then you might suspect the race card being played. But only when the incompetence and indecision on management’s part shows up.

When you work with a thoroughly competent black person, you don’t assume he was pandered to, right? In a corporate environment, you have to assume everybody is competent until proven false; thus, you have to believe every black person is just as competent until a person gives you reason to believe otherwise.

Keep this in mind: Many people (white included, of course) are hired not because they’re competent, but because they have connections. Now, you know this. However, because you know this, do you ever think to yourself “Man, I bet none of these people should actually be here – they probably just know the right people”? Of course not – you only think of that once somebody has proven to be incompetent, then it’s fully justifiable to wonder about that. Same with AA, the way I see it.

When you wonder if all blacks were hired just because of their race, then you also have to wonder if everybody was hired based on connections, or if all Asians were hired just because they’re perceived as being smart, or if everybody lied their way through their interviews, or if someone got hired just because they were a veteran, etc. etc. etc. Slippery slope.

 

[Swift]

Dan, anyone can not be qualified for any job. Regardless of skin color. It happens ALL the time. someone has a nephew or cousin or brother and they get hired just "because". Didn't have anything to do with their color.

 

[Sage]

Hah, I finally treed someone for once in my life!

 

[Swift]

DOH!

 

[Dave A]

The problem is simply knowing that theres things like AA going on, they raise questions in your head, it's like the example I mentioned earlier, if two people go for a job in the council and one is gay and the other is straight, he gay guy will get the job. This is wrong, it isn't the gay guy's fault, but it's wrong, it can create doubts in people's minds, but I think Sage has put it in a good way, to assume people have got thier position based on thier merits until/unless you see them working below par. Yes a lot of people are hired because of their own merits, a lot of people who are very competent in interviews get hired for important jobs and screw up because they can do the interview, but not the job. It is a fact of life, but when the thing giving people these positions is a government policy it is somewhat different in a persons mindset than someone getting a job because their mate is a manager there which in itself is an isolated case, etc. Regarding danoff being a racist, yes he is, but imo I think everyone is to a degree. I don't think anyone is 100% non-racist, it's to the degree that you are racist that is important, and danoff's reply in post number 45, that he would feel pretty much the same way if it was his own race getting the benefit of AA at this point in time tells me that he is not a racist in the commonly used meaning of being a racist. He's not a hater of other races, he meerley feels that certain people are getting treated better than others, which is not a racist thought if it's the truth.

 

[Danoff]

Wipe the slate clean, think of everyone being hired on their merits. When you see someone like the person Duke described (incompetent, but still being held on to), then you might suspect the race card being played. But only when the incompetence and indecision on management’s part shows up.

Dan, anyone can not be qualified for any job. Regardless of skin color. It happens ALL the time. someone has a nephew or cousin or brother and they get hired just "because". Didn't have anything to do with their color.

At what point do you stop assuming everyone is qualified? What statistics flip that assumption? In the hypothetical I posted earlier I said 1 out of 3 white people was given racial preferences. I find it perfectly reasonable given that assumption to call into question all three. If 33% of all black people were given racial preference I'd think it was perfectly reasonable to wonder about all of them. So it's a matter of how many people are the beneficiaries of affirmative action (in any number of ways) and where your threshold is.

When you're sitting in a class at a university and you know ahead of time that ~10% of the class is a beneficiary of affirmative action, and you count up the percentage of black people in the class and it works out to 12%, it's hard not to assume guilty until proven innocent.

 

[Dave A]

It's definitely not hard to take that view, and given thoes statistics it would be very easy to make thoes assumptions, and I think the vast majority of people would likely including myself, but it's not the right thing to do. I don't think that makes someone a proper racist though, it's meerely making note of unfair treatment, yes it is racist to a degree, but not to the degre where you start to become a bad person because of it.

Im concious this may not be worded as best as possible which may cause complications in any replies but for the life of me I can't think anything else right now, so if I don't seem too clear or I seem like this posts isn't going in hand with my previous posts just bear that in mind.

 

[Kylehnat]

Danoff, if you base your judgement of an entire race on one government policy, then YEP!!! You are a racist.

Yup. That's the conclusion I've come to as well. I am racist. And justifiably so.

In the strictist possible definition of racism, sure, that's racist. However, in this situation, I think it's not a case of racism so much as a case of something-ism. If Affirmative Action weren't about race, but something else, danoff would have problems with that something else. If AA promoted people with brown hair, he'd be doubtful of the merits of his brown-haired co-workers. If AA promoted short people, he'd be doubtful of the 5'1" people in his office.

Does anyone against affirmative action has an alternative other than "let's ditch the whole thing and let racial discrimination magically sort itself out"?

There will always be racism and bigotry. Affirmative Action does nothing to change this, nor will it ever. However, the impact of racism in the country is not so severe that we need AA. Like I said, it's the product of a different time. The generations of Americans who were raised to hate the blacks, Japanese, Russians, etc, are slowly going away. The people now making hiring decisions are a younger breed, who were raised after racism left the mainstream. No, getting rid of AA will not magically sort racism out, but it is doing a fine job of reversing its original purpose.

 

[F1GTR]

Hah, I finally treed someone for once in my life!

You can have all the qualifications you want, but in the end, the other person may have an advantage over you (when applying for a job). And most likely it isn't skin colour.

Dan, I think the sole reason that you think black people have preference over others is because true racism is still common, and that there are many black people around the world (and the fact it wasn't too long ago when racism was severely looked down upon), which in turn makes the racism card to be easily played and get the desired effect. Many businesses don't want this kind of 'publicity' so they'll simply hire to avoid, or prevent that from happening.

 

[MrktMkr1986]

In the words of Yung Joc:

It's Goin' Down!!!!​

You do not take a person who for years has been hobbled by chains and liberate him, bring him up to the starting line of a race and then say, 'you're free to compete with all the others,' and still justly believe that you have been completely fair. Thus it is not enough just to open the gates of opportunity. All our citizens must have the ability to walk through those gates…

Worst post I've ever seen from you. How can you bend your mind around to think that his kind of racism is ok?

Affirmative action is not racism.

You say, it's retribution for past injustices , but what it actually is is discrimination against people who have done NOTHING WRONG based on skin color. That's out-and-out racism.

Faulty logic. Germany paid large sums of money to the state of Israel after World War II and continued to pay damages long after... here are some quotes:

The Reparations Agreement between Israel and West Germany was signed in 1952. According to the Agreement, West Germany was to pay Israel for the slave labor and persecution of Jews during the Holocaust, and to compensate for Jewish property that was robbed by the Nazis.

in the 1990s, Jews began making claims for property stolen in Eastern Europe. Various groups also began investigating what happened to money deposited in Swiss banks by Jews outside of Switzerland who were later murdered in the Holocaust, and what happened to money deposited by various Nazis in Swiss banks. In addition, individual companies (many of them based in Germany) began to be pressured by survivor groups to compensate former forced laborers .... Among them are Deutsche Bank, Siemens, BMW, Volkswagen, Ford, and Opel. In response, early in 1999, the German government proclaimed the establishment of a fund with monies from these companies to help needy Holocaust survivors. A similar fund was set up by the Swiss, as was a Hungarian fund for compensation of Holocaust victims and their heirs. At the close of the 1990s, discussions of compensation by insurance companies that had insured Jews before the war and who were later murdered by the Nazis were held. These companies include Alliance, Axa, Generali, Zurich Financial Services Group, Winterhur, and Baloise Insurance Group. With the help of information about Holocaust victims made available by Yad Vashem, an international commission under former US Secretary of State, Lawrence Eagleburger, has been trying to uncover the names of those who had been insured and died in the Holocaust.The World Jewish Restitution Organization was created to organize these efforts. On behalf of US citizens, the US Foreign Claims Settlement Commission reached agreements with the German government in 1998 and 1999 to compensate Holocaust victims who immigrated to the US after thewar.

By your logic, the German government is discriminating against Germans and the Jews shouldn't have been compensated.

My wife was publicly verbally attacked because of her skin (white) and hair color (blonde). She was in tears.

So was I when found out that [classified] sold food to "third-world countries" (and you damn well know what I mean by "third world") after it had been recalled (sent back to the company due to contamination). Life's a b**** isn't it?

The ****ing nerve you have to sit there and tell me it's a myth when I LIVE it! My sister was discriminated against by a public institution because of her skin color - her spot was given away to a less qualified person because they were black and she was heart-broken. It's simple math!!

How do you know this person was less qualified?

Here's a little story about my experience with similar situations. When I was in high school, I found out that a lot of the "straight-A" students were doing hard drugs. I was shocked. I kept asking myself, "I don't drink/do drugs or any of that stuff, why don't I don't get straight-As?!"

Then it hit me...

It has nothing to do with what they do with their lives (no matter how destructive). The fact of the matter is, they put in more effort than I did! Same thing here. Your sister was not denied a position because of the color of her skin... she was denied because the public institution found a person that was better qualified. You're just upset because this person just happened to be black... that's racism.

100 spots are open. If you take the top 100 qualified applicants and find that you're short on black people, the only way to increase the number of black people is bump qualified applicants .

If you had bothered to read my previous post, you would have seen this:

Any institution that tries but ultimately fails to find qualified minorities is not punished.

I will admit that this quote is terse... allow me to elaborate a bit. If a good faith effort was made to hire qualified minorities and the institution finds that they are short on black people, no legal penalty is incurred. If the company fails, the goals (not "quotas") are simply reset the next year -- and the next -- and the next, if necessary.

PLEASE READ THIS PART CAREFULLY: If a situation has occured where applicants are bumped in favor of hiring minorities, it is the fault of people who criticize Affirmative Action. Allow me to explain: opponents of Affirmative Action have the tendency (whether intentional or not) to spread propaganda and misinformation in regard to the policy. This may have inadvertantly caused someone to actually believe that there are strict quotas involved, when indeed there are none. If that's the case, they may have acted in a manner similar to the situation Dan referred to.

To that, all I have to say is: if you had accepted Affirmative Action as a good thing, you wouldn't have had to deal with situations like that. You have only yourselves to blame for spreading misinformation and propaganda.

Give yourselves a pat on the back for a job well done!

When that ^^ happens, when less qualified people get preference because of skin color, there is no way anyone can tell me that a new kind of racism - a racism that undermines the credibility of every black person because a few of them haven't made it on their own merits - is bred and completely justified . It sucks for the ones that didn't need a helping hand, but there is no way to know who has made it because of their skin color and who has not.

To this I have to say:

The claim that Affirmative Action forces companies to hire less qualified minorities (and undermines the credibility of every black person) reflects and reinforces a cruel stereotype (a false one at that) about people like me, since the people who benefit from AA are, by definition, qualified.

Now if after all that you still have a hard time accepting Affirmative Action as a good thing, you have some serious soul-searching to do.

So how about it? Still want to support the justification of racism against you?

You're the only one making justifications here, pal. Justifications for your racist attitude towards people like myself.

 

[Danoff]

Affirmative action is not racism.

Just discrimination based on skin color. Got it.

Faulty logic. Germany paid large sums of money to the state of Israel after World War II and continued to pay damages long after... here are some quotes:

OH! Brilliant. Well that's exactly the same thing isn't it. Not to mention that the reparations were being paid by the country that actually did the crime.

Life's a b**** isn't it?

Oh yes. I suppose I should just suck it up and deal with racism then huh. You know, you'd have made a great slave owner before the civil war. Here's how I figure you'd sound:

"Hey all you n*ggers picking my cotton. I, Brian, your master, have something to say to you. Life's a b**** isn't it?"

How do you know this person was less qualified?

Because I saw the test scores, GPAs, etc. I'm not an idiot.

Your sister was not denied a position because of the color of her skin... she was denied because the public institution found a person that was better qualified. You're just upset because this person just happened to be black... that's racism.

You don't know what the **** you're talking about, and you're flirting with my ignore list (you'd be the first).

To that, all I have to say is: if you had accepted Affirmative Action as a good thing, you wouldn't have had to deal with situations like that. You have only yourselves to blame for spreading misinformation and propaganda.

Accept racism, discrimination based on skin color, as a good thing. HA! You're a huge hypocrite.

The claim that Affirmative Action forces companies to hire less qualified minorities (and undermines the credibility of every black person) reflects and reinforces a cruel stereotype (a false one at that) about people like me, since the people who benefit from AA are, by definition, qualified.

It's simple math Brian. Take the top 100 applications to a university. Not enough blacks? Bump some higher scoring white kids.

Now if after all that you still have a hard time accepting Affirmative Action as a good thing, you have some serious soul-searching to do.

You're far more racist than I am.

 

[Famine]

Affirmative action is not racism.

Just discrimination based on skin color. Got it.

This is the nub.

Even the "independant" and disinterested Wikidepia lumps Affirmative Action in with "Positive Discrimination" - though it fails to mention that it may be "positive", but it's still discrimination.

Affirmative Action is a policy which offers advantage to previously discriminated against groups at the expense of previously discriminated for groups, based solely on the physical characteristics of those groups. Sound familiar?

Affirmative Action IS racism (or sexism, or any other -ism you fancy). It focuses on physical characteristics at the expense of ability. Remember when it was the 1920s (well... no, you don't, but you know what I mean) and black people had no chance to explore their abilities because the policies of the time focussed on their physical characteristics (black) at the expense of their ability? That is still happening now - only because it's no longer against black people, or "Asian" people, or women, it goes unnoticed.

But guess what? In 80 years' time, white males are going to be underrepresented in certain positions and they'll have to start Affirmative Action for them - keeping black people and women out of (or at least disadvantaged for) certain jobs. Won't that be interesting?


You know what I think whenever I hear of "the first woman to..." and "the first black person in..." (let's take Danica Patrick as an example - the first woman to lead the Indy 500)? I think "Who cares?". I think "If that was me, would I really want people pointing out my skin colour, or where my genitals are sited, as if it's some miracle that a chick or black person could perform this feat? I'd just want to be a person doing a job, without people having to say that I'm a woman/black/disabled/short."


Affirmative Action is most certainly racism, and it perpetuates racism further.


It would be helpful if, at this point, people remembered that danoff - or anyone expressing a similar sentiment - does not feel like hanging the next black man he sees. It would also be helpful if you think for a minute about your own internal issues - can any black people on this board (and I don't know who you are because I don't care - you're people first and anything else second. Besides, this is the internet, the great leveller) honestly tell me they feel totally comfortable walking, on their own, past a group of 10+ white teenagers outside a liquor store?

 

[Dave A]

I couldn't have thought of a better response if I tried (and believe me, I did try ).

 

[LittleBahamut]

Reading all of these post just simply fired me up really good.

This is one of those topics I have always been arguing over in school and with few family members. Now I can get it on the net. 👍

Here we go..:

I am an asian guy and am proud to be asian. Why? We asians are also minorites that came here with nothing in our pockets and got treated poorly while we stayed. Did we really complain and whine about it? NO. We worked our way into your "white" system and earned ourselves the stereotype of being smart. We worked hard, study hard and proved it over and over again why we asians are the "Minority Models."

Now why is it that this AA stuff get many asians to complain about lowering the number of asians in University just so we can get black people in more and give them a chance?

Answer is...THEY WERE GIVEN A CHANCE! I find it so unfair how many asians have worked and studied so hard in school and to get declined by university just to get a lower qualifed black student. These black people were given a chance throughout elementary, middle, and high school to prove their worthiness of getting into university and they literally fell flat on the face while whites and asians step on the back of their head.

We asians worked so hard and so long for our own reputation and life. We simply WILL NOT, I repeat WILL NOT let under or lower qualified people take advantage over us by crying to the government of how unfair things are.

Most black people I have seen have always acted like they are handicap saying how asians are so smart and can easily get anything they want. Always talking about how they leave in the ghetto area and how it affected them. Well guess what? We asians did too and how the **** did we become successful? They just never learn the American system of success....

Racism will always be stuck on everyone's mind once in a while and will never EVER be gone. The only thing I can think of to correct this AA stuff is to get rid of it and play it fair.

Winner takes all and Losers go flip burgers.

This topic......mess my mind.

 

[keeno_uk]

been a lot of good view points in this thread I read them all and I have pretty much come up with my own conclusion I'm black and living in london we do have something like that affirmative action (I can't remember at the top of my head) but I agree that employers may feel pressured into employing someone from a ethnic minority or has a different sexual preference etc etc but I still think its firmly wrong to judge all of us as bad underqualified people just because these policies give us a chance I've worked in the public and private sector and all of my working enviroments have been a good mix of all races. I guess it must be worser in america the social divide that is most the time its "white" people live there the "black" people over there etc etc perhaps if all your communities actually intergrated rather stay in there own community common myths that go around about other races wouldnt exit

[edit] danoff cool off man stop taking peoples opinions to heart and stop bringing down the topic to personal matters when you talk about your wife and your sister you lose your credibility and makes everyone feels that your bein biased and ultimately racist

 

[MrktMkr1986]

I guess it must be worser in america the social divide that is most the time its "white" people live there the "black" people over there etc etc perhaps if all your communities actually intergrated rather stay in there own community common myths that go around about other races wouldnt exit

If only it were that simple. I live in a city that has faced this very issue.

http://www.brick-by-brick.com/about.html
http://www.brick-by-brick.com/timeline.html

I don't think anyone (on this board, I mean) can appreciate my position having never lived under these circumstances.

Just discrimination based on skin color. Got it.

Wrong... retribution.

Oh yes. I suppose I should just suck it up and deal with racism then huh. You know, you'd have made a great slave owner before the civil war. Here's how I figure you'd sound:

"Hey all you n*ggers picking my cotton. I, Brian, your master, have something to say to you. Life's a b**** isn't it?"

Why don't you just come out and tell everyone the truth about why you're here? You're not looking to discuss opinions. I know exactly what you're up to.

Because I saw the test scores, GPAs, etc. I'm not an idiot.

Never said you were... but test scores and GPAs aren't always an accurate indicator of someone's potential. Was there anything else that suggested this person was not qualified for the job?

Accept racism, discrimination based on skin color, as a good thing. HA! You're a huge hypocrite.

All affirmative action does is to ensure that employers/admissions officers conduct a fair search of qualified people. Like I said before, even if the institution is 100% >>lilly white<<, they still wouldn't face any penalty as long as they can prove that they honestly could not find an employee/student (minority) that met their criteria.

And there's nothing wrong with that since this is nothing more than retribution for past and continuing injustices.

It's simple math Brian. Take the top 100 applications to a university. Not enough blacks? Bump some higher scoring white kids.

You keep saying that over & over again. You remind of a paid "basher" on a financial message board. Keep repeating the same thing over and over again, enough people read it, panic & sell (or in this case believe it).

Your argument fails for one fundamental reason: Affirmative action does not force institutions to bump qualified people to hire unqualified people. If people are being bumped, it's the fault of the institution, not AA. The people responsible for hiring/admissions who do things like that are ignorant of affirmative action policy and its objectives. But that's only because they've been listening to people like you instead of doing their own research and discovering the truth.

On that basis, it's not Affirmative action that needs to be eliminated... it's the idiot behind the desk that listened to people like you.

You're far more racist than I am.

Try growing up in a segregated city... then get back to me about racism. Affirmative action is so lax it's not even funny. If you people think AA is this bad you should try living in South Africa. Don't even get me started on the BEE.

 

[keeno_uk]

If only it were that simple. I live in a city that has faced this very issue.

Tell me about it when I stayed in kissamee (can't spell it) florida I stayed wid my aunt in the black community and not to far away about 5 minutes drive was where all the white people lived and maybe in my opinion they might have been middle classed cause there houses were hench when were I was staying was nothing more than a bungalow (but social classes are another topic lol) but where I live the community is diverse and everyone pretty much live in the same kind of housing I will say that racism still exists in the UK but they dare not show it in the diverse community of major cities

 

[MrktMkr1986]

Tell me about it when I stayed in kissamee (can't spell it) florida I stayed wid my aunt in the black community and not to far away about 5 minutes drive was where all the white people lived

As you said below, that may have more to do with socioeconomic circumstances. In Yonkers, however, the segregation was intentional (city planning) and as a result, schools were de facto segregated.

and maybe in my opinion they might have been middle classed cause there houses were hench when were I was staying was nothing more than a bungalow (but social classes are another topic lol)

I hear you. That's not uncommon in the states.

but where I live the community is diverse and everyone pretty much live in the same kind of housing I will say that racism still exists in the UK but they dare not show it in the diverse community of major cities

That's nice to hear. In fact, if the stuff ever hits the fan I might just move there. There's a lot of potential in the AIM (London Stock Exchange).

 

[Famine]

Just discrimination based on skin color. Got it.

Wrong... retribution.

An eye for an eye, right? Only problem with that is that everyone ends up blind.

By what method is this "retribution" exacted? Discrimination based on physical characteristics? Gosh!


Out of interest, do you really think getting rid of racism (using this part as an example, though it could easily be sexism, or "disablism", or ageism, on any -ism) is best done by drawing attention to skin colour?

 

[keeno_uk]

That's nice to hear. In fact, if the stuff ever hits the fan I might just move there. There's a lot of potential in the AIM (London Stock Exchange).

I wouldnt know your chances of getting ur job in the states I read abit of ur profile and ur assist manager thats cool I reckon you could get a job in the uk easily definitly in a major city like london and you will be judged in ur merits here cause you would get more mixed aplicants from all races like I said I worked in both the public and private sector and my environment was mixed to be honest I don't know if I could work in a place where the workforce is mainly made up of white people or black or any other race especially in the public sector it wouldnt make up a decent representation of the population say for instance in london 1 in 3 people living in london is from an ethnic minority so you can see that being an ethnic minority in london pretty much makes u the majority if u put yourself with the chinese and indians etc. Basically I'm saying its probably easier to get a job in london than it is in new york because london is a multicultural evironment while newyork just has many cultures you see what I'm trying to get at here? maybe if danoff lived here his views wouldnt be so harsh on black people

 

[Dave A]

Keeno, could you just start typing your and you instead of ur and u, it's only two letters extra but it makes a world of difference when reading your posts. It doesn't matter where you go, there will always be a level of bias be it on a one to one level of in the community as a whole, no one treats everyone absolutely equal. Danoff to me doesn't seem like he's being harsh towards black people just towards affirmative action, if it was white's benefitting from it, he'd stiff feel the same way about affirmative action, he hasn't once hinted that he doesn't like black people or that he doesn't think they should have jobs, just that affirmative action raises questions in his head, nothing more than that. If you were to say you've never seen a guy walking down the street and thought "I bet he's..." your lying, simple as, all danoff has done is admitted cases where he does it and provided a basis for him thinking that way. Yes it's wrong, but no it isn't the epitome of evil, no it's not truely racist, yes everyone makes assumptions about people to varying degrees.

 

[keeno_uk]

he'd stiff feel the same way about affirmative action

First fix your spelling before you start on others I'm just used to typing like that from using msn messinger and txting. Anyway I'm just looking at what he is saying from my point of view if I worked in the same place as him and he looking over me like I gotta prove myself to him first and not my manager who hired me I think thats a bit odd. I just think you can't tarnish everyone cause of one policy he probably is right ya know there are people looking to take advantage of the situation and get into jobs where there know they are not qualified and when that happens yes I agree it does damage our credibility however there is probably twice as much black people who do have the qualifications to do the job but cause of danoff we are all scheming our way into work if he really wants to make changes in his own evironment perhaps gettin permoted to a position where he can hire and fire as many workers as he wants and make the decisions that decide the make up of his workforce

 

[Famine]

First fix your spelling before you start on others I'm just used to typing like that from using msn messinger and txting.

Mistyping is not against the AUP. Using "txtspk" contractions is.

The spelling portion of this debate stops now - but it's good to see you've taken it on board at the same time.


This next bit is both a good point AND important:

he probably is right ya know there are people looking to take advantage of the situation and get into jobs where there know they are not qualified and when that happens yes I agree it does damage our credibility

Now this is effectively what danoff said in the first place - though he's more against the legislation which can be exploited than those who exploit it.

The phrase "One bad apple spoils the whole barrel" applies here. Since the legislation exists to be exploited by the odd bad apple, it's hard for him to think the rest of the barrel isn't spoiled too. Let's face it, we all probably think something similar when we see fat rich white guys - is that racist?

however there is probably twice as much black people who do have the qualifications to do the job but cause of danoff we are all scheming our way into work if he really wants to make changes in his own evironment perhaps gettin permoted to a position where he can hire and fire as many workers as he wants and make the decisions that decide the make up of his workforce

danoff's workforce would be danoff's workforce. I suspect he wouldn't give half a damn what their skin colours, genders or sexual preferences were, if they could do the job - so its make-up would be irrelevant.

 

[Poverty]

This is somewhat of a tangent (but is it really?): I hear people whining (rappers and athletes mostly) about how cops single them out because they're a black man driving a white man's luxury sedan. Well guess what, folks: If you look and act like a gangbanger, it's not too much of a reach to assume that you obtained that S600 through illegal means. Likewise, if I saw an unshaven, tattered clothed white man (*cough* bum *cough*) driving a 750Li, I would be similarly suspicious. If you don't want people to assume that you stole that nice car, DON'T LOOK LIKE YOU STOLE THAT NICE CAR.

So your trying to tell me that its not constitutional racism? Baggy clothes etc is how many black men dress, regardless of theyre profession, and its wrong to assume someone is a criminal on the boundries of theyre dress sense. Even you have said that the likes of a S600 is a whitemans car. Even a well dressed black man is more likely to get pulled over because of his skin colour.

In your mind you have shown to think that If you dress like a average black man does, and drives a nice car he must automatically be a drug dealer.

Its like my friends who are 19 and drive drop top BMW's. They get pulled over alot, theyre not white, (ones greek the others bangladeshi). They dont dress like crimanals they just dress like a average Londoner. Often have we wondered if they were white if they would get pulled over as much, especially for my muslim friend.

People don't understand that though. The theory of affirmative action is a great one, much like communism. But we can't have perfect racism like we can't have perfect communism. People and employers are scared of affirmative action! They think to themselves "Gosh, that white guy is really qualified, I think we should hire him. But wait, I don't want people or the goverment to think that I didn't hire that less qualified black guy because he's black... I'm gonna hire the black guy."

It doesnt quite work like that. Its not as if a black man with no qualifications will get the nod over a whiteman with qualifictions. Both men will be similiarily qualified, and at the end the choice will be based not soley on academic qualities but also experience, team and communication skills.

 

[Dave A]

They dont dress like crimanals they just dress like a average Londoner.

Isn't that a bit like an oxymoron , only kidding. Your example is a good one, you see that all the time, it's so easy to see a younger lad in a Subaru and think "drug dealer", the bottom line is everyone does it about almost everyone they see weather they dwell on that thought or not, everyone jumps to conclusions about people based on varying circumstances. I see what danoff is doing asno different in nature to seeing a young man in an Impreza and assuming he might be a dealer.

 

[Poverty]

The ****ing nerve you have to sit there and tell me it's a myth when I LIVE it! My sister was discriminated against by a public institution because of her skin color - her spot was given away to a less qualified person because they were black and she was heart-broken. It's simple math!!

What type of job was it, and what did it require?

Yup. That's the conclusion I've come to as well. I am racist. And justifiably so.

I suggest a holiday to the carribean such as barbados, or bahamas to cure this, theyre lovely people.