Am I Becoming Racist? (rant)

[Pako]

Maybe Bono's significant other requires that he dance only with girls that meet that criteria. You know, sort of a No Compete clause.

 

[Kylehnat]

I agree with danoff and everyone else who thinks that Affirmative Action is backwards-racism (also known as racism). It is a relic of the past, when employers and such were discriminatory, and would pass up qualified Black/Chinese/Hispanic candidates and hire a retarded white person instead. Those days are gone, and now it's almost the exact opposite. Too many times I have seen a merit scholarship or job list that "women and minorities encouraged to apply", which translates into "pigment-challenged members of the pen15 club should go take a hike". This is not considered discriminatory, yet if it implicitly said "tan-skinned Italians need not apply", it would be racist and probably taken to court.

In case nobody has noticed, the majority of people in this country are white. Therefore, if you have a pool of 50 job candidates, and say that 40 are white and 10 are not, the laws of probability say that there is an 80% chance that the best candidate for the job is a member of the white group. This has nothing to do with racism, just the inherent makeup of our country. Likewise, if you were in Mexico, it is highly likely that the best candidate for the job is Mexican. That's not racism, it's statistics.

When people see a young white guy in a BMW, that's because he has rich parents. When they see a young black guy in the same car, that's because he's a drug dealer.

This is somewhat of a tangent (but is it really?): I hear people whining (rappers and athletes mostly) about how cops single them out because they're a black man driving a white man's luxury sedan. Well guess what, folks: If you look and act like a gangbanger, it's not too much of a reach to assume that you obtained that S600 through illegal means. Likewise, if I saw an unshaven, tattered clothed white man (*cough* bum *cough*) driving a 750Li, I would be similarly suspicious. If you don't want people to assume that you stole that nice car, DON'T LOOK LIKE YOU STOLE THAT NICE CAR.
[/tangent]

 

[Danoff]

So I ask you again, what 'DO' you fear? If it's not black people you fear than what is it?

My little rant here isn't motivated by fear. My anger isn't motivated by fear but observed injustice.

You think that affirmative action will give all the good jobs to less qualified people while leaving better qualified people on the street?

Like I said earlier, that won't happen in a country that runs on results.

You think it isn't fair for the employer to hire this person over that person?

Generic employer? Yes. State sponsored employer? No. But racism is ugly no matter who is doing it. The fact that it's tolerated in the name of equality sickens me.

What was the purpose of Affirmative Action?

To pick up a few votes?

Does it accomplish what it was set out to do?

Absolutely not. It only compounds the problem by increasing people's awareness of race (like me, and the reason I started this thread).

Are the side effects you experience a lessor evil of not having Affirmative Action?

No, the side effects are compounding the original problem - increasing racism, deepening the divide. Which is why I shared my personal experience. I wanted to explain how affirmative action is pushing someone like me, who normally would not care about race, into racism.

I'm pretty sure you would have a different opinion if you lived as a working class black man in the 1950's.

I'd like to think I'd be smart enough to realize that something like this only makes things worse.

These are opinions and ideas that you choose to feel. Don't put the blame on anyone or anything except yourself for that.

I don't feel my opinions or ideas, I think them. I feel emotions, and I don't choose to. My emotions are a natural response to tolerated injustice. If you watch an innocent man get executed do you choose to feel sadness and anger? No. It simply happens, because of the injustice you observed. The same thing happens to me when I see an unqualified person given preference over a more qualified person. Especially when the qualified person's money is paying for the ordeal.

 

[Event]

See this is exactly why I don't like Affirmative Action. It's designed to prevent racism, but it actually promotes it! It makes people begin to not like minorities because the same or less qualified minority will get the job instead of you because you're white. This will start racism all over again, as it has started to creep into danoff. We need to stop it quickly. People say it will go back to the way it was in the 50s, but it won't. That generation is old, grey, and dead. The new generations have grown up with affirmative action. Once we remove it, then people will start to treat whites and blacks equal, not go back to making them sit in the back of the bus. However, if we wait too long, then white people would have made us inferior, not because of other races, but because of ourselves! It's like a teeter-totter of doom, we need to get off fast and balance things out before we fall into the abyss.

 

[Pako]

See this is exactly why I don't like Affirmative Action. It's designed to prevent racism, but it actually promotes it! It makes people begin to not like minorities because the same or less qualified minority will get the job instead of you because you're white. This will start racism all over again, as it has started to creep into danoff. We need to stop it quickly. People say it will go back to the way it was in the 50s, but it won't. That generation is old, grey, and dead. The new generations have grown up with affirmative action. Once we remove it, then people will start to treat whites and blacks equal, not go back to making them sit in the back of the bus. However, if we wait too long, then white people would have made us inferior, not because of other races, but because of ourselves! It's like a teeter-totter of doom, we need to get off fast and balance things out before we fall into the abyss.

And this is the fear that turns into anger. It happens so fast that some people (danoff I suspect) that they don't see the fear part and only feel the anger.

What's the problem with Affirmative Action? Is it the fear of what might happen? The racism that danoff is expressing is of no fault but his own. He won't admit it, but it is a choice that he has made to allow his second hand experience to form an opinion in his mind that he can't trust any black person in a job because he now doubts EVERY black persons ability to be hired on merit because of Affirmative action. How could you prove that the majority was hired over the minority solely based on merit? You cant, unless you had a blind jury to review every hire/fire case with race, name, gender would not be disclosed. Then this person would have to remain hidden from sight because how would we know that this majority person is able to keep his job just because of merit and not because he's a good ole boy. There is no way you could honestly enforce it. Affirmative action guarantees that there is not discrimination against the minority within a specific demographic. It's naive to think that we no longer have racists and bigots in America. We can't trust our own Americans to make 'right' decisions. Maybe someday, but not now. Until we are ready, we have to use statistics to determine what a fair employee hire rate is. Fulling those stats with qualified people regardless if a more qualified person exists, being qualified is the key word here. If a person can complete items a-z in a respectable amount of time and with a respectable amount of accuracy then they are qualified.

 

[Kylehnat]

Affirmative action guarantees that there is not discrimination against the minority within a specific demographic. It's naive to think that we no longer have racists and bigots in America.

It's also naive to think that forcing these bigots to hire [insert minority here] just makes the problem magically disappear, and everyone becomes happy.

Affirmative Action is outdated, much like Social Security. Both programs were started to address a certain societal problem many moons ago. Today, both are only causing problems, not solving them.

Edit: And I don't think danoff is racist for feeling this way. "Racist" implies that one discriminates against an entire race, which danoff clearly does not. He has animosity towards certain individuals in his workplace, but it's no different than resenting "Steve" for getting a job just because his dad is the boss. See?

 

[Event]

Affirmative action guarantees that there is not discrimination against the minority within a specific demographic.

People don't understand that though. The theory of affirmative action is a great one, much like communism. But we can't have perfect racism like we can't have perfect communism. People and employers are scared of affirmative action! They think to themselves "Gosh, that white guy is really qualified, I think we should hire him. But wait, I don't want people or the goverment to think that I didn't hire that less qualified black guy because he's black... I'm gonna hire the black guy."

It shouldn't be that way but it is. I guess it stems from the fact that anyone can sue anyone at anytime for any reason, because the employers are scared that someone will sue because they think that the employer is racist. This is why affirmative action should be eliminated, because we aren't perfect. Perfect affirmative action means perfect equality, but human nature can not be perfect, no matter what. Affirmative action, like communism, will never be what it was intended to be, ever, because of human nature.

NOTE: I am only using "black guy" as an example, because that is what is popularized in the media and it's easier to type than "minoritiy person". I don't want to offend anyone in anyway. This discaimer is there because of current PC Volitleness in society today.

 

[Danoff]

And this is the fear that turns into anger. It happens so fast that some people (danoff I suspect) that they don't see the fear part and only feel the anger.

You didn't respond to my example about seeing someone innocent get killed. You get angry when you see injustice - it doesn't stem from fear.

The racism that danoff is expressing is of no fault but his own.

Well that's definitely not true. I wouldn't wonder about qualifications if affirmative action didn't exist. In short, if racism didn't happen, I wouldn't be resentful of it.

He won't admit it, but it is a choice that he has made to allow his second hand experience to form an opinion in his mind that he can't trust any black person in a job because he now doubts EVERY black persons ability to be hired on merit because of Affirmative action.

That's completely wrong. I now doubt the merit of EVERY black person's position. When some people get help, and you don't know which, you have to wonder about all of them. This is the natural conclusion of affirmative action. This is the ONLY conclusion from affirmative action.

It's naive to think that we no longer have racists and bigots in America.

But the solution isn't to create more of a reason to pay attention to skin color.

The theory of affirmative action is a great one, much like communism.

Both theories are piss-poor.

 

[magburner]

Hey, I'm a black guy, and Whilst I think what you've said makes me think that you maybe a rascist, you also said a lot that makes me think you are not. Prejudices of any kind are borne of ignorance, you are not ignorant of your mindset, and it takes a lot of courage to discuss your thoughts and feelings here. If you were an out-and-out racist, you wouldn't have the thoughts you have. Respect man. 👍

 

[Event]

Both theories are piss-poor.

In your opinion. Pure equality is difficult to grasp, because no society in human history has gotten even close to perfect equality. It would be a utopia. Too bad it's impossible.

 

[Danoff]

In your opinion. Pure equality is difficult to grasp, because no society in human history has gotten even close to perfect equality. It would be a utopia. Too bad it's impossible.

That's because pure equality doesn't exist. People are different, fundamentally. That's why communism is a piss-poor theory, it refuses to acknowledge human nature, and differences between people. Affirmative action is the opposite of pure equality, which is what makes it a piss-poor theory.

 

[Casio]

I have to agree with danoff. I guess I'm a racist too (raises hand).

Down in Australia, our high school final scores are done on a ranking system, where 99.95 is the highest and 0 is the lowest. People from Asia who have accelerated learning compared to our schools, have finished school in their country, then come down to Australia and do our final years of schooling in our country to get a high score because it's easier then in Asia.

Take my friend for example, he came to Australia 2 years ago from Japan, had pretty much completed school there, he says as soon as he finishes his university course he'll go back to Japan. The system makes it easier for him because he can take E.S.L (English as a Second Language) instead of English. English here makes up 50% of your entire score, and he speaks perfect English, but instead he does E.S.L which is pretty much spelling your name and it's ranked the same as normal english. He kills math and science because he's done it before.

Another example is a job I put an application in for, and my friend put one in at the same place a couple of days later. I didn't even get an interview, he got a job no questions asked. Why? Because he is Asian. That's it. The store as owned by Asians, so they want an Asian. Regardless of the fact that he had never had a job before, and I've had several. I have been trained in cash handling and have done Certificates in IT and Business. He had done none of the above.

Forgive the wording here, but it's situations like this that makes me see Asians as 'bad'. I know it's not the case, and plenty of my friends are from Asia or other ethnic backgrounds and I think they're all great. But racism will always exist everywhere, so you might as well live with it.

Hypothetically, if I went to another country as a job owner and was looking for employees. I probably would give the job to an Australian over a slightly more qualified someone else. Surely most of you would do the same?

 

[Danoff]

Hey, I'm a black guy, and Whilst I think what you've said makes me think that you maybe a rascist, you also said a lot that makes me think you are not. Prejudices of any kind are borne of ignorance, you are not ignorant of your mindset, and it takes a lot of courage to discuss your thoughts and feelings here. If you were an out-and-out racist, you wouldn't have the thoughts you have. Respect man. 👍

Thanks.

I think what it's really coming to is that affirmative action justifies some racism in my mind. Now, I know that sounds bad, but I think that's true. Without affirmative action, nobody would have any reason to think that someone got a job just because of their skin color. With it, the question is there - and so a bit of doubt surrounds black people until they show that they're competent. That cloud of doubt is racist, and ugly, and an inescapable consequence of affirmative action.

 

[Dave A]

I don't think a single person on the face of this planet is 100% non-racist, so in that context sure danoff is racist to a degree. The important things to ask are, does danoff hate black people? So far I see no reason to draw that conclusion, would danoff wish any harm on a black person? Again I see no reason to think that he would and does danoff draw a conclusion about almost every person if not every person he see's before or without ever speaking to or getting to know that person? The likely answer is yes, how deep a conclusion is irrelevent. If that's the case then danoff is no more racist than the average manwho say's he isn't racist, only it seems here that danoff has recognised that even non-racists can be (well they are) racist in certain ways.

Regarding danoffs comments about affirmative action it brings to mind our local councils here, they're out there promoting equal rights, but if two people apply for a job in the council and both seem equally suitable but one is gay, the person offering the jobs has to give it to the gay guy, because they don't want to be seen as discriminating against gays, so instead they're discriminating against straights as though that's all oaky. Now does that annoy me, yes it does, is that the only example of how screwed up the equal rights system (if you can even call it that) is, no. I don't however hate the people in thoes positions, I don't like how they got there but at the end of the day it's the people who put them there (this is ofcourse providing they don't actually deserve that position in the first place) that I get annoyed with, the peopel that make these stupid laws on the one had promoting equality and on the other hand blatantly discriminating against sets of people. Noe it's not the same thing, but similarities can be draw, and I do agree that affirmative action does creat a level of justifiability in questiong people who are given an advantage because of such action, it's not what I class as racist in the sense of what most people view a racist to be, what you need to do is ask youself that if it was people of your own race getting the same advantages as you see happening now, would you feel the same way. Probably not, but if it's not too far off then you have very little to worry about on the racism front.

 

[Danoff]

what you need to do is ask youself that if it was people of your own race getting the same advantages as you see happening now, would you feel the same way.

Definitely. 👍

And my wife does, occasionally, feel that way when discrimination favors women. If there were an affirmative action for white people I would be extremely against it. It would call into question my own merits. It would justify people questioning the merit of my acheivements solely on the basis of my skin color.

That's why I think black people should be the most violenetly against affirmative action. It hurts them more than it helps.

 

[MrktMkr1986]

I'm not going to directly respond to any of the previous posts.

First of all, quotas are illegal in the United States. While there have been cases where a judge orders strict quotas, it's only used to correct extreme examples of discrimination. Affirmative action normally sets reasonable goals (not "quotas" as if often referred to) based on the percentage of qualified minorities. Any institution that tries but ultimately fails to find qualified minorities is not punished.

Affirmative action is not preferential treatment. It does not mean that unqualified persons should be hired or promoted over other people

Affirmative Action is not "reverse discrimination", "racism" etc. It's compensation for past and continuing injustices. Again, affirmative action is not there for minorities because of who we are. It's because minorities have been exploited (to put it mildly). People are awarded compensatory damages all the time... affirmative action is just another example. A "class-action lawsuit", if you will, in which we won.

When the US was first founded, it was controlled by white males. This gave them the opportunity to make laws that benefitted themselves... slavery, denying women the right to vote etc. you get the idea. When slavery ended and women ended up with the right to vote, minorities gained rights... white males did not lose anything (that they hadn't gained unfairly). Well, it's the same thing with affirmative action. Just because we're gaining rights with affirmative action does not mean that you are losing rights.

Therefore, white males do not lose the right to be hired for a certain position or accepted into a certain college etc.. Qualified minorities gain the right.

In conclusion, the belief that qualified white people are denied jobs and access to education in favor of less-qualified minorities is a myth. The belief that affirmative action forces quotas on schools/businesses etc. is also a myth (except in extreme cases as I pointed out earlier).

Good night all, and I hope enough people read this post and change their mind about what it is they thought they knew about affirmative action. If not, I hope they'll at least question their beliefs about it.

Ouch... that took longer than I thought.

 

[SS69]

I kinda feel like this too sometimes. I used to complain because, well, i thought minorities did get breaks in getting into college. I believe mrktmkr that "whites" dont get denied to a lesser-qualified minority, but minorities are given slack. Although, ive never found myself questioning whether a successful black person deserves the position or not. I assume they have it because they earned it. I guess i like to think that people dont see skin color anymore. One thing i noticed today though was the "bums." I work in downtown Dallas and not a day goes by without at least one person asking me for change. What i noticed today, though, was that everytime i saw a black person wearing un "business" like clothes, i just assumed he would ask me for money. But then again this could just go back to statistics that pretty much every person that has asked me for money downtown was a black person weaing un "business" like clothes.

 

[ledhed]

I was watching a U2 concert yesterday trying to ignore Bono as he went on his soap box about world hunger and how it's my duty to give my earnings to someone else because they're hungry blah blah. At one point he was singing and he grabbed someone out of the audience to come dance with him on stage. She was black. And my first thought was "Did he pick her because she's black?"

I was attending graduation at a major university that I know practices racial discrimination in admissions. I watched the black students crossing the stage and wondered how many of them displaced higher qualified white people to get where they are. I knew at least some of them did, and I had a strong reaction. I was very angry at the black students who did nothing to me personally because I couldn't help but think that better qualified applicants were displaced.

The speaker at the graduation ceremony was black. I happen to know who she is and I'm a big supporter of her career, but I couldn't help but wonder if she was chosen to speak because of her skin color.

It's in the back of my mind constantly now. Skin color is something that I pay attention to, especially black skin, which has a negative connotation in my mind - it makes me question whether they've earned whatever position they have. I didn't use to be this way. About 10 years ago I went to an almost completely white school in an almost completely white (but poorish) community. There was one black kid, and he was a good guy. I got along with him well and never really thought about how he was the only black kid. I never noticed his skin color. I had a few black friends in college and never thought anything about it because I knew them personally and knew they were qualified.

I work with a few black people, and I don't notice their skin color anymore either - because I know them personally. I know they're qualified and I'm pretty sure they weren't picked because of their skin color. But I have to admit that with at least one of them I wondered when I first met them if it was a factor in their hiring.

I also have a few personal examples of meeting unqualified black people who I'm certain were the beneficiaries of racial discrimination. I'll won't go into those at this point.

I think the end result is that I feel like black people need to prove themselves to me, whereas white people I assume are qualified. Isn't that the way it was 50 years ago?

How did I end up this way? Affirmative action. When I know that black people sometimes get picked for their skin color and not their qualifications it undermines ALL of their credibility in my mind - because I don't know which ones are the result of discrimination. Affirmative action is undermining the goal of racial equality at an alarming rate - even within my own mind. It's a handicap for all black people, not just the ones who have been the beneficiaries of racial discrimination - because we don't know which ones they are. All we know is their skin color.

So what do you think? Am I becoming a racist? I not as sure as I used to be about the answer to that question.

To be honest I only pay attention to skin color anymore if I think it makes her HOT or NOT ... guys...meh couldnt care less .

Whats the point ?

 

[Perfect Balance]

For me, its kinda different. I appear as a rascist because of how the majority of black people around where I live act. That "thug, gangsta" additude. Over here, almost every black person I know fits into that category. So, because of that, it appears that I hate all black people. If they at least wore their clothes properly, I wouldn't think the way I do now.

It's because of most black people that I don't like most of them. But, there is the ones that are normal, and those are the ones that I'm fine with.

So, I don't really discriminate people because of their skin color, but when they fall into both categories, I guess it works out that way.

 

[a6m5]

I can see how very small numbers of white people would be shortchanged by Affirmative Action. I don't think it is a big deal though, I actually think it did used to make sense. Major chunk of black population has suffered in this country, and if you are saying "but that was their grandparents, black people today were unaffected", I think you are living in some sort of fantasy world.

Black people had very bad start in this country, and if the U.S. decided to give them a bit of jump start, I think it's totally justified. I think Brian's example of "class action lawsuit" was right on the money.

Having said all that, I tend to agree with the guys who are saying that Affirmative Action is outdated. I don't know this topic in detail though, so I could be wrong about that.

 

[Pako]

*snip*
Edit: And I don't think danoff is racist for feeling this way. "Racist" implies that one discriminates against an entire race, which danoff clearly does not. He has animosity towards certain individuals in his workplace, but it's no different than resenting "Steve" for getting a job just because his dad is the boss. See?

When I know that black people sometimes get picked for their skin color and not their qualifications it undermines ALL of their credibility in my mind - because I don't know which ones are the result of discrimination.

(rant) ALL sure sounds like an entire race of working class black people. Shame on you guys for defending danoff's quote. danoff, you say some good things that I would even agree with but then you say something like that? You want to talk about private sector? Everyone is discriminated against, black, white, Hispanic, Jew, male, female....even without your hypocritical Affirmative Action. Taking it away won't solve anything and there's rarely any evidence to prosecute employers that do discriminate.

I said it and Brian said it better, these men and woman are still qualified for the job that they are being hired to do. Change your thinking, you're wrong. It is completely unfair to judge an entire working class of people just because of their skin color and/or gender. If you aren't willing to accept the answer to your question then don't ask for one.

 

[Carl.]

Does anyone against affirmative action has an alternative other than "let's ditch the whole thing and let racial discrimination magically sort itself out"?

Please explain how you would have tried to solve the issue starting from the 50s.

 

[Solid Lifters]

WASHINGTON - Scientists said Thursday that they had discovered a tiny genetic mutation that largely explains the first appearance of white skin in humans tens of thousands of years ago, a finding that helps solve one of biology's most enduring mysteries and illuminates one of humanity's greatest sources of strife.

The work suggests that the skin-whitening mutation occurred by chance in a single individual after the first human exodus from Africa, when all people were brown-skinned. That person's offspring apparently thrived as humans moved northward into what is now Europe, helping to give rise to the lightest of the world's races.

Leaders of the study, at Penn State University, warned against interpreting the finding as a discovery of "the race gene." Race is a vaguely defined biological, social and political concept, they noted, and skin color is only part of what race is - and is not.

In fact, several scientists said, the new work shows just how small a biological difference is reflected by skin color. The newly found mutation involves a change of just one letter of DNA code out of the 3.1 billion letters in the human genome - the complete instructions for making a human being.

"It's a major finding in a very sensitive area," said Stephen Oppenheimer, an expert in anthropological genetics at Oxford University, who was not involved in the work. "Almost all the differences used to differentiate populations from around the world really are skin deep."

The work raises a raft of new questions - not least of which is why white skin caught on so thoroughly in northern climes once it arose. Some scientists suggest that lighter skin offered a strong survival advantage for people who migrated out of Africa by boosting their levels of bone-strengthening vitamin D; others have posited that its novelty and showiness simply made it more attractive to those seeking mates.

The work also reveals for the first time that Asians owe their relatively light skin to different mutations. That means that light skin arose independently at least twice in human evolution, in each case affecting populations with the facial and other traits that today are commonly regarded as the hallmarks of Caucasian and Asian races.

Several sociologists and others said they feared that such revelations might wrongly overshadow the prevailing finding of genetics during the past 10 years: that the number of DNA differences between races is tiny compared with the range of genetic diversity found within any single racial group.

Even study leader Keith Cheng said he was at first uncomfortable talking about the new work, fearing that the finding of such a clear genetic difference between people of African and European ancestries might reawaken discredited assertions of other purported inborn differences between races.

Cheng and co-worker Victor Canfield said the gene they discovered might be a good target for new drugs against melanoma, a cancer in which the gene works overtime.

So, it's time for we, the genetically flawed, to unite. It's time we had a voice. UNITE, my fellow freaks!

Seriously, what about the idea that racism itself is a form of collectivism? That is racism judges a person not as an individual as themselves, but as a member of collective and emphasizes your own collective (your own "race") over your individual free will. Opposition to racism (that is racism in principle, rather than one specific instance of racism) is then in principle individualist; it stresses that individuals should be evaluated on their own, not in regards to a specific collective (either your own or the other person's race).

What about the end of "affirmative action?" Therefor, we are all then evaluated on a individual basis, wouldn't the special collective then be formulated from those qualified for the purpose at hand, rather than on followed set of "social" rules. But if we define racism as a form of collectivism, are then all collectives formulated on individualism considered another form of racism to some degree? Social rules such as affirmative action which can rear abuse, intolerance and racism itself*. Will collectives based an individualism fall into this same position?


*Federal appeals courts routinely rule against institutions that fire or harass white employees, recognizing that whites can indeed be victims of racism. See, e.g., Bowen v. Missouri Department of Social Services (2002) (racial harassment of white employee by black co-worker); Taxman v. Board of Education (1996) (termination of white teacher instead of black teacher). And the Supreme Court held that racial discrimination against whites by local governments is generally illegal in City of Richmond v. J.A. Croson Co. (1989). Affirmative action is only permitted in order to open doors (hiring and promotions), and can’t be used to justify terminating or harassing an employee.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

I'm not gonna quote stories, or rant on for an hour, but, I've worked at places that hired black people simply because they were afraid of being called racist, I've seen it, I couldnt prove it, that's a highly difficult thing to do, in any case.
More than that, I've seen cases where employers wouldnt fire minorities because they were afraid of a lawsuit, whereas white people, who did less, got canned right away.
This hasnt had the effect on me that it has on Danoff, I don't question every minorities credentials for the job they are performing.
BUT, if I saw it all the time, at places I worked, in a more consistent form, I might start to go that way. As of now, I simply hate the sole individual beneficiary of the said discrimination.

I judge everybody, no matter the race, country, I judge everyone I meet, on first sight, and or words with them, as i've found you can usually tell if you'll like a person right away. And I think everyone does this, though many won't admit it, because they've been told it's bad. Well, it's human nature, and it's only a problem if you're neglecting decent thoughts about someone, because of who/what/where they're from. or if you simply dislike all from a race, and never think positivly of them.

 

[Swift]

Danoff, if you base your judgement of an entire race on one government policy, then YEP!!! You are a racist. End of discussion. Of course, I'm sorry to say that as I've usually found your opinions to be very open minded.

 

[Duke]

In your opinion. Pure equality is difficult to grasp, because no society in human history has gotten even close to perfect equality. It would be a utopia. Too bad it's impossible.

No, it wouldn't be a utopia, it would be a living hell. But that's for a different thread.

On the topic at hand, I have not necessarily experienced thoughts similar to danoff's, but I can understand them. And I have experienced related issues.

I work in a largely white-male-dominated field - architecture and building engineering. In the last few decades women have made great inroads into the field. My last boss was a woman, sole proprietor of her own practice, who made quite a success of herself. Out of 22 professionals in my group, 9 are women.

Asians and Middle Easterners have also made inroads into the field. Of the 5 or 6 structural engineers I work with, 1 is Indian and 2 are Pakistani. None are black.

Blacks, however, remain very under-represented in comparison to the general population distribution. Of the 28 people I mentioned above, 1 is black (she's also a woman).

We had another black person (male) here as well. During his entire 2- to 3-year tenure as an architectural draftsman and designer, he was never more than marginally competent. He didn't take direction well; he made as little effort as possible; he learned almost nothing (not even by simple exposure); his work never improved.

Was it coincidence that he was black? Almost definitely.

What wasn't coincidence was that he was kept on for at least 18 months, if not 2 years, after it became apparent that he was barely competent and had no interest in becoming competent (he was not stupid in any way; just not interested in learning the job). My manager came to each of us, the studio managers, and asked us for ideas on how we could coax the guy along and get him to be anything but a liability. They even held his job open for him when he took 3 months off for personal reasons, despite the fact that it would have been a perfectly reasonable excuse to dump him. He eventually quit after getting a different job in another firm.

This was a young, single black male. During more or less the same period, we also had a young (but slightly older) married white male draftsman with 2 kids, whose wife did not work due to disability.

This white draftsman was also relatively incompetent. His work was decent at times, but he spent most of his day doing personal stuff and screwing around online. So his output was low and because he wasn't paying much attention it could be sloppy as well.

Neither person did anything directly subject to termination. The black guy was kept on for 2 years after proving his incompetence, despite being single. The white guy was asked to resign 6 months after his first review, despite being married and having a family to support. Both were equally capable of improving their performance, but the company went far out of their way to avoid even appearing to be prejudiced in the case of the black guy, and made not the slightest effort in the case of the white guy.

 

[Danoff]

Danoff, if you base your judgement of an entire race on one government policy, then YEP!!! You are a racist. End of discussion.

Yup. That's the conclusion I've come to as well. I am racist. And justifiably so.

Affirmative Action is not "reverse discrimination", "racism" etc. It's compensation for past and continuing injustices. Again, affirmative action is not there for minorities because of who we are. It's because minorities have been exploited (to put it mildly). People are awarded compensatory damages all the time... affirmative action is just another example. A "class-action lawsuit", if you will, in which we won.

Worst post I've ever seen from you. How can you bend your mind around to think that his kind of racism is ok? You say, it's retribution for past injustices , but what it actually is is discrimination against people who have done NOTHING WRONG based on skin color. That's out-and-out racism.

My wife was publicly verbally attacked because of her skin (white) and hair color (blonde). She was in tears.

In conclusion, the belief that qualified white people are denied jobs and access to education in favor of less-qualified minorities is a myth.

The ****ing nerve you have to sit there and tell me it's a myth when I LIVE it! My sister was discriminated against by a public institution because of her skin color - her spot was given away to a less qualified person because they were black and she was heart-broken. It's simple math!!

100 spots are open. If you take the top 100 qualified applicants and find that you're short on black people, the only way to increase the number of black people is bump qualified applicants . My hands are shaking while I type this I'm so pissed off.

When that ^^ happens, when less qualified people get preference because of skin color, there is no way anyone can tell me that a new kind of racism - a racism that undermines the credibility of every black person because a few of them haven't made it on their own merits - is bred and completely justified . It sucks for the ones that didn't need a helping hand, but there is no way to know who has made it because of their skin color and who has not.

So how about it? Still want to support the justification of racism against you?

 

[Swift]

Yup. That's the conclusion I've come to as well. I am racist. And justifiably so.

How is it justified to hold a negative judgement over an entire race because of a GOVERNMENT policy?

My wife was publicly verbally attacked because of her skin (white) and hair color (blonde). She was in tears.

This is very bad. What happened?

 

[F1GTR]

You can have all the qualifications you want, but in the end, the other person may have an advantage over you (when applying for a job). And most likely it isn't skin colour.

 

[Danoff]

How is it justified to hold a negative judgement over an entire race because of a GOVERNMENT policy?

It's not exactly a negative judgement - it's a doubt about the merits of their position. That's not really a judgement as much as it is a reservation. It's justified because affirmative action puts some black people in places where they simply wouldn't be if merit, and not skin color, were the determining factor.

What other conclusion can I draw Swift?

This is very bad. What happened?

It was a student panel on race relations at the university. My wife was stupid enough to volunteer for the panel despite the fact that her skin color was white. That was a big mistake. She should have known that when there's a panel about race at a university, white people cannot participate.