Am I Becoming Racist? (rant)

[Famine]

Its like my friends who are 19 and drive drop top BMW's. They get pulled over alot, theyre not white, (ones greek the others bangladeshi). They dont dress like crimanals they just dress like a average Londoner. Often have we wondered if they were white if they would get pulled over as much, especially for my muslim friend.

My brother used to get pulled over a lot (and I mean a lot) - mainly because he looked like an idiot and dressed like an idiot. These days he doesn't look like an idiot or dress like an idiot and hasn't been pulled over in years.

I'll leave you to guess his skin colour.

 

[Poverty]

age difference my dear famine. A 19yr old is more likely to get pulled over than a 25yr old. But id say that is a sort of "Ism" too, and it depends on the location where he lives. Its like a white person who dresses like a black person is more likely to get pulled over, now they say racism is mainly that of skin colour but as the dress style originated from black people the police would be inclined to thing, black dress style = criminal.

 

[Famine]

age difference my dear famine. A 19yr old is more likely to get pulled over than a 25yr old. But id say that is a sort of "Ism" too, and it depends on the location where he lives.

He's a young male who NOW lives in Essex and drives a Subaru (back then he was a younger male who lived in South Yorkshire and drove a Fiesta). That should add up to "Excuse me, sir? May I have a word?", but doesn't.

Its like a white person who dresses like a black person

What the hell is this? "Dresses like a black person"? How is "insert characteristic here like a insert ethnicity here" NOT racist stereotyping?

You remember "The Fresh Prince of Bel Air"? Tell me - into what racial groupings would you put Will and Carlton's dress styles? Would someone who dressed like Carlton still dress "like a black person", or is it only someone who dressed like Will?

is more likely to get pulled over, now they say racism is mainly that of skin colour but as the dress style originated from black people the police would be inclined to thing, black dress style = criminal.

Nope. It's numbers - or "profiling".

In the case of drivers, young males tend to have mechanical defects with their cars more than other groups. This makes them a better group to pull over because you're more likely to get an arrestable or endorsable offence out of them. Is that ageist or sexist? Nope - it's playing the odds.

Similarly, young black males tend to have incomplete documentation more than other groups - and in a peculiar statistical quirk (which I cannot back up with numerical quotes, but am informed by serving traffic officers), are more likely to be carrying weapons and drugs. This makes them an extremely good group to pull over, because you're much more likely to get both arrestable AND endorsable offences out of them. Again, this isn't racist, ageist or sexist.

In a society which thrives on results and league tables, the only police force which survives is one which produces results - so they use profiling to get them. Is it the police's fault? Sure - it's always the police's fault when they catch a criminal.


Let me illustrate with a question. Why are there more black males in prison, in proportion to the numbers of black males in society? Is it because police and courts target black males? Is it because black males commit more detainable offences? Is it a mixture of both? Is there another reason?

 

[Poverty]

Id go with the first one. OIf you always target a certain group of people you will obviously have more results. Everywhere in the world the crime figures have an Iceberg effect, and figures are skewed.

He's a young male who NOW lives in Essex and drives a Subaru

Scoobies are a dime a dozen in Essex these days.

You remember "The Fresh Prince of Bel Air"? Tell me - into what racial groupings would you put Will and Carlton's dress styles? Would someone who dressed like Carlton still dress "like a black person", or is it only someone who dressed like Will?

Only someone dressed like Will. Carlton would get pulled over but once they heard him speak hed be good to go

A example.

Me and my mixed race friend where out one night. We were at the local shopping centre and a large group of young white males were kicking in two drunk whitemen. One of the men gets stabbed and eventually police arrive. The young men all run off on foot and the police goes after them. Me and my friend who were barely bystanders at a distance continued to watch untill a policeman starts running over to us (not to question, to arrest) we then run away aswell. Eventually after time the police caught some of the men and us too. The young men were all aged around 17-19, I was 14 and my friend 16.

I was brought into the station and the police took my details, then as I sat to be transfered into a cell they brought in my mixed race friend, and one of the policeman said, " So is this the stabber then". Now you might think the man was just askin because the stabber was one of the next men to come in, but he wasnt. The stabber got away. The police automatically assumed because he was the only none white male he must have been the stabber. My friend wasnt happy at all, as the police said they arrested him because they had him on CCTV attacking the man, which they didnt because we never did such a thing, and being the only none white there they could have easily seen on the CCTV that they got it wrong. We didnt get out of jail till 5am the next morning.

 

[Dave A]

Me and my mixed race friend where out one night. We were at the local shopping centre and a large group of young white males were kicking in two drunk whitemen. One of the men gets stabbed and eventually police arrive. The young men all run off on foot and the police goes after them. Me and my friend who were barely bystanders at a distance continued to watch untill a policeman starts running over to us (not to question, to arrest) we then run away aswell. Eventually after time the police caught some of the men and us too. The young men were all aged around 17-19, I was 14 and my friend 16.

How did you know they were coming over to arrest you, by the way they were walkiing. Or did they just say, oh look lets arrest them two who are watching from over there. You do realise that running away is probably the main thing that contributed to them making the assumption that a: you were involved, and b: one you was the stabber. It's not that uncommon for somone who's stabbed someone to hang around to see what's happening if there were no people who could id him.

 

[Poverty]

Well its under the circumstances, basically the attackers were really brazen in that they didnt run away until the police was practically breathing down theyre neck, me and my friend were away from the group of attackers by about 5metres, and everyone would clearly see we had nothing to do with it. So as 1 policeman ran towards the group the other one ran towards me and my friend, and everyone else bolted, we had no intention of running but we saw what the policeman intentions were so my friend was off. Also all the attackers were chavi adiadas wearing boys, my friend was in baggy all black tracksuit with white shoes, and then theres also the age difference between us and the attackers. Basically I knew they were comming to arrest us because why else would the policeman run straight ttowards us whilst the other policeman ran towards the group of attackers.

They say that after a couple years of serving in the police force it makes you racist, and I believe that as when I told the officers how its obvious me and my friend had nothing to do with it the only one that belived us was the younger trainee officers.

 

[Dave A]

Even if they were coming to arrest you, do you have any idea of how stupid it was to run, by running your basically saying your part of that group of lads. How do you expect to be treated at the station when you've given them such a big reason to suspect you. When police treat somone like they know they've done it, like saying they knew it was your friend because they saw him on CCTV, they're doing it to get a confession out of him, if the stabber hears them saying they've got him on CCTV and the evidence is indesputable then he may see that his best option is to confess and co-operate to get a reduced sentence. That's why they say things like that to you, if you hadn't run you might have still been arrested sure, but perhaps dealt with in a less suspicous way.

 

[MrktMkr1986]

An eye for an eye, right? Only problem with that is that everyone ends up blind.

Society has a long history of awarding damages to people who have been wronged. Like a class-action suit for example, not the death penalty.

By what method is this "retribution" exacted?

Excellent question! By ensuring that employers/admissions officers make a good faith effort to hire/admit a good cross-section of society. Nothing more. And statistics show that companies/schools actually benefit from a culturally-diverse environment! So it's a win-win situation for everyone.

Discrimination based on physical characteristics? Gosh!

Absolutely not! Even if an institution is 100% white, they would incur no legal penalty as long as they can prove that they made an effort to hire minorities. In the event that this happens, the goals (not "quotas" as has been constantly referred to in previous posts) are simply reset the next year, and the next and so on.

No one is being discriminated against with the existence of Affirmative Action.

Out of interest, do you really think getting rid of racism (using this part as an example, though it could easily be sexism, or "disablism", or ageism, on any -ism) is best done by drawing attention to skin colour?

Absolutely not! That would be a silly thing to do. All you did was make a case as to why we shouldn't have a Black History Month, for example. It draws attention to skin color in an effort to get rid of racism (by educating people about Black history)... that's not Affirmative Action, though. People like Dan, with their racist attitudes, are the ones that "color" (sorry, couldn't resist) the facts about Affirmative Action.

 

[Famine]

All you did was make a case as to why we shouldn't have a Black History Month, for example.

Quite right too. Nor should we have a Miss Black America, or MoBOs.

Black people are people. They aren't some weird alternate universe spacezombies who've played no part in the history of the planet and need to have their own activites and festivities separate to everyone else.

 

[Gen.]

some weird alternate universe spacezombies

You shouldn't discriminate against spacezombies.

Seriously, your never going to be 100% pure. People are always going to have pretences, consciously and sub-conconsciously.

 

[ledhed]

I wouldnt know your chances of getting ur job in the states I read abit of ur profile and ur assist manager thats cool I reckon you could get a job in the uk easily definitly in a major city like london and you will be judged in ur merits here cause you would get more mixed aplicants from all races like I said I worked in both the public and private sector and my environment was mixed to be honest I don't know if I could work in a place where the workforce is mainly made up of white people or black or any other race especially in the public sector it wouldnt make up a decent representation of the population say for instance in london 1 in 3 people living in london is from an ethnic minority so you can see that being an ethnic minority in london pretty much makes u the majority if u put yourself with the chinese and indians etc. Basically I'm saying its probably easier to get a job in london than it is in new york because london is a multicultural evironment while newyork just has many cultures you see what I'm trying to get at here? maybe if danoff lived here his views wouldnt be so harsh on black people

New York is one of the MOST multiculural places in the WORLD .

I doubt you have any idea how dumb that comparason sounds to anyone who has been to or lived in New York .

 

[keeno_uk]

You misunderstand what I said I didnt say New York consists of only white people I said it has many cultures however your communities are less intergrated as London thats all

oh and by the way I have been to the NYC I'm not gonna base my judgments from thin air

 

[Kylehnat]

In the event that this happens, the goals (not "quotas" as has been constantly referred to in previous posts) are simply reset the next year, and the next and so on.

You're right, companies don't have specific quotas, but they do have "goals." After talking to my dad and sister yesterday, we determined that companies LOVE to be diverse, and love to flaunt it. My dad works for a very large corporation, and he knows for fact that about half of the new engineering hires in his department are women. If you go to any mechanical engineering department in the country, you will quickly see that this is not a representative sample of gender ratios. This is not to imply that these women are not qualified or capable, but it is an indication that some employers like to hire certain people, whether they're held accountable for it or not.

 

[Pako]

Alright, how many of you actually hire employees? I do and I can honestly say that race or gender is not a deciding factor to hire/fire a person. If you can't see past the race or gender of an individual then that's your own problem and should probably be working on corrective thinking. To hide behind legislation as an excuse to flawed thinking, that is also your problem and should also consider working on corrective thinking.

 

[Famine]

Alright, how many of you actualy hire employees? I do and I can honestly say that race or gender is not a deciding factor to hire/fire a person. If you can't see past the race or gender of an individual then that's your own problem and should probably be working on corrective thinking. To hide behind legislation as an excuse to flawed thinking, that is also your problem and should also consider working on corrective thinking.

I wasn't allowed to hire someone - I was vetoed from above - because of their religion.

I kid you not.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

You misunderstand what I said I didnt say New York consists of only white people I said it has many cultures however your communities are less intergrated as London thats all

oh and by the way I have been to the NYC I'm not gonna base my judgments from thin air

I hate the way he types, and can't usually stand to read his posts, because they're all one giant run-on sentance, BUT, he may have a point here.
New York is, at least in some ways, very culturaly divided. You have black neighborhoods, China towns, and the rest of it, Italians.


@Poverty: I'd bet the farm I don't have, along with Bill Gates fortunes that if you, and your friend, had not been there, and instead, it was me, and my brother, both being white, they damn sure would have arrested the both of us. Our cloths? how about... khaki pants, a pocket-T shirt, plain normal shoes. not black, right? not white bum, right? we're young and we have shaved or almost shaved heads, 99 days out of 100.

People's biggest mistake, when evaluating events, is forgetting the age factor. yes, the 20 year old is black. he got pulled over. but what this? over here we have a 20 year old white guy pulled over too!
Cops look for type of people not by color of skin, but by dress, by hair, by the shape of their faces, their demeanor, things like these. you can dress in a tux, but now you're in the mob. dress like a prep, but walk around with a fake limp, grabbing your nuts, and see how cops look at you, and if they zero in on you.
How you ACT, dress & your demeanor have a far bigger effect than your skin color.

Oh, and the people who pawned baggy pants, bragged about being criminals and people who took after that, and dressed the same, became associated with them. and on, and on, and on.

Show me the people who brag about crime, and how they dress, and I'll show you a stereotype cops follow.
better yet, blast Slipknot around a cop, with a bald head. try that. does he hate me cause i'm white?

 

[Duke]

Well its under the circumstances, basically the attackers were really brazen in that they didnt run away until the police was practically breathing down theyre neck, me and my friend were away from the group of attackers by about 5metres, and everyone would clearly see we had nothing to do with it. So as 1 policeman ran towards the group the other one ran towards me and my friend, and everyone else bolted, we had no intention of running but we saw what the policeman intentions were so my friend was off. Also all the attackers were chavi adiadas wearing boys, my friend was in baggy all black tracksuit with white shoes, and then theres also the age difference between us and the attackers. Basically I knew they were comming to arrest us because why else would the policeman run straight ttowards us whilst the other policeman ran towards the group of attackers.

They say that after a couple years of serving in the police force it makes you racist, and I believe that as when I told the officers how its obvious me and my friend had nothing to do with it the only one that belived us was the younger trainee officers.

I love how you're still completely ignoring the point that jumping to the conclusion that you were about to get arrested and your actions in running away were major contributors to your treatment by the police.

Have you never considered that if you had stood still, held your hands away from your bodies, and waited for the policeman to get there and talk to you, that you might have never been arrested in the first place?!

 

[Pako]

I wasn't allowed to hire someone - I was vetoed from above - because of their religion.

I kid you not.

What? Are you serious? How long ago was that? What were the circumstances? Was it just 'suggest indirectly' to not hire this person? Just curious.

 

[Poverty]

It was one of those you had to be there moments, and in the UK the police dont care, they will arrest you for anything these days, especially since the attack I describe is a common thing which happens everyday, and is just a 2 minute walk from the head police station. The people are fed up because kids rule the streets at night, and the police now have alot of power to combat it, thanks to new laws being rushed through parliament.

I said the same thing to my mate, but he said going by past experiences we would have ended up in the station wheter we liked it or not.

One important thing that I forgot to mention was that two of the attackers friends came over and talked to us whilst the others did the bashing, and subsequently ran with the others, thats probably why we did get arrested, but that wasnt the point of my post. Why was it as soon as the mixed raced kid entered the police station that the policeman automatically assumed he was the stabber.

@Poverty: I'd bet the farm I don't have, along with Bill Gates fortunes that if you, and your friend, had not been there, and instead, it was me, and my brother, both being white, they damn sure would have arrested the both of us. Our cloths? how about... khaki pants, a pocket-T shirt, plain normal shoes. not black, right? not white bum, right? we're young and we have shaved or almost shaved heads, 99 days out of 100.

I doubt you would have, dont fit the profile.

@Poverty: I'd bet the farm I don't have, along with Bill Gates fortunes that if you, and your friend, had not been there, and instead, it was me, and my brother, both being white, they damn sure would have arrested the both of us. Our cloths? how about... khaki pants, a pocket-T shirt, plain normal shoes. not black, right? not white bum, right? we're young and we have shaved or almost shaved heads, 99 days out of 100.

Rap music game from the ghettos. The ghettos didnt come from the rap music. I blame the invisble lines of segration, as in the UK now that west indian people have become nearly fully integrated into society, and no longer live in theyre groups like they did before that race relations between whites and west indians have been at an all time high. Hell once a BNP supporter was telling a west indian man how he believed that it in the near future whites and west indians would be having race riots with muslims.

 

[Famine]

What? Are you serious? How long ago was that? What were the circumstances? Was it just 'suggest indirectly' to not hire this person? Just curious.

Yes - and not very long ago at all.

The religious leanings of the organisation I work for and the religious leanings of the person I wished to hire are at odds with one another (quite why I was allowed to interview them in the first place I don't know) by way of schism, rather than one religion vs. another. Given my complete absence of religious leanings at all, I found it quite amusing that they would let me in, but not someone who believes in almost the exact same thing as them but with one slight difference.

Other reasons were given, but the appearance of this person's religion on their application form just made the uber-bosses shudder.

 

[Poverty]

was he a muslim?

 

[Swift]

was he a muslim?

I think it's pretty obvious that Famine doesn't want to disclose the exact details of the religions or faiths in question.

 

[Famine]

I think it's pretty obvious that Famine doesn't want to disclose the exact details of the religions or faiths in question.

Or genders...

Suffice to say that had "applicant" been a Muslim, it would have been akin to a Sun'ni establishment not allowing me to appoint a Shi'ite - or vice versa.

 

[Danoff]

Society has a long history of awarding damages to people who have been wronged. Like a class-action suit for example, not the death penalty.

Typically, the damages are paid by the individuals guilty of wrong-doing. Penalizing innocent people for damages done to dead people isn't going to solve anything.

Excellent question! By ensuring that employers/admissions officers make a good faith effort to hire/admit a good cross-section of society. Nothing more. And statistics show that companies/schools actually benefit from a culturally-diverse environment! So it's a win-win situation for everyone.

That might be the letter of the law, but that is NOT how it's practiced by universities across the country. Even universities that are prohibited by law from discriminating based on race do so. I know a little bit about how the admission policies of a few universities. I know that details within applications are used to classify them as black or white. Somebody wants to enroll in the "race studies" program? Put them in the black pile. Someone talks about their cultural heritage on their essay? They can't be white, white people have no cultural heritage - put them in the black pile. There are lots of ways to determine who is black and who is not (aside from the normal simple, "are you black, white, hispanic or other?"). Applications are separated into groups according to race. Points are assigned for SAT scores, GPA, essay, extra curriculars, and you get extra points if you're in the black pile.

Seriously! That's how it works Brian. Even in a state where that kind of practice is illegal . It isn't prosecuted because the people who would do the prosecuting and the people who run the university believe that it's the right thing to do. They firmly believe, as you do, that Black people are owed retribution by white kids today entering college. They believe that these college age kids should attone for the sins of their ancestors to the group who's ancestors were victimized.

Edit: Universities offer black-only or hispanic-only job fairs as well. They invite companies to their campuses using tax dollars to host the event, and offer certain ethnicities exclusive time with employers. Then, when those are finished, everyone gets a shot. Is this fair? Of course not. Is it public, tolerated, racism? Absolutely.

...and it justifies racism. When I know, for a fact, that some black people were given an unfair advantage, it creates a little voice in my head that wonders which ones benefitted.

All you did was make a case as to why we shouldn't have a Black History Month, for example. It draws attention to skin color in an effort to get rid of racism (by educating people about Black history)...

Black history month is unbelievably racist and publicly so. As are black-only award shows. When wondering whether AA, or black history month, or black award shows are racist, just ask yourself if it benefitted white people instead of black people would it tick you off? If the answer is yes, it's probably racist.

that's not Affirmative Action, though. People like Dan, with their racist attitudes, are the ones that "color" (sorry, couldn't resist) the facts about Affirmative Action.

My attitude is racist? My attitude is to be skeptical of hiring motives. I do it all the time. When the boss's son is hired, I'm skeptical of his qualifications. When a pretty secretary is hired, I'm skeptical of her qualifications. When the almost all Jewish hiring committee hires a jewish person, I'm skeptical of the hiree's qualifications. And when black people are discriminated in favor of, I'm skeptical of their qualifications.

Yes, that requires me to group people. It requires that I group people by last name, attractiveness, religion, and skin color respectively. Yes my doubt is linked with those characterisitics, and yes when I do it in regard to skin color, it can be considered racist. But it can't be considered unjustified.

 

[FoolKiller]

I have finally read all six pages of this. After all that I have come to a conclusion to danoff's original question: is he racist?

I do not believe that danoff is racist. To me it seems that he is projecting. He has feelings created by the affirmative action system and because there is no physical thing that is affirmative action he projects his feelings towards those that it benefits most.

Danoff, I believe your issue is more psychological. Based on the story of your sister and the reactions when others addressed it I feel you may be emotionally involved and it is beginning to skew your view of co-workers. At my job I am not involved in the hiring process, in fact we use an employment agency. The agency gives a test that we gave them and we don't know their race until they walk in the door to fill out our hiring forms after passing our test.

You would be better served judging everyone on observed merit instead of questioning their merit without seeing anything for yourself. That is why many employers have a 30-90 day probationary period for new hires. If they fall short they are gone before they have a chance to do any real damage.

Do any of the black people in your office fall short of performing their described job tasks? If so question them then. But use the same amount of judgment on everyone else. If they don't go above and beyond what they are hired for you cannot blame them for that because they hired on to do one thing and they refuse to do anything more. They shouldn't get promoted, but they shouldn't be fired.

I am happy to say that on my list of co-workers I think should be fired is a very diverse list that has a demographic that matches the office quite well. If I have any kind of prejudice it would be bubbly middle-aged women because when they gossip, chit-chat, and tell all their family stories they are not working. Notice I added the bubbly. We have a couple that are hard-nosed no-nonsense working women who have told the others to shut up before.

As for affirmative action in general, no matter how you describe it or what reasoninng you give for it in the end you are still hiring someone based on race, sex, sexual preference, whatever, and that is wrong.

If I worked in human resources and had the ability to change things I would remove those things from the job application. I wouldn't know them until they walked in for an interview and they wouldn't be on any official record until they filled out their personnel and tax forms. At that point it would be used for identification purposes only and any forms used for promotion would hide these details. If possible I would replace names with ID numbers as well.

If you can't hire someone without these details because their qualifications are all equal then flip a coin or throw a dart or something equally random. At least then you know the selection was not judging them based on any characteristic they were unable to help.

 

[Poverty]

Black history month is unbelievably racist and publicly so. As are black-only award shows. When wondering whether AA, or black history month, or black award shows are racist, just ask yourself if it benefitted white people instead of black people would it tick you off? If the answer is yes, it's probably racist.

It must be people like you then who banned christmas in certain parts of London with a high muslim count, because the person that did so thought for some silly reason that it might upset people of islamic belief.

Anyway the chinese have theyre own award ceremony, as does the latin community, and us whites used to have our own awards ceremony, until Denzel Washington played the role of a gangster and halle berry...well we all know what she played.

My attitude is racist? My attitude is to be skeptical of hiring motives. I do it all the time. When the boss's son is hired, I'm skeptical of his qualifications. When a pretty secretary is hired, I'm skeptical of her qualifications. When the almost all Jewish hiring committee hires a jewish person, I'm skeptical of the hiree's qualifications. And when black people are discriminated in favor of, I'm skeptical of their qualifications.

Going by that way of thinking you should be skeptical if you got hired because you are white, or maybe because you support the same football team as the recruiter, or maybe he just so happened to like you even though there were plenty more qualified people for your job.

Did you know that some companies wont hire graduates with a 1:1 but only a 2:1 shock oh horror. Its just all personal preference for what the employer thinks is best for the business. There are too many variables for you to be able to assume anything as you would be assuming all day.

If anything you should be the exact opposite of being racist as affirmative action exists because of racists. Black people dont want the job because theyre darker skinned than me or you, Im sure they would take pride in knowing that they got hired because theyre the best person for the job. And If affirmative action is aas widespread as you somehow belief then black people should have no problems getting a job at all, yet it doesnt quite work like that does it?

 

[Danoff]

Danoff, I believe your issue is more psychological. Based on the story of your sister and the reactions when others addressed it I feel you may be emotionally involved and it is beginning to skew your view of co-workers. At my job I am not involved in the hiring process, in fact we use an employment agency.

I won't deny that I'm emotionally invovled in this discussion as I've seen racism firsthand and what it has done to the people I love. But I don't think anyone can come at this conversation without some degree of emotional involvement. I can only say that I don't think it clouds my judgement.

You would be better served judging everyone on observed merit instead of questioning their merit without seeing anything for yourself. That is why many employers have a 30-90 day probationary period for new hires. If they fall short they are gone before they have a chance to do any real damage.

The question isn't whether they're going to do a ton of damage. It's whether they're hired and kept on because of their skin color and not their merits. The boss's son might be an OK employee as well, but if he displaced a better candidate, the hiring was biased.

Do any of the black people in your office fall short of performing their described job tasks?

No. Everyone I work with people who are tops in the field. When it comes to what I do, nobody in the world does it better than the organization I work for - they literally have their pick of employees. So almost everyone they pick is a superstar. I wouldn't know if the black people I work with are discriminated in favor of because they're phenomenal. Sure there might have been an even more amazing candidate that was turned down, but I'd never know and that kind of speculation won't get me anywhere. All I can tell you is that the company I work for seems to hire based on merit alone. But that's a conclusion I came to after some investigation. It wasn't something I could simply assume would happen. Enough discrimination goes on in hiring that I was skeptical at first.

 

[Danoff]

Going by that way of thinking you should be skeptical if you got hired because you are white, or maybe because you support the same football team as the recruiter, or maybe he just so happened to like you even though there were plenty more qualified people for your job.

I'm only skeptical of the areas of discrimination I actually observe happening. I've never seen a white person get the nod over a more qualified black person. What I see are people jumping at the opportunitiy to get black people to boost their "diversity" so that nobody can claim they're racist - even if it means lowering standards.

 

[Swift]

I'm only skeptical of the areas of discrimination I actually observe happening. I've never seen a white person get the nod over a more qualified black person. What I see are people jumping at the opportunitiy to get black people to boost their "diversity" so that nobody can claim they're racist - even if it means lowering standards.

...and who's fault is that?

 

[FoolKiller]

I won't deny that I'm emotionally invovled in this discussion as I've seen racism firsthand and what it has done to the people I love. But I don't think anyone can come at this conversation without some degree of emotional involvement. I can only say that I don't think it clouds my judgement.

I can believe that your judgment is uncluded as your statements fit what I know of your personal philosophy. Either way, I don't believe you are racist because you don't distrust the integrity of black people as a race, just the integrity of the system that gave them the job. I do feel that from the way you sound you question that black individual when they might even be unaware that they have benefitted from affirmative action. You can't blame a person for receiving benefits they are unaware that they received.

The question isn't whether they're going to do a ton of damage. It's whether they're hired and kept on because of their skin color and not their merits. The boss's son might be an OK employee as well, but if he displaced a better candidate, the hiring was biased.

I was using it as an example of how you should view employees. Unless you know what went on in their hiring or were involved in some way you can only judge a person by what you observe. If they appear to be one of the best in their field you cannot assume that they are anything less. Let them prove themselves. Without being involved in hiring or witnessing the process you can only know what you see and all you can see is how they do their job. If someone who was better got passed over then the results of these actions will show over time as a competitor picks up these other candidates and slowly becomes better than the company you work for.

All I can tell you is that the company I work for seems to hire based on merit alone. But that's a conclusion I came to after some investigation. It wasn't something I could simply assume would happen. Enough discrimination goes on in hiring that I was skeptical at first.

Be careful whose feet you step on doing your investigation. Had it turned out that your company did practice affirmative action or even that someone easily offended found out you were looking into this you could have found yourself without a job and a black mark on your record. You might not want to work for someone that practices affirmative action, but you want to leave on your terms, not theirs.

Fortunately for you it appears your company has the same mindset on this that you do.