Am I Becoming Racist? (rant)

[Danoff]

...and who's fault is that?

Which? That I observe certain kinds of discrimination? Or that people discriminate?

 

[Dave A]

...and who's fault is that?

Not the majority of todays working populations fault that's for sure.

 

[Swift]

Which? That I observe certain kinds of discrimination? Or that people discriminate?

The fact that some people are picked just because of color or lack there of.

 

[Danoff]

The fact that some people are picked just because of color or lack there of.

It depends. Part of the fault is definitely with the person doing the picking. Some of the fault has to also be with a person who takes advantage of that situation.

Regardless, even if the person had no idea they were discriminated in favor of, if they're unqualified they're unqualified. Whether a person is unqualified is exactly what I'm reserving judgement about.

 

[Swift]

It depends. Part of the fault is definitely with the person doing the picking. Some of the fault has to also be with a person who takes advantage of that situation.

Regardless, even if the person had no idea they were discriminated in favor of, if they're unqualified they're unqualified. Whether a person is unqualified is exactly what I'm reserving judgement about.

Sorry bud. But that's not who's at fault. The govenment is at fault for AA and of course allowing stupid lawsuits for people to sew potential employeers. If there was no chance of a stupid law suit, do you really think people would place that much emphasis on color?

 

[Dave A]

I think I missunderstood the context my last quoted question, I agree with this, it's not the black peoples fault for the governments law, it's not imo even thier fault for accepting a job when offered even if they're being offered it over a more suitable candidate for two reasons, firstly they wouldn't know there was a more suitable candidate and secondly if you were jobless and you got offered a job knowing you wern't as qualified as other people that had applied would you turn it down? I don't think so, I know I wouldn't turn around and say "yeah, I really want to work here but that guy's more qualified that me so I can't accept it". I do agree with danoff that the fact is that this law makes it easier to point the finger, that's understandable, it's not right to point the finger but it's inevitable that with laws like that it will happen and everyone has done it at some point in their life. But you can't criticise the people getting the benefit you can however criticise the people that are actually giving them that benefit over other races.

 

[Poverty]

Not the majority of todays working populations fault that's for sure.

Its still in the back of everyones minds unconsciously though,

Regardless, even if the person had no idea they were discriminated in favor of, if they're unqualified they're unqualified. Whether a person is unqualified is exactly what I'm reserving judgement about.

I dont think any person will get a job that they have no ability of doing.

 

[Dave A]

Its still in the back of everyones minds unconsciously though

how do you know? I only think about it when I hear it brought up, I never experienced thoes times I wasn't even born then so why should it be on the back of my mind. but like I said in my last post, that response of mine you quoted was me missunderstanding the question I was answering.

I dont think any person will get a job that they have no ability of doing.

You can get a job your no good at simply because your very confident in interviews, you can sound like a real whizz kid in an interview and then be the most incompetent sack of excrement at the actual job.

 

[Danoff]

Sorry bud. But that's not who's at fault. The govenment is at fault for AA and of course allowing stupid lawsuits for people to sew potential employeers. If there was no chance of a stupid law suit, do you really think people would place that much emphasis on color?

I agree that lawsuits encourage emphasis on color. I disagree with the notion, however, that you can hold the people who discriminate responsible for their actions, and the people that benefit from that as well.

If I can take this to an extreme to prove my point...

During segregation, if you drove a segregated bus, you're partly to blame for the act of segregation. If you patronized a shop that discriminated against blacks in favor of whites, you're part of the act of segregation.

Today its worse. The federal government doesn't have a law that says you HAVE to admit x percentage of black students to your publicly funded university. But people discriminate in admissions anyway. The federal government doesn't have a law that says you HAVE to have a certain percentage of black employees, but people discriminate anyway out of fear of a lawsuit. The people discriminating in this example are even worse than the guy that drove the bus. They're actively discriminating, not just carrying out discriminatory policies.

But if you accepted a job that you knew you weren't the best qualified candidate for, you've at least passively participated in the discrimination in your favor. However, if you DIDN'T know that you were discriminated in favor of, but you were, I can still think you don't belong in your position.

 

[Swift]

Ok, so they are all responding to either government policies or the threat of lawsuits or of of course bad press. To me, you entire issue is a symptom of our current cultural climate.

 

[Danoff]

Ok, so they are all responding to either government policies or the threat of lawsuits or of of course bad press. To me, you entire issue is a symptom of our current cultural climate.

Yup. Especially the associated abuses with tax dollars.

 

[Swift]

Yup. Especially the associated abuses with tax dollars.

So then, you are letting yourself become a racist. That's as bad as Anakin letting himself "become" Darth Vader, except you see it happening.

Dan, you've really got to let this go. Fighting the system makes sense. However, thinking that every third person is underqualified for their job and is just there because of color or no color does not. What does it accomplish if you stay angry and hateful like this?

 

[Danoff]

So then, you are letting yourself become a racist. That's as bad as Anakin letting himself "become" Darth Vader, except you see it happening.

Dan, you've really got to let this go. Fighting the system makes sense. However, thinking that every third person is underqualified for their job and is just there because of color or no color does not. What does it accomplish if you stay angry and hateful like this?

I suppose I'll go over to the dark side. Then maybe I'd get to play the race card. ( JOKE!! IT WAS A JOKE PEOPLE!!!)

Ok anyway I don't think every third person is underqualified. I just don't assume they're qualified. I don't assume the pretty secretary is a good secretary (she might be, but I don't assume it, I assume she was hired for her looks). I don't assume the boss's son is competent, though he might be. And I don't assume black people were hired for their merits alone - though they might have been. At an asian restaurant, I don't assume the asian waiters were hired for thier waiting abilities alone. Same with hooters. Sometimes it makes sense, other times it doesn't.

It's not that I'm trying to accomplish something by wondering about certain people. It's just that I happen to know that some people are hired because of their skin color/attractiveness/religion/etc. When I know that's going on, I tend to reserve my assumptions about competence. It's just a natural response - not a philosophical decision to accomplsih anything.

 

[FoolKiller]

I just don't assume they're qualified. I don't assume the pretty secretary is a good secretary (she might be, but I don't assume it, I assume she was hired for her looks).

I fail to see the problem with that.

It's not that I'm trying to accomplish something by wondering about certain people. It's just that I happen to know that some people are hired because of their skin color/attractiveness/religion/etc. When I know that's going on, I tend to reserve my assumptions about competence. It's just a natural response - not a philosophical decision to accomplsih anything.

Why wonder at all? What good does it serve you to question the merit of someone's status unless they happen to be a straight, white male that no one in the company has ever met before? At that point you can question whether he got that job because people began to mutter about affirmative action.

You are working yourself down a road where you cannot trust anyone's position is deserved, including your own. How do you know that something about you, other than your qualifications, didn't get you that job? You may be a white male who didn't know anyone there but the person who hired you or one of their friends may have thought you were cute or they may have been trying to make sure they didn't overdue affirmative action so that it wasn't noticed.

Or even if you were hired completely on your own merit how do you know that your work relations have caused Simone to like you for reasons other than your merit and any raises or promotions you have had have not been based on merit?

The only way you can not question any of this is if you run your own business. Of course then you have to ask yourself if you are the boss just because you started your own business or because you are the best man to run that business. Maybe you are showing undue favoritism toward yourself?

Facetiousness aside, questioning everyone's position and qualifications leads to nothing more than a hidden animosity that you might not even realize is there until you realize you hate that person, and it was for no fault of their own. They don't know if they were hired for affirmative action or not. No one told them they were being hired because they were black. All they know is that they were hired to do the job and if they are competently doing the job at the best of their abilities you should judge them for that. The person isn't slacking and they aren't letting their race give them a bye. That sounds like someone who is highly respectable.

Perhaps you should judge them on that. A character of a man cannot be judged by what someone else has secretly given or taken from them but by what they have proven themselves capable of in their own actions. If he desires to be judged equally then he deserves nothing less than that and your respect, not your suspicions and doubts.

I would have an easier time thinking that you are just reserving your judgement about competence if you had initially been talking about a new hire, but if I understood you correctly these are people you have already worked with for at least a little time. How long must you reserve your judgement?

 

[LeadSlead#2]

It must be people like you then who banned christmas in certain parts of London with a high muslim count, because the person that did so thought for some silly reason that it might upset people of islamic belief.

You just compared banning a racially divided month, awards ceremony, and law to banning a religious holiday. you know that, right?

Anyway the chinese have theyre own award ceremony, as does the latin community, and us whites used to have our own awards ceremony, until Denzel Washington played the role of a gangster and halle berry...well we all know what she played.

Stop listening to NAS, he's not that smart. really.
Denzel Washington never won the award because he always plays similar roles, and didnt show enough acting diversity. SURPRISE! the moment he showed he could play another role, he won an award, as people long thought he should! When you look at the whole picture, instead of pointing to racism, you might actually understand what happens.
EDIT: Halle Berry isnt even a great actress, so....PUUGH

If affirmative action is as widespread as you somehow belief then black people should have no problems getting a job at all, yet it doesnt quite work like that does it?

I don't know any black people who can't find jobs. but I do know black people who complain that they don't have better jobs because of the white man holdin' 'em down. (while working alongside white people)
I know how it works, a black man has a crap job, it cause of the man. a white man has a crap job, it's cause he's a bum
Poverty, you sound racist, and I don't think you even know it.

P.S. You're refusing to accept that it's a YOUNG profile.
Yes, we would have been arrested, I have dealt with cops before, and I know how they treat me, and my brother, and other YOUNG people - any race, dress, it's demeanor, attitude, if you don't know this open your eyes

 

[ledhed]

Sometimes a person gets hired just because the person doing the hiring likes him / her better . It could just be a chemistry thing...whats next personality discrimination suits ?


When I was an employer I hired people based on many considerations ...and it was not always the best person who got the job . I have had complete asshats that I knew were at the top of the field skills related...I could not stand them so I settled for someone with less skills. I was VERY discriminating when I was hiring . But never on color of someones skin or religion or politics . Except for a few KKK types who I thought wouldnt fit in...if you want to consider KKK politics then I was guilty of discriminating against them . Should I be sued ?

 

[throttlehappy]

bono
i hate that guy

 

[LeadSlead#2]

the KKK has as much right as a negro college

 

[keeno_uk]

I fail to see the problem with that.


Why wonder at all? What good does it serve you to question the merit of someone's status unless they happen to be a straight, white male that no one in the company has ever met before? At that point you can question whether he got that job because people began to mutter about affirmative action.

You are working yourself down a road where you cannot trust anyone's position is deserved, including your own. How do you know that something about you, other than your qualifications, didn't get you that job? You may be a white male who didn't know anyone there but the person who hired you or one of their friends may have thought you were cute or they may have been trying to make sure they didn't overdue affirmative action so that it wasn't noticed.

Or even if you were hired completely on your own merit how do you know that your work relations have caused Simone to like you for reasons other than your merit and any raises or promotions you have had have not been based on merit?

The only way you can not question any of this is if you run your own business. Of course then you have to ask yourself if you are the boss just because you started your own business or because you are the best man to run that business. Maybe you are showing undue favoritism toward yourself?

Facetiousness aside, questioning everyone's position and qualifications leads to nothing more than a hidden animosity that you might not even realize is there until you realize you hate that person, and it was for no fault of their own. They don't know if they were hired for affirmative action or not. No one told them they were being hired because they were black. All they know is that they were hired to do the job and if they are competently doing the job at the best of their abilities you should judge them for that. The person isn't slacking and they aren't letting their race give them a bye. That sounds like someone who is highly respectable.

Perhaps you should judge them on that. A character of a man cannot be judged by what someone else has secretly given or taken from them but by what they have proven themselves capable of in their own actions. If he desires to be judged equally then he deserves nothing less than that and your respect, not your suspicions and doubts.

I would have an easier time thinking that you are just reserving your judgement about competence if you had initially been talking about a new hire, but if I understood you correctly these are people you have already worked with for at least a little time. How long must you reserve your judgement?

I fully agree you couldnt put it any more clear than that.

 

[Poverty]

You can get a job your no good at simply because your very confident in interviews, you can sound like a real whizz kid in an interview and then be the most incompetent sack of excrement at the actual job.

Yes I agree with this, but what some people seem to be saying is that if a black man applies to be a doctor yet doesnt have the full or propper qualifications hed still be likely to get the job.

P.S. You're refusing to accept that it's a YOUNG profile.
Yes, we would have been arrested, I have dealt with cops before, and I know how they treat me, and my brother, and other YOUNG people - any race, dress, it's demeanor, attitude, if you don't know this open your eyes

Not in London it doesnt. Youd be the last people theyd suspect, as you would stick out like a sore thumb that you didnt belong there.

You just compared banning a racially divided month, awards ceremony, and law to banning a religious holiday. you know that, right?

Its not a law. You guys are upset that black people have theyre own awards ceremony, right? (which I dont see a problem with)So should the muslims be upset that we have our own religious holidays, and ban that too?

Stop listening to NAS, he's not that smart. really

I dont listen to NAS.Didnt even know he said something similiar.

I know how it works, a black man has a crap job, it cause of the man. a white man has a crap job, it's cause he's a bum

Thats sounds like what was on the TV program The Hughleys.

Poverty, you sound racist,

Having been brought in a multicultural society, I have been accustomed to defend the "minority". But tell me why I sound racist.

When I go to outskirts of London, (near bluewater shopping center) the area has white communities, black communities, and asian communities. When i go to the white shopping centers, the retail store assistans are all white. When I go to mcdonalds or KFC theyre all mainly either black or asian.

Then when I go to the shopping centres in the black communities, most the retail assistants are white, but in KFC and Maccie D's most the workers are black or asain yet again. Something tells me there isnt something quite right there. Oh and all the security guards are black!. Somethings off.

 

[Swift]

the KKK has as much right as a negro college

What are you talking about?

 

[Famine]

Its not a law. You guys are upset that black people have theyre own awards ceremony, right? (which I dont see a problem with)So should the muslims be upset that we have our own religious holidays, and ban that too?

Last I checked, Muslims weren't banned from taking part in Christmas festivities.

 

[Poverty]

Last I checked, Muslims weren't banned from taking part in Christmas festivities.

And last I heard white people were involved in the black music ceremony awards. Didnt the likes of the pussycat dolls and black eyed peas participate.

The people that want to ban it is just spoiling things for others, (christians, non christians, blacks and kids everywhere)

 

[Danoff]

Why wonder at all? What good does it serve you to question the merit of someone's status unless they happen to be a straight, white male that no one in the company has ever met before? At that point you can question whether he got that job because people began to mutter about affirmative action.

Why would I assume that a person is qualified when I have reason to believe they may not be?

It's a matter of reserving judgement vs. making an assumption. The assumption of having gotten the job because of skills or qualifications is not safe with certain groups because I KNOW that these groups are discriminated in favor of. It has nothing to do with whether the person know about it or not. It has only to do with my own evaluation of their competency. The default for a person belonging to a group not likely to have been discriminated in favor of is "qualified". The default for a person belonging ot a group likely to have been discriminated in favor of is "qualifications unknown". I've given some examples of groups likely to be discriminated in favor of.

Attractive People - only when in a position to spend a lot of time (especially alone with) the boss, and only when the Boss and employee are of opposite gender (more likely with male boss and female secretary than the other way around) or same gender in case of gay boss.
Family
Certain Religious Affiliations - only when the hiring committee has the same religious leaning.
Friends - when the boss had a buddy he knew prior to the buddy being hired.
Race - when it matters for the image of the company or when people are fearing the appearance of racism or when people honestly think that white people have something to pay for.

Only the last case applies to university admissions. But in all cases where I suspect the person was hired for a reason other than merit, I'll suspend my own assumption of competency. For the record, it usually only takes a few technical discussions with a collegue for me to figure out whether they know what they're doing.

 

[Swift]

But still, what's the point? That's exactly how everyone thinks. I don't think someone is competent until they prove otherwise. Period. So, that doesn't make me a racist, it makes me a realist.

 

[barryl85]

Ok guys, I would appreciate your opinion on myself.

I live in Central Scotland, now if anyone from Central Scotland can confirm this there is a very low percentage of black people live here (there are however lots of cultures. e.g. indians, pakistani's, chinese... etc), when you see a black person walking down the street people tend to stare sometimes, maybe they dont have any misjudged feelings toward black people but its just because they see something their not used to (i know this sounds wierd but its true).

Ok here's the thing - i work all over the UK as the company i work for (CEMEX) has a project going on to standardise the company, now i have worked in Birmingham, Oldbury, Rugby, Colchester and Norwich in the past few months, and i am genuinly scared if i see a group of black teenagers hanging around the streets at night, particularly with the way they swagger as they walk and wear hooded tops, i'm not saying white teens are innocent of this but i am not generally as scared of them.

Am i being racist, i mean i have worked with and made friends with black people and i do not have any problems with the way a person looks, were all human!

Is this maybe because of what i am and am not used to seeing on a daily basis?

I wouldnt like to think of myself being racist.

 

[Poverty]

Its because of the image the media has portrayed of the average black male. They have instilled it into you, to be afraid or scared of them.

Your not racist at all, what your feeling is normal, I can get it too, Id rather walk past a large group of white people males than that of black males.

Black people also feel what you do, as my friends will generally avoid pubs in white areas, as theyre not comfortable with theyre surrondings. Another thing which the media has put into theyre heads.

 

[Danoff]

Ok guys, I would appreciate your opinion on myself.

I live in Central Scotland, now if anyone from Central Scotland can confirm this there is a very low percentage of black people live here (there are however lots of cultures. e.g. indians, pakistani's, chinese... etc), when you see a black person walking down the street people tend to stare sometimes, maybe they dont have any misjudged feelings toward black people but its just because they see something their not used to (i know this sounds wierd but its true).

Ok here's the thing - i work all over the UK as the company i work for (CEMEX) has a project going on to standardise the company, now i have worked in Birmingham, Oldbury, Rugby, Colchester and Norwich in the past few months, and i am genuinly scared if i see a group of black teenagers hanging around the streets at night, particularly with the way they swagger as they walk and wear hooded tops, i'm not saying white teens are innocent of this but i am not generally as scared of them.

Am i being racist, i mean i have worked with and made friends with black people and i do not have any problems with the way a person looks, were all human!

Is this maybe because of what i am and am not used to seeing on a daily basis?

I wouldnt like to think of myself being racist.

Pretend for a moment that you saw a group of white teenagers wearing exactly the same clothes with exactly the same hair style as the black kids you're afraid of. If you wouldn't fear the white kids then you're a racist.

If you saw 10 black guys walking down the street at night in suits would you be afraid of them (not that white teenagers walk around at night in suits)?

 

[barryl85]

Pretend for a moment that you saw a group of white teenagers wearing exactly the same clothes with exactly the same hair style as the black kids you're afraid of. If you wouldn't fear the white kids then you're a racist.

I supose........

If you saw 10 black guys walking down the street at night in suits would you be afraid of them (not that white teenagers walk around at night in suits)?

Not in the slightest!

 

[Danoff]

Not in the slightest!

Yea, my point is that it's likely the tatoos, hair, clothes, size, and even attitudes (as observed in body language and what you can hear from their conversation) that you're afraid of more than the skin color.