Am I Becoming Racist? (rant)

[Danoff]

I've worked with NASCAR and still work in a predominantly Caucasian work force

That's just pure simple statistics. Getting called names isn't, but working in a predominantly Caucasian work force is something you're going to have to expect out of any institution that hires a perfect percentage of white and black people based on population statistics. You're in a MINORITY which means that there aren't as many of you as white people. So when you look around and see a lot of white people, realize that it may have more to do with simple numbers than racism.

Danoff, from what I see you seem to have grown a fear that you are somehow being discriminated against because of your color which I assume is white.

No. I don't fear being discriminated against, I just don't like it. One can dislike something without fearing it. I don't like food with lots of curry for example, but I don't fear it.

OK, I'll explain it like this. This world isn't fair. Affirmative action was created because of unfairness in the workplace.

Yes, I'm aware that the world isn't fair. But increasing that unfairness institutionally isn't a good idea. Racism is a bad thing no matter the intention or reason - even when I do it, even though I have a good reason.

Affirmative action is the lesser of the 2 evils. The 2 evils are:

- unqualified blacks getting jobs ahead of better qualified whites
- all white businesses etc

Ah the old false dilemma logical fallacy. These are the two options, nevermind that they aren't the only two, pick one!

Look, colored people, even with affirmative action, are still at a disadvantage. Compared to whites more of them grow up in poverty and more of them attend bad schools etc so their chances to succeed are already low.

America is the most upwardly mobile nation on the planet. We have more people work their way out of poverty here than any other place in the world. Poverty is not an excuse for lack of success... not here.

Another way to look at it is like this. Look at NASCAR's drive for diversity program. They have Bill Lester drive in certain races to try to equal the races out and give colored people a chance. Was there more qualified whites to drive than Bill Lester? Yes, but NASCAR gave him a chance over other people to try and equalize things. Are you going to get upset with them to do that?

Hmmm... am I going to be upset with them for being racist? Why yes.

Mr. Danoff, racism exists today and is still a very serious problem and always will be.

I know, especially since AA has perpetuated it.

By you being white I'm sure this caused you not to notice racist incidents or you stayed away from colored people enough not to see racist incidents, but believe me, racism is there.

Nice. You (falsely) stereotype me twice in the same sentence.

You say you've only seen a few times when racism happened but you also noted you grew up in an all white school.

I said I grew up in an ALMOST all white school. Which I would think is a perfect place to see some serious racism.

Maybe you should talk with black people who have been around a while. you may be surprised to hear some of the stories they have to tell.

I do, but the black people that I work with aren't so hung up on their race.

 

[TeamLosiRacer]

Oooohh. I'm sorry, London isnt the whole world.
So maybe in your vastly different culture I'd stand out as an American. But where I wouldnt stand out as a tourist, where that dress is common, they'd arrest me. why? because normal people don't stand around and watch people stab each other.


I could care less if they have their own awards show, hell I hold the LeadSlead#2's best performances awards, and I always win. and that makes me a loser.
I DO care about negro colleges, where white people can't go. and black people don't have to try to accept white people - it's complete segragation, tell me it's not.

and your still comparing hosting awards and such to religions.
do you think a religious holiday is the same as a workplace, college, or anything similar, denying a race?
well, if the Muslims don't like other religious holidays, they're entitled to that, but to enforce non-celebration of those holidays, they must be willing to stop celebrating their own. that's the way equality works. if I can't have it, neither can you, and vice versa.

Its been very interesting reading these 10 pages of debate. Espcially as a young black man. I have my own personal feelings about AA, but I withold them at the moment.

I did want to clear up a mistake that caught my eye. LeadSled brought up the point of all black schools & colleges.

I am afraid that there is no such thing as all black colleges. You are referring to Historically black colleges, which allow people of all races to attend, and as best I can find have never had a policy not allowing white students. It was simply the fact that white students for a great period of time did not want to go to a school such as historically black colleges. Also the Historically black colleges are the evolution of schools for black students when they were not allowed to attend white grade schools.

I also fail how you say an organization such as the KKK which has been the source of numerous acts of violence and murders is equal to institutions which educate large groups of black people as well as people of other races.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

Its been very interesting reading these 10 pages of debate. Espcially as a young black man. I have my own personal feelings about AA, but I withold them at the moment.

I did want to clear up a mistake that caught my eye. LeadSled brought up the point of all black schools & colleges.

I am afraid that there is no such thing as all black colleges. You are referring to Historically black colleges, which allow people of all races to attend, and as best I can find have never had a policy not allowing white students. It was simply the fact that white students for a great period of time did not want to go to a school such as historically black colleges. Also the Historically black colleges are the evolution of schools for black students when they were not allowed to attend white grade schools.

I also fail how you say an organization such as the KKK which has been the source of numerous acts of violence and murders is equal to institutions which educate large groups of black people as well as people of other races.

easy now, I never said they have a right to violence. not at all. but they have the right to their protests, rallys, and their orginization, just as much as anything else, like the black panthers.
Straight to the point, I am in no way saying I agree with the KKK, or that I even think they are comparable to any of the mentioned groups, or anything of the sort, the point was simply, they have just as much right to it, that is, the non-violent portions they do.
I would say sadly, but it's actually a good thing, because, if we took it away, we'd have to take the same rights away from everybody else.
and the same goes for anti-gay groups as well, even though that's not about race.

Now, what you say about black colleges makes sense, and I have no reason to doubt it's truthfulness, so unless someone else proves it false, I'll assume it's true.
BUT, that still leaves out the UNCF (united negro college foundation)
Granted, I think this has a very good intention, BUT (again), like AA, only causes more seperation, and segragation. And also, just the name, or implication of an all-black school, or charity, even if it includes others, still has that strong implication, so even if an all-black college allows whites, I would never have thought I could go there. why? "well that's an all-black school"
Making special rules, or having special organizations will never be the answer to racisim, even if it makes a racist employer hire someone, it's just going to breed more hate, and that's what we're trying to get rid of.

And if I remember correctly, 👍 to everything L4S and Danoff said in their last posts, along with yours

 

[TeamLosiRacer]

I can understand what your are saying about organizations such as UNCF and HBCU's. But i will simply agree to disagree with your views.

 

[DUNDA]

Im a South African indian, and I just wana tell you about something than I have experienced.

My girlfriend, who was doing her masters in a top univertsity, qualified cumlada in industrial psychology last year. In her class of 15 there were nine blacks(who all averaged around 60%, not one above 70%). The rest were mixed races(mostly Indian and White, who all scored over 80%, yes all of them). Mid way through their masters, they were given eleven applications for internship at numerous companies throughtout the country. All the students applied for those positions. At the end of the year, eleven students were selected. Nine blacks and one White and one Indian(yes all the blacks were selected). And the rest are left scrounging around for any other available positions.

So what does this tell you, or what does this indicate.
I strongly believe thats its no more the best man for the job, Its the blackest man for the job.
I strongly believe no matter how well you do in your studies in this country, it means absolute jack if your not black.
Well my girlfriend is eventually doing her internship, but you know what, she's getting paid, at least half of what her black peers are recieving.

What do you think, am I being racist. Well I dont think so, I believe that affermative action is not bad(if it is controlled), but you know what, its completly out of control, in my opinion.

Everything I have stated above, has been researched, we eventually took the matter up with the board of education.
Buts thats a whole other story.

 

[Poverty]

^^Its completely different in South Africa than it is in the States or the UK, because of apartheid etc where the white ruled and the black were dirt. Now that things have have switched to the power being with the black people you and the whites are facing the reprecussions of a nation fresh from apartheid were blacks were nothing. Add that to the fact that the blacks used to be the slaves of the whites, and the white people came and stole the land from theyre ancestors you guys will get unfair treatment.

Its a viscious circle, started by your ancestors, although I dont know how indians ended up in africa and some west indian countries, but originally the africans invited us over (us being whites) and we enslaved them, just like how the native americans got killed off and the aboriginess.

Dare I say it, I wouldnt expect any different from south africa, its going to take along time for people to foget. So just like how you are pissed about less qualified blacks getting the jobs making you arguably racist, the blacks are still pissed about the treatment they recieved.

Another thing to think off, are the black students well off? What was theyre standard of schooling, as results dont always say everything.

What im saying maybe they only got 60% because theyre schools were of a poor standard, or the school didnt have the right resources, and is no real indication of theyre respective intelligence.

Its like in athletics, americans dominate over west indian countries because they have alot better resources, leading alot of them to move abroad to train, and better themselves.

 

[FoolKiller]

Another thing to think off, are the black students well off? What was theyre standard of schooling, as results dont always say everything.

What im saying maybe they only got 60% because theyre schools were of a poor standard, or the school didnt have the right resources, and is no real indication of theyre respective intelligence.

If we are going to have public schools then they need to all be equal or give people a chance to change to a better school. The fact that schools are not equal creates another AA issue.

This allows colleges to try and justify their AA admissions standards, despite the fact that a poor white farming community student does not get those same advantages or that one of the black students given preference may have actually attended a rich private school.

Yep, sounds fair to me! [/SARCASM] Affirmative action based soley on race does not work properly, not even by the lesser of two evils argument.

 

[Swift]

^^Its completely different in South Africa than it is in the States or the UK, because of apartheid etc where the white ruled and the black were dirt. Now that things have have switched to the power being with the black people you and the whites are facing the reprecussions of a nation fresh from apartheid were blacks were nothing. Add that to the fact that the blacks used to be the slaves of the whites, and the white people came and stole the land from theyre ancestors you guys will get unfair treatment.

Its a viscious circle, started by your ancestors, although I dont know how indians ended up in africa and some west indian countries, but originally the africans invited us over (us being whites) and we enslaved them, just like how the native americans got killed off and the aboriginess.

Dare I say it, I wouldnt expect any different from south africa, its going to take along time for people to foget. So just like how you are pissed about less qualified blacks getting the jobs making you arguably racist, the blacks are still pissed about the treatment they recieved.

Another thing to think off, are the black students well off? What was theyre standard of schooling, as results dont always say everything.

What im saying maybe they only got 60% because theyre schools were of a poor standard, or the school didnt have the right resources, and is no real indication of theyre respective intelligence.

You contradicted yourself. If the blacks are "in power" why would the majority of the black people be going to substandard schools?(assuming they are government regulated).

Also, taking blacks just because they are black makes the current people every bit as racist as the former aparthide reign. "You've got a 65%, meh, you black so it's cool. You've got an 80%, are you black? No? We'll call you..."
Yeah, that makes them SO much better then aparthide.

Danda, that's seriously messed up and I hope the case goes well.

 

[Poverty]

I have contradicted myself at all. There all still many manly white ghettos. Its not as if now that the theyre government is mainly black, that blacks have taken the whites houses and wealth etc. Plus I believe that there are alot more black people in south africa than whites so no contradicting.

Its not perfect but alot better than apartheide, and many africans belive they need to do so to even out the decades of injustice, and to get as many black proffesionals trained as they can, for theyre country to prosper, so that they can open business, and become teachers etc and help to raise the standard of living for everyone, instead of the white (whom are usual rich) staying rich, and the black staying poor.

 

[Swift]

Its not perfect but alot better than apartheide, and many africans belive they need to do so to even out the decades of injustice, and to get as many black proffesionals trained as they can, for theyre country to prosper, so that they can open business, and become teachers etc and help to raise the standard of living for everyone, instead of the white (whom are usual rich) staying rich, and the black staying poor.

ROFL!!! Let me get this straight. They want a bunch of unqualified, undereducated black people being the professionals of the country so they can be open for business? How is that even remotely logical? Also, what does that teach the young black people in South Africa? Just slide by and you'll be fine...YOU'RE BLACK!

THIS is the kind of garbage that has Danoff posting this thread in the first place.

 

[Poverty]

No one has said anything of the sort. Your being ridiculous.

 

[Swift]

No one has said anything of the sort. Your being ridiculous.

You just said

Its not perfect but alot better than apartheide, and many africans belive they need to do so to even out the decades of injustice, and to get as many black proffesionals trained as they can, for theyre country to prosper, so that they can open business, and become teachers etc and help to raise the standard of living for everyone, instead of the white (whom are usual rich) staying rich, and the black staying poor.

• How is that not giving blacks a definite advantage over anyone else?
• How is that not showing the young people that all they have to do is just slide by?
• How is that not as racist as the aparthide theology?

 

[Famine]

many africans belive they need to do so to even out the decades of injustice, and to get as many black proffesionals trained as they can, for theyre country to prosper

Worrying about training professionals ought to be the first priority. Worrying about the colour of their skin should not be A priority at all.

 

[Poverty]

You just said

• How is that not giving blacks a definite advantage over anyone else?
• How is that not showing the young people that all they have to do is just slide by?
• How is that not as racist as the aparthide theology?

1. It is.
2. It does, but to graduate from university they will have to work hard, so no sliding there.
3.Its not as racist as aparthide because whites and blacks work, eat, sleep and learn together.

Hence this being invalid

Let me get this straight. They want a bunch of unqualified, undereducated black people being the professionals of the country so they can be open for business?

 

[Famine]

2. It does, but to graduate from university they will have to work hard, so no sliding there.

But not as hard as their white peers.

3.Its not as racist as aparthide because whites and blacks work, eat, sleep and learn together.

But it IS racist.

Not giving a Chinese man a job because he's Chinese is racist. Lynching a black man because he's black is racist. There's no "little bit" racist here.

Incidentally, if you don't think some of the pro-black, anti-white policies in action on the African continent are "as racist as" apartheid, try being white in Zimbabwe.

 

[Poverty]

Zimbabwes own way of taking retributions?

 

[Famine]

If by "retribution" you mean taking land, burning property, raping and murder, all sponsored by, and carried out by, the state, then yes.

 

[Poverty]

well the land was theyres to begin with and we did everything that to them that they are doing now, not that im saying it okay.

 

[Danoff]

well the land was theyres to begin with and we did everything that to them that they are doing now, not that im saying it okay.

Sure sounds like you're saying it's ok.

 

[Swift]

Hence this being invalid

Let me get this straight. They want a bunch of unqualified, undereducated black people being the professionals of the country so they can be open for business?

How is that invalid? If the black people are getting the oppurtunities with the interships regardless of grade standing?

Also, since when is "retrobution" an acceptable form of racisim?

 

[Poverty]

you dont know if its regardless of grade standing.

 

[Swift]

you dont know if its regardless of grade standing.

Yes I do.

Im a South African indian, and I just wana tell you about something than I have experienced.

My girlfriend, who was doing her masters in a top univertsity, qualified cumlada in industrial psychology last year. In her class of 15 there were nine blacks(who all averaged around 60%, not one above 70%). The rest were mixed races(mostly Indian and White, who all scored over 80%, yes all of them). Mid way through their masters, they were given eleven applications for internship at numerous companies throughtout the country. All the students applied for those positions. At the end of the year, eleven students were selected. Nine blacks and one White and one Indian(yes all the blacks were selected). And the rest are left scrounging around for any other available positions.

 

[Poverty]

no you dont because for all we know, to get an intership the minium grade at to be 50%. Maybe the people with the lower scores got the internship as the people organising it thought it would benefit them more.

 

[FoolKiller]

no you dont because for all we know, to get an intership the minium grade at to be 50%. Maybe the people with the lower scores got the internship as the people organising it thought it would benefit them more.

So a business decided to risk losing money out of the kindness of their hearts so they could help the dumb kids that would be less productive?

 

[Poverty]

So a business decided to risk losing money out of the kindness of their hearts so they could help the dumb kids that would be less productive?

I dont think interns will be in a position were they were able to lose the company money, and they wont exactly be dumb because they are in Uni after all.

Maybe the white kids with theyre 90% didnt get jobs because of a superiority attitude, or they just didnt fit in with the company, or the employer just didnt like them. Its not all 1 + 2 = 3

 

[Swift]

Yes, they would be losing money because to a business, time IS money.

And who would consistanly take people with lower grades and justify it by race? Oh, I know, a racist!

 

[Dave A]

No it's not but when you see a consistent trend it becomes pretty obvious what it is, I have friends from Africa and I've worked with Africans I've heared plenty of stories about what goes on in some areas there. Poverty you really need to step back and take a look at what your saying. You DO NOT combat racism with racism, attempting to combat racism will not get rid of racism rather it will become a catalyst to breed it. Theres plenty of comments in this very thread that prove that point. Forget the lesser of two eviles between AA and racism in the early mid 1900s because they arn't the only two options. The law should be attempting to have everyone on a level field. Not blacks were opressed by our forfarthers many decades ago so we'll make stupid laws to favour them and oppress the whites instead because then another cycle of racism starts. At the end of the day you will probably never eliminate racism, but of all the organisations and people out there the governments and ruling bodies should not be promoting it in any form.

 

[Poverty]

I dont think we have enough evidence given from members in similiar areas to be able to see a trend.

 

[Swift]

I dont think we have enough evidence given from members in similiar areas to be able to see a trend.

It doesn't matter. If it's practiced at all, then it's a racist policy/practice/code/procedure or whatever you want to call it.

It would be difficult to get exact numbers of people that were hired because of AA. That doesn't make it any less of a racist policy.

 

[87chevy]

to the OP:

you are correct. Affirmative action was a bad plan from day 1. I believe it was concieved with good intentions. I honestly believe that Affirmative action has made racists out of millions of people who wouldn't have been without it.

However, there is no excuse for racism. I hate racism. Yes, hate. It drives me crazy that there is still so much racism in America. I live in a very self segregated town. Tallahassee, Florida is still stuck in the 50's in some ways.

And yes Danoff your becoming racist. Your misplacing your distaste for a broken system. Your blaming the victims.

PS. Let me also addin that there is plenty of racism from both sides here where I live. I hate all racism, not just White on Black racism.