America - The Official Thread

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Yard_Sale
It’s hard to box in the entire Republican Party constituency, as a bunch of hill-billy psychos over a bunch of documents.
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Republicans use their own Twitter accounts to demonstrate they're hill-billy psychos, and still their devout forgive them. If I were a democrat, I'd be going for what would result in the harshest possible sentence in court, and let the electorate work it out themselves - can't reason with stupid.
 
Well dumb folks like that have to learn things the hard way. See you can't get by with anything in court especially when you're in front of a judge and being watched by the bailiff/jury.
 
Yard_Sale
The only reason I keep bringing up January 6th, is because this day in age, the narrative is more important and influential than the facts. I think the democrats would be able to get much more campaign mileage out of January 6th then they could out of the mishandling of classified documents. It’s hard to box in the entire Republican Party constituency, as a bunch of hill-billy psychos over a bunch of documents.

At least that’s what I’d be thinking if I was a Democratic strategist
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I know this is hard to believe, but what if this was just about justice and protecting the system rather than about politics and power? Just throwing it out there as a possibility.
 
Imari
Also, I think you underestimate the seriousness of mishandling classified documents. For normal people, mishandling BOXES of classified documents is go to gaol and never come out territory.
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It would also be better if it wasn't Trump. Knowing Trump's nature, using said confidential information for personal gain is definitely on the table.

His lawyer has also signed a letter before saying there is no more classified information at Mar-a-lago.
www.cnn.com

Trump lawyer claimed no classified material was at Mar-a-Lago in signed letter to Justice Department

One of former President Donald Trump's attorneys signed a letter in June asserting that there was no more classified information stored at Trump's Mar-a-Lago residence, according to two sources familiar with the matter.
www.cnn.com www.cnn.com
 
Imari
I know this is hard to believe, but what if this was just about justice and protecting the system rather than about politics and power? Just throwing it out there as a possibility.
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I’m with you, and like I posted a few pages back, I hope this is in fact the case. As a registered Republican, I don’t want Trump running. Waaaaaay too much baggage surrounding him.

But taking into account how the FBI handled the whole Russian collusion thing, it’s not much of a stretch to question the motivation on this. Especially if they were supposedly at Mar-a-whatever in June looking for stuff already, and one of his lawyers supposedly stated on record there was nothing else. New information can always come to light after this, that necessitated a search and that’s totally reasonable.

I hope all of this classified document stuff is cut and dry and a slam dunk. If it ends up becoming a Hillary Clinton gray area thing, then it’s going to be tough to convince moderates on both sides of the isle that a full on raid in this political climate was worth it.

The hardcore left and hardcore right are going to think what they’re going to think on this, regardless.

Hopefully details keep trickling out at a faster pace than GT7 content 😂
 
Scaff
The details of this are a matter of public record, its not really that grey at all, not to mention an utterly different scale of issue.

However Trump testifying for 11 hours without pleading the 5th isn't going to happen.
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I will agree with you that this is an entirely different scale. It’s been years since I watched, or cared about the whole e-mail investigation… but if I remember correctly, Comey and team came to the conclusion that she didn’t deliberately mishandle classified information by extension of her staff; or however it was worded. If Trump’s lawyers could somehow successfully argue the same thing (whatever that looks like), then that’s where I can see this whole raid being a black eye for the FBI. That’s all I meant by the whole “gray area” comment.

For the sake of the country’s sanity, I hope that whatever the FBI has come across is cut and dry and clear as day. Last thing this country needs is more political mental gymnastics
 
Yard_Sale
But taking into account how the FBI handled the whole Russian collusion thing, it’s not much of a stretch to question the motivation on this. Especially if they were supposedly at Mar-a-whatever in June looking for stuff already, and one of his lawyers supposedly stated on record there was nothing else. New information can always come to light after this, that necessitated a search and that’s totally reasonable.
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Right, but that seems a bit sketchy to have a lawyer declare there's nothing else there and then the FBI finds out there is. Given Trump's low ethical boundaries, it seems more plausible that it's shenanigans on his side than a politically targeted attacked. These days the Republicans make everything seem political.
 
Imari
I know this is hard to believe, but what if this was just about justice and protecting the system rather than about politics and power? Just throwing it out there as a possibility.
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Yep. It's been reported that these documents were requested returned back months ago; if that's the case, this whole thing might've been completely avoidable.
Yard_Sale
But taking into account how the FBI handled the whole Russian collusion thing, it’s not much of a stretch to question the motivation on this.
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Except remember when Trump fired Comey in 2017 after that, & put in Christopher Wray, the current Director of the FBI?


Yeah, it's a big stretch. Even funnier watching Trump go on Truth Social complaining about the corruption of the FBI when his guy is still head honcho.
Yard_Sale
Especially if they were supposedly at Mar-a-whatever in June looking for stuff already, and one of his lawyers supposedly stated on record there was nothing else.
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Because they had already requested the documents be returned. Trump's lawyer lied (unsurprisingly).
Yard_Sale
New information can always come to light after this, that necessitated a search and that’s totally reasonable.
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Yes, like the fact that the documents were not returned, so the FBI had to go & get them.
Yard_Sale
I hope all of this classified document stuff is cut and dry and a slam dunk. If it ends up becoming a Hillary Clinton gray area thing, then it’s going to be tough to convince moderates on both sides of the isle that a full on raid in this political climate was worth it.

The hardcore left and hardcore right are going to think what they’re going to think on this, regardless.
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"Both sides" stances in this is just a hard cope stance from Republicans. He took documents he was not supposed to have. He's argued they were planted & in the next breath, said, "Well, actually, I declassified them before taking them".

Declassified records months ago that would later be planted is a defense only Trump is stupid enough to make because he has a long history of basically telling on himself. The fact Rand Paul is calling for the repeal of the Espionage Act shows there's a legit fear of that being committed.
 
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Yard_Sale
but if I remember correctly, Comey and team came to the conclusion that she didn’t deliberately mishandle classified information by extension of her staff; or however it was worded.
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Nope, no one deliberately mishandled it, even the 'she deleted them' was utter nonsense as well.

However, Trump threw a tantrum about how it went, lowered the bar for it being criminal and upped the penalty for it.

Then promptly broke it himself.
 
Uoazy4c6oph91.jpg

Garrett Ziegler, who recently went on a sexist tear against former White House colleagues, took to Telegram to post the personal information of men he identified as agents.

“This is one of the two feds who signed the ‘Receipt for Property’ form, which detailed—at a very high level—the fishing expedition that the FBI performed at Mar-a-Lago,” Ziegler said on both Truth Social and Telegram.

The former Trump administration staffer that worked under White House trade adviser Peter Navarro further listed out the FBI agents’ date of birth, work emails and linked to alleged family members’ social media accounts.

“Hope he doesn’t get a good night’s sleep for the rest of 2022,” Ziegler wrote on Truth Social, responding to another Truth Social user’s photos of one of the alleged FBI officials who signed off on the inventory receipts on the warrant.
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Garrett Ziegler posted the personal info of purported FBI agents—along with links to one of their kids’ social media accounts.
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www.thedailybeast.com

Ex-Trump Aide Sics MAGA Fans on Alleged FBI Agents’ Families

Garrett Ziegler posted the personal info of purported FBI agents—along with links to one of their kids’ social media accounts.
www.thedailybeast.com

The party of protecting kids, ya'll. Hope this guy rests in **** when his time comes.
 
TB
Going after the guy who was just doing what he was instructed to do is one thing. Going after that guy's kids is ****ing low.

What an absolute piece of trash.
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He's afraid of the guy who actually is doing his job so he is pushing his luck that the courts will claim "free speech bro" when the kid gets hurt.
 
I voted for Biden - and I don't regret it - but I hope he doesn't run in 2024, and I hope Trump sits 2024 out as well. (Or any other future presidential primaries/elections, for that matter.) They're both too old, at the least. I also think too many of my fellow Americans are extremely politically-illiterate insofar that they over-emphasize what the executive branch can do. The judicial and legislative branches? "Big deal." Your state's respective branches of government? "Meh." Your very town/city's politics? "Yawn," they'll go. And that's to say nothing of international politics and geopolitics, which I've been interested in thanks to my Navy vet dad and playing Ace Combat.

I love my country and especially my state, but damn, some of my fellow citizens can be so stupid sometimes, it makes you really wonder. Like here we have inflation, something that is affected by events spanning both the public and private sector as well as beyond our borders, and what do people do? They blame the prez. I saw Jeff Dunham a couple weeks ago, thinking he'd be like how I saw him about a decade ago, but I think he's given in to a more "conservative" audience, if you get what I mean. I swear, the guy kept whining about inflation and political correctness. Was I watching a comedian, or Tucker Carlson? And besides, Ahmed the Dead Terrorist seems a bit out of date. I mean, his bit was the 2nd-funniest bit - with Peanut/Jose taking the cake - but I feel like Ahmed was more topical about two decades ago, if you could call him topical at any point. But I digress.
 
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You know honestly Obama was the best damn president that ran for 8 solid years, he never started riffraff and war **** like Trump/Biden did. McCain probably would've been a good president also. That's my opinion, I know some people may not agree with what I'm saying but I'm telling the truth and speaking out!
 
Chris30
You know honestly Obama was the best damn president that ran for 8 solid years, he never started riffraff and war **** like Trump/Biden did
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Obama very much ordered military action:
www.latimes.com

President Obama, who hoped to sow peace, instead led the nation in war

President Obama came to office vowing to end America's foreign wars and take the country off its permanent war footing. He leaves a very different legacy as he prepares to hand his commander-in-chief responsibilities to Donald Trump.
www.latimes.com www.latimes.com
 
ROAD_DOGG33J
It would also be better if it wasn't Trump. Knowing Trump's nature, using said confidential information for personal gain is definitely on the table.
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I think if any politician was found to be treating classified documents in the way that Trump apparently has, that would raise significant red flags. I can think of nobody who if I had heard of them doing this I'd be absolutely comfortable saying "no worries, I'm sure they weren't doing this for personal gain".
Yard_Sale
As a registered Republican, I don’t want Trump running. Waaaaaay too much baggage surrounding him.
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Is the problem that Trump has baggage? Or is the problem that Trump is the sort of person who creates a bunch of baggage? Because the baggage seems to be entirely based on his past actions, and at that point describing it as "baggage" seems kind of dismissive when it's really just "this is who the guy is and how he acts, and a lot of people even within his own party are super uncomfortable with that".
Yard_Sale
Especially if they were supposedly at Mar-a-whatever in June looking for stuff already, and one of his lawyers supposedly stated on record there was nothing else. New information can always come to light after this, that necessitated a search and that’s totally reasonable.
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I saw this timeline that seems to be correct as far as I can tell:
  • Jan 2022: 15 boxes are returned to NARA (the archives was well aware documents were missing, and discovered classified documents within those 15 boxes)
  • Spring 2022: Subpoena for additional documents (i.e. explicit requests to return everything)
  • June 3, 2022: FBI officials visit Mar-A-Lago
  • June 8, 2022: FBI request an additional padlock for remaining documents to be installed
  • June 22, 2022: FBI subpoenas surveillance footage
Note at that point the FBI was probably doing an assessment of who was accessing the documents and damage evaluations. Allegedly the footage showed boxes being moved AFTER the subpoeana and padlock installation. The latter would be of utmost concern and probable cause. The subpoeana was not complied with, and the FBI was likely actively investigating at this point.
  • August 8th: FBI executes search warrant
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It all sort of makes sense to me, and the FBI isn't just going to storm in on an ex-President without asking nicely first. Like with Hillary, there's no point assuming malice in what could simply be incompetence. Which they apparently did ask nicely (which got them only part of what they knew was missing), then they apparently subpoena'd him (aka asking nicely on the record for the rest). Eventually once they know that there's stuff there and it becomes clear that Trump isn't just going to hand it back even when "asked" legally they have to get a warrant and go take it by force.

None of that is a massive deal by itself, but it is kinda weird that an ex-President of the United States wouldn't surrender classified documents to his own government when requested. The FBI is run by the guy he appointed and he's ex-POTUS - if there's a reasonable explanation, even if it's "we ****ed up", they're gonna softball him.

Instead he's doing everything he can to resist this and making it all look super suspect - not helped by stuff like the Mueller Report.
Yard_Sale
If Trump’s lawyers could somehow successfully argue the same thing (whatever that looks like), then that’s where I can see this whole raid being a black eye for the FBI.
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Why would that be a black eye for the FBI? Because they investigated something that was on the face of it a possible violation of the national interest? That seems like exactly the sort of thing they should be doing.

Do you see the Hillary emails as a black eye for the FBI too because they didn't end up charging her? It was a complex situation that very clearly should have been investigated at the bare minimum. Even if it was not ultimately determined to be criminal, it identified a bunch of potential flaws in the way that high level government officials handled information and a bunch of ways in which the security of information of national interest could be improved. That seems like an excellent use of the FBI's time and resources.

Investigating political figures seems fraught because everyone wants to turn it into a personal attack. The truth is that these people are supposed to serve the country. Review and oversight should be part of the expectation.
Chris30
You know honestly Obama was the best damn president that ran for 8 solid years, he never started riffraff and war **** like Trump/Biden did.
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Lol, what? Trump and Biden started more wars than Obama? What war did Biden start? Ukraine vs. Russia?
 
Imari
Lol, what? Trump and Biden started more wars than Obama? What war did Biden start? Ukraine vs. Russia?
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The Ukraine v Russia conflict was first initiated in the Orange Revolution. It was a bipartisan operation with GW Bush in the White House.

The Democratic party's National Democratic Institute, the Republican party's International Republican Institute, the US state department and USAid are the main agencies involved in these grassroots campaigns as well as the Freedom House NGO and billionaire George Soros's open society institute.
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US pollsters and professional consultants are hired to organise focus groups and use psephological data to plot strategy.

The usually fractious oppositions have to be united behind a single candidate if there is to be any chance of unseating the regime. That leader is selected on pragmatic and objective grounds, even if he or she is anti-American.

In Serbia, US pollsters Penn, Schoen and Berland Associates discovered that the assassinated pro-western opposition leader, Zoran Djindjic, was reviled at home and had no chance of beating Milosevic fairly in an election. He was persuaded to take a back seat to the anti-western Vojislav Kostunica, who is now Serbian prime minister.

In Belarus, US officials ordered opposition parties to unite behind the dour, elderly trade unionist, Vladimir Goncharik, because he appealed to much of the Lukashenko constituency.

Officially, the US government spent $41m (£21.7m) organising and funding the year-long operation to get rid of Milosevic from October 1999. In Ukraine, the figure is said to be around $14m.

Apart from the student movement and the united opposition, the other key element in the democracy template is what is known as the "parallel vote tabulation", a counter to the election-rigging tricks beloved of disreputable regimes.


There are professional outside election monitors from bodies such as the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe, but the Ukrainian poll, like its predecessors, also featured thousands of local election monitors trained and paid by western groups.

Freedom House and the Democratic party's NDI helped fund and organise the "largest civil regional election monitoring effort" in Ukraine, involving more than 1,000 trained observers. They also organised exit polls. On Sunday night those polls gave Mr Yushchenko an 11-point lead and set the agenda for much of what has followed.
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www.theguardian.com

Ian Traynor: US campaign behind the turmoil in Kiev

Analysis: Ukraine, traditionally passive in its politics, has been mobilised by young democracy activists and will never be the same again.
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com


IMHO, The Maidan Revolution was pulled off with the guidance and support of the Obama administration, principally including Hillary Clinton, Victoria Nuland, Samantha Power and Susan Rice.
 
Liquid
This conflict goes back to before the USA was even founded. The USA may be a significant background presence in it now but it is not the defining factor.
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You should at least try to understand why the US is pouring billions into the fight, and Europeans are undergoing near-death experiences in cost of living, energy and environment. Maybe you should consider making peace with the idea of being sacrificed on the altar of a greater good.
 
Dotini
Maybe you should consider making peace with the idea of being sacrificed on the altar of a greater good.
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Maybe the invading Russians should go to hell and suffer for all eternity. If Europe gives a millimetre, Putin and friends will definitely want more.
 
Dotini
You should at least try to understand why the US is pouring billions into the fight, and Europeans are undergoing near-death experiences in cost of living, energy and environment. Maybe you should consider making peace with the idea of being sacrificed on the altar of a greater good.
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OAaRV.gif


In typical fashion, nothing to do with my post or the post of yours to which I had replied.
 
Dennisch
Maybe the invading Russians should go to hell and suffer for all eternity. If Europe gives a millimetre, Putin and friends will definitely want more.
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Absolutely 100% correct, brother. Our mission is a rules-based unipolar world on the basis of global democracy and human rights. Would-be multipolar authoritarian regimes must cease to exist.
 
Dotini
Absolutely 100% correct, brother. Our mission is a rules-based unipolar world on the basis of global democracy and human rights. Would-be multipolar authoritarian regimes must cease to exist.
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\post accompanied by a towering score of Hans Zimmer smashing his own face into his pipe organ.
 
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