America - The Official Thread

[Northstar]

Well, things just got interesting.

Is there any proof that it actually records?

From what I have gathered it's not much more than the voice controls found on a growing number of TV's.

Of course if you are that paranoid you can always move into the forest like Buckle from American Dad.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Yeah NSA phone records and other things like Prism aren't all that new, and for those that want to blame Obama (not a fan of him either), you better chalk it up to Bush as well. What scares me is that the continuation of politicians and pundits find this alright...for example

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2013/06/07/greenwald-govt-operates-in-the-dark/?hpt=ac_bn2

 

[DaveTheStalker]

 

[Sanji Himura]

Is there any proof that it actually records?

From what I have gathered it's not much more than the voice controls found on a growing number of TV's.

Of course if you are that paranoid you can always move into the forest like Buckle from American Dad.

Humor is lost upon you.

The whole point is that the NSA, under both Bush and Obama, started the PRISM program. Heck, I was watching on Fox yesterday morning and they were talking about this facility being built in Utah that has enough servers to store five Exabytes of data. That is enough to store enough 16GB iPhones, back to front, from here on Earth to the dark side of the Moon. The problem is that every move that we, in the world, make is suddenly being under attack by a very dangerous US government that is supposed to serve our interest, not rule over us like kings.

That is the very reason why the founders built the separation of powers. They knew that eventually a power grab would be made to destroy our freedom. Power corrupts after all.

No, you missed the scope of that image. If the NSA can build that massive storage facility to track every person in the world, 12 billion people, it is not outside the possibility that MS lied to you because of a FISA order with the Kinect recording your activity and submitting it to the NSA.

 

[Northstar]

Humor is lost upon you.

No, it's not, but I figured it was a good opportunity to ask a legitimate question, which hasn't been answered.

it is not outside the possibility that MS lied to you because of a FISA order with the Kinect recording your activity and submitting it to the NSA.

Of course it's possible, a lot of things are possible, doesn't mean it's a sure thing. It's possible I may be involved in a freak accident involving circus monkeys, but the possibility of that happening means very little.

Also, what about TV's? Seems nobody answers me on that and acts like that text doesn't exist. THEY USE THE SAME DAMN TECH. AS THE XBOX ONE IS GOING TO USE!!!!! Where is the outcry there? Where are the concerns over privacy there? It really seems to me like the Sony bias on this subject is strong as Sony does make TV's that are always listening.(Not just you, I've seen it in the Video Game sections as well)

 

[Sanji Himura]

The difference between TVs and the XBO is that TV's don't require a camera or internet!

 

[Northstar]

The difference between TVs and the XBO is that TV's don't require a camera or internet!

Of course not, but most people do have them connected to the internet as they want to use the streaming/internet capabilities on the TV. Not to mention most are connected to cable/satellite services. Are those people not entitled to their privacy?

I'm still am waiting for proof that the Xbox One actually records anything...

 

[Sanji Himura]

You are not going to get proof. FISA orders are classified. The PRISM order is classified until 2039.

 

[Dotini]

http://www.motherjones.com/politics...tronic-frontier-foundation-fisa-court-opinion

The FISA court, which oversees and signs off on the surveillance, has issued an opinion to the government that the surveillance is unconstitutional. But the Justice department is keeping the opinion secret. Lawsuits are pending.

"...when the government hides court opinions describing unconstitutional government action, America's national security is harmed: not by disclosure of our intelligence capabilities, but through the erosion of our commitment to the rule of law."

 

[FoolKiller]

Do you honestly think that an alternative government would not do the same?

Lets say that Obama had not won the election and Mitt Romney was now President. Do you think he would have shut PRISM down? Or do you think he would have used it?

There also wouldn't be video of Romney saying that these exact actions would stop under his leadership. With Republicans this was their policy. With Obama not doing this was supposed to be his policy. I can also provide video of Obama chastising Bush for attacking the media over leaks. Between this stuff and his drone policy, Obama has proven to be very similar to Republicans on security and foreign policy.

I agree, Republicans don't have much room to talk, but Obama has been caught out in a lot of lies here. I wonder if things started coming to light after they were caught attacking the press is a coincidence or if he's now gone too far and lost his greatest ally. If this is an angry press not holding back then I wonder if the next Democrat candidate will have to denounce Obama's actions.

I'm still am waiting for proof that the Xbox One actually records anything...

You said the humor of a meme wasn't lost on you. So why are you turning a political/current event thread into a debate about gaming consoles, over a picture that said, "What if?"

But if you want to know why the Xbox One was used in the joke: its a camera with a required Internet connection. Combined with the recent NSA news it brings about images of 1984, where cameras were used, not voice-activated TVs. If it were a Sony TV with a built-in camera that required an Internet connection then that would be the joke.

As for proof it actually records; there is none necessary here, because it...was...a...joke.

 

[Sanji Himura]

In case you doubt that the NSA can target you, I have a personal story to tell.

My church, which is literally blocks away, was "tagged" by the IRS for review of our tax exempt status. We retained the status, thankfully, but at the time, we were wondering if they were doing this blanket sweep for reviews. Every church in a ten mile radius was NOT reviewed by the IRS except us. That left my father, the pastor, in sheer disbelief, but we pinned the problem on some construction workers who are doing some road work right in front of the church at the time.

Fast forward to this NSA leak. Now we believe that the NSA got our phone records and the contents of one phone conversation where my father was discussing Obama, and forward it to the Hull character in DC.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

You are not going to get proof. FISA orders are classified. The PRISM order is classified until 2039.

I'm sure after all this coming to light, there will be plenty of Freedom of Info act papers being submitted to get that closer to now.

 

[Northstar]

As for proof it actually records; there is none necessary here, because it...was...a...joke.

As I said, I figured it was a good chance to get an answer to a question I have asked all over the internet yet never get an answer to(that pic may have been a joke, but the claim has been made in serious discussion on frequent occasions).

Sorry for interuppting the Obama/Government bashing with an attempt to have a discussion, it won't happen again.

 

[Keef]

The only politician that would shut PRISM down the moment they got into office would be the extreme civil libertarians - and they're unlikely to get elected in the first place.

They'd be rather likely to win elections if everybody voted for them.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

They'd be rather likely to win elections if everybody voted for them.

Rather if everyone knew they existed to Vote for them, and not only a few weeks before elections when major media decide to talk about them.

Sorry for interuppting the Obama/Government bashing with an attempt to have a discussion, it won't happen again.

Wait, are you trying to say that their is not significant conjecture here and thus is only a summation of Gov't/Obama bashing? Are you trying to say it isn't well placed?

 

[FoolKiller]

As I said, I figured it was a good chance to get an answer to a question I have asked all over the internet yet never get an answer to(that pic may have been a joke, but the claim has been made in serious discussion on frequent occasions).

Sorry for interuppting the Obama/Government bashing with an attempt to have a discussion, it won't happen again.

It's a legitimate question for a gaming topic. I have a lot of questions for both systems. Its not a questionfor an opinions/current events topic.

 

[Mark T]

What if the Government wants to put cameras in your home but said, "the data being monitored isn't recorded or stored in a way that allows it to be compromised," would you feel the same?

From what I have read the tracking implemented by the NSA didn't log the content of the messages/phonecalls. I know that doesn't make it right. Recording video and holding that on file is far more personal than holding who I have called/who I have e-mailed.

Please don't think I approve of PRISM, I just feel like I have always known it was happening, it wasn't a surprise to me when it leaked. I expect that every government in the world is doing exactly the same thing even though it hasn't been revealed.

So, now PRISM has been revealed they will just make the service even more secret. I don't think it's going to ever stop.

 

[FoolKiller]

From what I have read the tracking implemented by the NSA didn't log the content of the messages/phonecalls. I know that doesn't make it right. Recording video and holding that on file is far more personal than holding who I have called/who I have e-mailed.

What you have read is the response we have been given by the people doing the monitoring. Do you think they became extremely honest all of a sudden?

Please don't think I approve of PRISM, I just feel like I have always known it was happening, it wasn't a surprise to me when it leaked. I expect that every government in the world is doing exactly the same thing even though it hasn't been revealed.

You think they were lying about this but not what exactly the details of what is being monitored?

Yes, many suspected they already did this. It's public now. There is no deniability for them to fall back on. Now they must face the accusations that they have violated the core principals that built this country, that they are destroying the very thing they claim to be defending. And the president is now shown to truly be the liar he has claimed to not be. He has been able to claim "political realities" until now, but this is something he directly has the ability to control and is the very thing he said would never happen again.

So, now PRISM has been revealed they will just make the service even more secret. I don't think it's going to ever stop.

And that is the reason to raise as big of a fuss as possible now. Email bomb and call the politicians that don't speak out about it, be sure every politician that isn't making a visible effort to end these kinds of programs are voted out of office, and do what all liberty-loving citizens should. Fight it. They can no longer deny your fight. Put their feet to the fire and let them know some, "we just see the who and when, not the content" press releases will not put this to rest.

On my list of goals with this is to ensure that no Democrat running for office can use their support of President Obama as a stumping point. I will declare any candidate claiming to support Obama to be an enemy of liberty and the US Constitution. This may not end, it may become more covert, but no one will be able to publicly sport it and go forward politically with ease.

 

[Mark T]

What you have read is the response we have been given by the people doing the monitoring. Do you think they became extremely honest all of a sudden?


You think they were lying about this but not what exactly the details of what is being monitored?

Yes, many suspected they already did this. It's public now. There is no deniability for them to fall back on. Now they must face the accusations that they have violated the core principals that built this country, that they are destroying the very thing they claim to be defending. And the president is now shown to truly be the liar he has claimed to not be. He has been able to claim "political realities" until now, but this is something he directly has the ability to control and is the very thing he said would never happen again.


And that is the reason to raise as big of a fuss as possible now. Email bomb and call the politicians that don't speak out about it, be sure every politician that isn't making a visible effort to end these kinds of programs are voted out of office, and do what all liberty-loving citizens should. Fight it. They can no longer deny your fight. Put their feet to the fire and let them know some, "we just see the who and when, not the content" press releases will not put this to rest.

On my list of goals with this is to ensure that no Democrat running for office can use their support of President Obama as a stumping point. I will declare any candidate claiming to support Obama to be an enemy of liberty and the US Constitution. This may not end, it may become more covert, but no one will be able to publicly sport it and go forward politically with ease.

I watched the Snowden video last night and he doesn't make any reference to actual data being stored. It seems that he was very close to top level clearance and was able to access information others could not. He also makes a reference to being able to phone tap anyone if he wanted to. If he was going to leak Prism I'm sure he would also reveal that the government is storing the content of communications if it was happening.

There may be another government department which is collecting content of communications which Ed Snowden may not have known about.

Another point which Ed Snowden makes in the video is that the government was collecting the data to make their job easier. Rather than selecting certain communications they recorded everything. I don't think he said it in those exact words but that was the message I got.

Everyone seems to be talking about the government being totalitarian (or moving towards it). So I guess you have to ask the question; are they collecting your data to essentially enslave or control you or are they genuinely collecting your communications because they believe there is a real threat against your natural security?

One thing that I would like to see is NSA reports on just how many security breaches they have found through using PRISM. How many lives have they possibly saved by this intrusion? Then again, even if they released figures, would anyone believe them?

 

[Famine]

He also makes a reference to being able to phone tap anyone if he wanted to.

Which is specifically illegal action for the government under the terms of the Constitution.

So I guess you have to ask the question; are they collecting your data to essentially enslave or control you or are they genuinely collecting your communications because they believe there is a real threat against your natural security?

There is no difference.

One thing that I would like to see is NSA reports on just how many security breaches they have found through using PRISM. How many lives have they possibly saved by this intrusion? Then again, even if they released figures, would anyone believe them?

As I mentioned last night, they've become terrorists to 300 million people at once.

Breaching freedoms isn't protecting you from terrorism. It is terrorism. It might not involve explosions and death, but it does the same job over a much longer period of time.

 

[Mark T]

I hope I don't come across as agreeing with the actions of the NSA or the government as a whole. I respect that the constitution in all it's forms is very important to America.

As Famine has made clear, whatever the intentions were for PRISM, no matter how much important intelligence came from it, it remains an illegal practice.

What I really want to know is who in the end gets held accountable for implementing PRISM. Surely it goes from Obama all the way through the senate, the courts and even down to politicians who surely knew that this was happening but chose to say nothing.

 

[Pupik]

They'd be rather likely to win elections if everybody voted for them.

By that construct, so would Rosanne Barr and/or Vermin Supreme.

Chuck Woolery

I have a new favorite ex-game show host.

I hate all this, but there's unnerving and unproven feeling that many of us felt this was going on for decades...leave it to a media outlet outside the US to pull the lid off of it.

All right, back to my cave.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Do you honestly think that an alternative government would not do the same?

Lets say that Obama had not won the election and Mitt Romney was now President. Do you think he would have shut PRISM down? Or do you think he would have used it?

The only politician that would shut PRISM down the moment they got into office would be the extreme civil libertarians - and they're unlikely to get elected in the first place.

I believe the program started under Bush and had Romney been elected it would have continued unaltered. However, Obama is the man at the top at the moment and by default has to be the fall guy for it continuing under his watch, not for 2 years but for 6. Goes with the job. They've already blamed George Bush for everything under the sun, but I don't think they'll get away with "Bush started it so it's his fault so we just kept it going, don't blame us"

 

[Famine]

I believe the program started under Bush and had Romney been elected it would have continued unaltered. However, Obama is the man at the top at the moment and by default has to be the fall guy for it continuing under his watch, not for 2 years but for 6. Goes with the job.

It's more that it goes against what he said his job would be...

Like the drone strikes.

And Guantanamo Bay.

 

[FoolKiller]

I watched the Snowden video last night and he doesn't make any reference to actual data being stored. It seems that he was very close to top level clearance and was able to access information others could not. He also makes a reference to being able to phone tap anyone if he wanted to. If he was going to leak Prism I'm sure he would also reveal that the government is storing the content of communications if it was happening.

There may be another government department which is collecting content of communications which Ed Snowden may not have known about.

Another point which Ed Snowden makes in the video is that the government was collecting the data to make their job easier. Rather than selecting certain communications they recorded everything. I don't think he said it in those exact words but that was the message I got.

A link to the video, so I know we are on the same page would be nice. Are you talking about the video here?

Two statements he made stood out to me, but I think you missed them.

At 7:09 - "Even if you are doing nothing wrong, you are being watched and recorded."
At 7:30 - "They can use the system to go back in time and scrutinize every decision you ever made."

With all that, I still don't know if he could see everything. He was a contractor, not NSA. I have a friend who does IT contracting at Fort Knox and he is as high clearance as he can get, but there are levels above him.

Everyone seems to be talking about the government being totalitarian (or moving towards it). So I guess you have to ask the question; are they collecting your data to essentially enslave or control you or are they genuinely collecting your communications because they believe there is a real threat against your natural security?

Snowden pointed out why this doesn't matter. He called it "turnkey tyranny." Everything they are doing now could be in our best interests. Do you trust that every politician will do the same? You don't know who will be elected. Having access to power that can be abused is dangerous. It is why the founders drew a line and said don't cross it for any reason. The government you trust today won't be there in 10 years. You don't know who will be there. Would you trust a random stranger with this ability? That is what you are doing if you try to legitimize it by its current use. Some 14-year-olds could probably be trusted to drive, but we don't hand any of them keys. Even since the nuclear launch sequence was automated we have required it to take two people, each with multiple steps. No one man can abuse the system and it will take a lot of effort for someone else to do it just right. Just as with the drones, there are no checks here.

One thing that I would like to see is NSA reports on just how many security breaches they have found through using PRISM. How many lives have they possibly saved by this intrusion? Then again, even if they released figures, would anyone believe them?

They tell us that drones (which we only know about due to leaks) have killed no civilians, but leaked documents show that's a lie. They claim they weren't investigating reporters, only to find one called a co-conspirator.

Why should we trust them?

What I really want to know is who in the end gets held accountable for implementing PRISM. Surely it goes from Obama all the way through the senate, the courts and even down to politicians who surely knew that this was happening but chose to say nothing.

President Truman had a sign on his desk. It said, "The buck stops here." The president is commander in chief. His word is final and these things don't happen it out his consent. One man had the power to single-handedly stop this, and promised to do so. He takes on ultimate responsibility, but I bet they blame it on Bush if pulling out the terrorist boogeyman doesn't work.

It's more that it goes against what he said his job would be...

Like the drone strikes.

And Guantanamo Bay.

You forgot harassing and investigating journalists over leaks.




"Nobody is above the law." I wonder if he still believes that.



EDIT:
Found this from 1984. We were warned and warned and warned. Will this time just be another warning or where we finally say, "ENOUGH!"

 

[Mark T]

FK, I completely agree with you on the point that the data being held may be secure now but should a new leadership come in to power they could abuse the data held. Thinking about it now, it's extremely dangerous.

I can confirm that the video you watched was the same as the one I had seen.

Ed Snowden seemed to be in a position of power, he had control over the network, he had access to very sensitive data and could have if he wanted to, in his own words, shut down the network completely. This alone makes me question whether the data is safe.

If Obama is found to be negligent, unlawful and irresponsible in allowing this secretive network to continue what kind of punishment could he face? Could he be impeached? As you say, the buck stops with him.

 

[FoolKiller]

Ed Snowden seemed to be in a position of power, he had control over the network, he had access to very sensitive data and could have if he wanted to, in his own words, shut down the network completely. This alone makes me question whether the data is safe.

He probably has enough access to cause damage, as he is doing sever support, but actual access to the databases themselves is questionable. Anyone who uses Access knows the data can be secured separately from the interface. He could probably see what it was doing and gathering and read their reporting programs, but not see the actual data. There likely needs to be an agent status or above to get the data itself. Chances are the data wasn't even in the same building.

If Obama is found to be negligent, unlawful and irresponsible in allowing this secretive network to continue what kind of punishment could he face? Could he be impeached? As you say, the buck stops with him.

He is working within the limits of the Patriot Act. There is a saying often used in cases like this. It's not illegal, but its unconstitutional. It sounds confusing, but that is the goal. As long as the law exists to allow it, then it is legal. The law has to be ruled unconstitutional in court to stop it. If that were to happen and then it continues then he will be legally accountable. Until then, he and Bush, can walk away legally unscathed. The only thing that can be done now is to ruin his public image.

The press is helping, reporting every tiny little thing. He attacked the press and they can bite back like a rabid dog. He learned nothing from the US Revolution. Some of the founders owned newspapers. They were attacked through taxes and censorship laws. Their response was to illegally publish the unjustness of the British rulers and rally an uprising. The press today has been guaranteed free speech, so when they are attacked they have no risks in publishing every bit of dirty laundry to cross their desks.

For example: Today CBS is reporting on State Department memos that reveal cover ups of illegal and innappropriate behavior.

But one person claims to be planning to lead a class-action lawsuit to stop these invasions of privacy.

 

[DK]

He is working within the limits of the Patriot Act. There is a saying often used in cases like this. It's not illegal, but its unconstitutional. It sounds confusing, but that is the goal. As long as the law exists to allow it, then it is legal. The law has to be ruled unconstitutional in court to stop it.

Something tells me that there's probably a clause in there that might criminalise whoever would take the case against this Act.

 

[FoolKiller]

Something tells me that there's probably a clause in there that might criminalise whoever would take the case against this Act.

The requests for data are made via National Security Letters. It is illegal to discuss the content of NSLs, making it very hard to detail the Constitutional violations in a courtroom.

 

[Joel]

That's rather convienient isn't it?