America - The Official Thread

[Zardoz]

They've had long enough.

Oh, all 450,000 of those jobs have been re-created already? All those people have jobs waiting for them?

Why has the media been keeping this a secret from us?

 

[a6m5]

Oh, all 450,000 of those jobs have been re-created already? All those people have jobs waiting for them?

Why has the media been keeping this a secret from us?

One of the major TV Networks, they did a story on this Burger King franchise. They had customers(I assume the reconstruction people), but nobody wanted to work there. This restaurant was offering $5,000 signing bonus! It was a one year agreement, and the bonus was to be paid monthly over a course of the year. I don't know if this was consistent with rest of New Orleans, but I thought it was interesting.

 

[Swift]

Agreed, I mean what it's been since August or something? Hell I know I would have gotten off my ass and fixed things.

Unfair to say since you were not effected like they were.

However, If I was living in NO I would've done two things. Gotten food and water and left NO BEFORE the hurricane hit. This isn't 1905, we have radar and we KNOW when stuff is coming. If you're too proud to split that's on you. It shouldn't be on me and my tax dollars. I have zero problem helping people that have been displaced in the short term, but this simply can't turn into another welfare situation where a great percentage of these people just live off the government for years.

Katrina was a horrible situation, but it was almost entirely self inflicted. The weak leves, the wussy local government, the people not leaving when being told to. that's all just plain dumb.

Ok, sorry, let's try to keep this on the topic of American politics and economics.

 

[Zardoz]

...but nobody wanted to work there...

Actually, there was nobody around to fill the jobs! That's why the mayor is begging. Jobs are going unfilled because people aren't returning. They aren't returning because they would have nowhere to live!

What are they supposed to do? Camp out?

The toll:

250,000 homes
500,000 unemployment claims
$60 billion in insured damage
$200 billion in government losses

And we're getting impatient because all this hasn't been all "fixed up" in four frickin' months!?

The "market" would have straightened all this out, if only all those lazy loafers had "gotten off their asses"?

 

[Zardoz]

...but it was almost entirely self inflicted...

Those people whipped up 140 MPH winds and "inflicted" them upon themselves?

Huh!?!?

 

[a6m5]

Actually, there was nobody around to fill the jobs! That's why the mayor is begging. Jobs are going unfilled because people aren't returning. They aren't returning because they would have nowhere to live!

What are they supposed to do? Camp out?

Ahh, I get the point. I hope they are keeping up by putting up apartments as fast as they can.

 

[Swift]

Actually, there was nobody around to fill the jobs! That's why the mayor is begging. Jobs are going unfilled because people aren't returning. They aren't returning because they would have nowhere to live!

What are they supposed to do? Camp out?

The toll:

250,000 homes
500,000 unemployment claims
$60 billion in insured damage
$200 billion in government losses

And we're getting impatient because all this hasn't been all "fixed up" in four frickin' months!?

The "market" would have straightened all this out, if only all those lazy loafers had "gotten off their asses"?

Ok, we have to make sure that we're making the distinction between lives and jobs. And you did in the post Zardoz, but I fear people may soon start to mix the two.

I've covered what I thought about saving lives. As far as the job situation goes. There is no quick fix. Either come back and salvage what you can or start looking for something new. That's it and neither one of those is a quick or smooth transition.

 

[Kylehnat]

Many thousands of people escaped death with nothing but the clothes they were wearing, but that's just too damned bad, isn't it?

Here's the thing, Zardoz: preparedness. Hurricanes don't exactly sneak up on people. If I had been living in NO in the days leading up to Katrina, I would have prepared a pack with food, water, and probably a blanket, fully expecting to lose everything but the clothes on my back, and that pack. During the hurricane, I would have huddled with that pack. The only way I would have lost it is if I had died, and then it wouldn't matter anyway. You can't tell me that even the most destitute person can't do that. Secondly, whoever leaves the house without their wallet is a fool. Again, if there was any chance that my wallet could go missing or be unreachable after the hurricane, I would make sure that it would be in my pocket during the whole ordeal. Now, after the hurricane has hit and my house and all my possesions are destroyed, I still have my pack of food and water, my identification, a little bit of cash, and my ATM/credit cards. I am well prepared to spend 3 days in the Superdome, and upon being transported to Houston, San Antonio, Dallas, or wherever, I can still access my money in the bank, which I can use to start rebuilding what I had. No government handout necessary. Now, of course not everyone has this luxury, but those are the people for which federal aid is intended. Natural disasters are horrible, and ruin people's lives, but that is a risk you taking living anywhere. As such, you should have some level of preparedness to keep you from truly losing everything but the clothes on your back should something like this happen.

 

[Danoff]

Actually, there was nobody around to fill the jobs! That's why the mayor is begging. Jobs are going unfilled because people aren't returning. They aren't returning because they would have nowhere to live!

What are they supposed to do? Camp out?

The toll:

250,000 homes
500,000 unemployment claims
$60 billion in insured damage
$200 billion in government losses

And we're getting impatient because all this hasn't been all "fixed up" in four frickin' months!?

Of course it hasn't been all fixed up in four months, but people have had enough time to find a way to take care of themselves. Obviously lots of money and posessions were lost in the disaster, but that doesn't mean that people can't move on.

The "market" would have straightened all this out, if only all those lazy loafers had "gotten off their asses"?

They should have gotten the hell out of there in the first place. But at this point they need to not be sitting in shelters or government-sponsored living quarters, and be out finding work and providing for themselves again. I'm so sick of people refusing to take responsibility for their own condition. The fact of the matter is that many of the people living on NO were responsible enough to handle the situation properly. It's the people who refused to help themselves by thinking one step ahead of their immediate situation who are in the most difficult situation... and they continue to be by continuing to refuse to think ahead.

They're responsible for their lives. I'm responsible for mine.

 

[Danoff]

Here's the thing, Zardoz: preparedness. Hurricanes don't exactly sneak up on people. If I had been living in NO in the days leading up to Katrina, I would have prepared a pack with food, water, and probably a blanket, fully expecting to lose everything but the clothes on my back, and that pack. During the hurricane, I would have huddled with that pack.

No you wouldn't have. During the hurricane you'd have sat in a hotel or a friend or family member's house somewhere far away from the hurricane and enjoyed a nice peaceful evening... because you'd have thought to yourself "Why risk it? I'm going to leave."

 

[Zardoz]

Here's the thing, Zardoz: preparedness. Hurricanes don't exactly sneak up on people...As such, you should have some level of preparedness to keep you from truly losing everything but the clothes on your back should something like this happen.

You don't understand what happened. The storm was largely gone when the levee and seawall broke. Tens of thousands of people had no warning. A wall of water came blasting into their neighborhoods. In some areas the water rose so fast some barely were able to swim out of their houses before the water rose to the ceilings and trapped them.

If that was happening to you, would you be able to dive down into the brown-muck water, hold your breath and swim through your house, feeling your way as you went as you searched for your wallet?

You people really don't seem to have a handle on what happened, how bad it was, and how titanic the magnitude of the destruction is.

Tell you what: Google "Katrina recovery" and tell me how many hits you get.

 

[Kylehnat]

No you wouldn't have. During the hurricane you'd have sat in a hotel or a friend or family member's house somewhere far away from the hurricane and enjoyed a nice peaceful evening... because you'd have thought to yourself "Why risk it? I'm going to leave."

^okay, that is true; realistically, I probably would have been long gone, but if for some reason I knew that I wouldn't be able to leave, that is how I would have (and people should have) prepared for the worst-case scenario.

 

[Danoff]

You don't understand what happened. The storm was largely gone when the levee and seawall broke. Tens of thousands of people had no warning. A wall of water came blasting into their neighborhoods. In some areas the water rose so fast some barely were able to swim out of their houses before the water rose to the ceilings and trapped them.

If that was happening to you, would you be able to dive down into the brown-muck water, hold your breath and swim through your house, feeling your way as you went as you searched for your wallet?

You're not listening to me. It's as though when I talk about charity you just turn the switch off.

You people really don't seem to have a handle on what happened, how bad it was, and how titanic the magnitude of the destruction is.

I think I have a better handle on it than you do. Especially considering that I had relatives there.

 

[Swift]

You don't understand what happened. The storm was largely gone when the levee and seawall broke. Tens of thousands of people had no warning. A wall of water came blasting into their neighborhoods. In some areas the water rose so fast some barely were able to swim out of their houses before the water rose to the ceilings and trapped them.

If that was happening to you, would you be able to dive down into the brown-muck water, hold your breath and swim through your house, feeling your way as you went as you searched for your wallet?

You people really don't seem to have a handle on what happened, how bad it was, and how titanic the magnitude of the destruction is.

Tell you what: Google "Katrina recovery" and tell me how many hits you get.

We do have a handle on it. But you're not getting what we're saying. The engineers SAID the levees would most likely break under a storm of Katrina's size. So why stay?

And often times with storms like this, much like earthquakes, the real damage isn't done until after the major part of the storm is over.

Danoff, Kylenat and myself are still totally justified in our stance.

 

[Kylehnat]

You don't understand what happened. The storm was largely gone when the levee and seawall broke. Tens of thousands of people had no warning. A wall of water came blasting into their neighborhoods. In some areas the water rose so fast some barely were able to swim out of their houses before the water rose to the ceilings and trapped them.

But they did know it was a strong (and almost certain) possibility. The engineers who designed the leeves said that they would fail and the mayor and governor said to get out of Dodge. If it was possible that my town would end up under 20 feet of water, I would prepare as though it were 100% certain to happen. Maybe I should clarify: I never said that I would for sure SURVIVE, but i did say that if I did make it alive, I would have basic necessities with me.

If that was happening to you, would you be able to dive down into the brown-muck water, hold your breath and swim through your house, feeling your way as you went as you searched for your wallet?

No, because it would still be in my pocket until I WAS SURE that I was out of harm's way.

 

[Danoff]

We do have a handle on it. But you're not getting what we're saying. The engineers SAID the levees would most likely break under a storm of Katrina's size. So why stay?

Not only did they say that, but the city issued an EVACUATION! Meaning your city officials, the ones responsible for the levees were telling everyone to GET OUT!

I think when you hear that you should listen.

 

[Kylehnat]

Not only did they say that, but the city issued an EVACUATION! Meaning your city officials, the ones responsible for the levees were telling everyone to GET OUT!

I think when you hear that you should listen.

And even though many people COULD NOT leave, they still could have better prepared themselves.

 

[Swift]

And even though many people COULD NOT leave, they still could have better prepared themselves.

Just about everyone could leave. Many simply chose not to. Because they put there trust in the technology that held the water back. Or they just didn't feel like it.

 

[Zardoz]

Not only did they say that, but the city issued an EVACUATION! Meaning your city officials, the ones responsible for the levees were telling everyone to GET OUT!

I think when you hear that you should listen.

And, as we all know, the city completely blew the evacuation itself. Remember the unused buses? Do you all think that everybody who wanted out had the means to actually leave? And where were they supposed to go? We're talking millions of people!

 

[Zardoz]

...Danoff, Kylenat and myself are still totally justified in our stance.

And that "stance" is what, exactly?

 

[MrktMkr1986]

You have to be joking!

I don't joke about things like this.

If not could you please back that up?

Let me back up my belief:

Pew Research: Values and Media

Very interesting, thanks! I will add these to my favorites.

How the Media Vote
Journalist's Political Views
How the Public Views the Media
Admissions and Denials of Liberal Bias

Mediaresearch.org is a conservative website. Nothing wrong with that... just an observation.

http://www.whatliberalmedia.com/ << if you want something moderate

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1016-06.htm << if you want left-of-center

http://home.att.net/~Resurgence/L-liberalmedia.htm << another site... left-of-center

...and...

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Chomsky/MediaControl_excerpts.html << far left... 👍

I wish the US was pure capialist,

Be careful what you wish for.

 

[Danoff]

And, as we all know, the city completely blew the evacuation itself. Remember the unused buses? Do you all think that everybody who wanted out had the means to actually leave? And where were they supposed to go? We're talking millions of people!

The vast majority of the people did get out. I think everyone had an opportunity to get out - except perhaps the hypothetical coma patient who had no relatives. Again, people need to take responsibility for themsevles rather than rely on others to take care of them.

 

[MrktMkr1986]

But I'm sick of paying for them, if they don't have insurence to pay for their homes then that isn't my problem. My tax dollars should go to more useful things.

$8 billion/year to AFDC, and people go crazy.

$150-800 billion/year in corporate subsidies, tax credits etc. -- no one complains.

Hundreds of billions paid out for the S&L scandal -- no one complains.

You're right -- my tax dollars should go to more useful things -- like helping people who need help. Not paying some corporation to ship jobs overseas.

 

[Danoff]

I don't joke about things like this.



Very interesting, thanks! I will add these to my favorites.



Mediaresearch.org is a conservative website. Nothing wrong with that... just an observation.

http://www.whatliberalmedia.com/ << if you want something moderate

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1016-06.htm << if you want left-of-center

http://home.att.net/~Resurgence/L-liberalmedia.htm << another site... left-of-center

...and...

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Chomsky/MediaControl_excerpts.html << far left... 👍



Be careful what you wish for.

Here are some liberally biased stories running right now.

Here's a biased story on CNN
http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/12/05/movies.disabled.ap/index.html
Here's one on ABC
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=1374197
^^ less obvious bias in that one.
Here's a less biased take on the same issue from the NY Times of all sources
http://www.times.com/2005/12/05/pol...&en=f0e33be2a4ff9caa&ei=5094&partner=homepage

I'm all for gay marriage, but here's an article where the Times gets biased
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/05/international/europe/05cnd-gays.html

I think this one is liberally biased
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/12/05/tech/main1096958.shtml

Here's some liberal bias on Fox News
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,177654,00.html

It doesn't matter where you go, or whose story you read - you're going to read some bias. The bottom line is that this country is liberal and the news is reflective/responsible of/for that.

 

[Danoff]

You're right -- my tax dollars should go to more useful things -- like helping people who need help. Not paying some corporation to ship jobs overseas.

Your tax dollars should go toward either one of those things.

Edit: oops, yes that should be "neither one", rather than "either one".

 

[Zardoz]

Your tax dollars should go toward either one of those things.

I'm sure you mean "neither"...

 

[Swift]

And that "stance" is what, exactly?

That stance is simply, take care of yourself. Not, rely on the government for all kinds of help.

We can place blame until we're blue in the face and we'll probably all be right. But the bottom line is we live in a free society. The people were told to leave, a lot stayed and were stranded. Now, who's fault could THAT possibly be but the people that stayed.

 

[MrktMkr1986]

Here are some liberally biased stories running right now.

Here's a biased story on CNN
http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/12/05/movies.disabled.ap/index.html
Here's one on ABC
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=1374197
^^ less obvious bias in that one.
Here's a less biased take on the same issue from the NY Times of all sources
http://www.times.com/2005/12/05/pol...&en=f0e33be2a4ff9caa&ei=5094&partner=homepage

I'm all for gay marriage, but here's an article where the Times gets biased
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/05/international/europe/05cnd-gays.html

I think this one is liberally biased
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/12/05/tech/main1096958.shtml

Here's some liberal bias on Fox News
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,177654,00.html

It doesn't matter where you go, or whose story you read - you're going to read some bias. The bottom line is that this country is liberal and the news is reflective/responsible of/for that.

"They" complain about a liberal bias in the media because they want to rid the media of any form of liberalism.

I agree with the green, strongly disagree with the red.

That stance is simply, take care of yourself. Not, rely on the government for all kinds of help.

That goes for corporations too...

 

[Zardoz]

Here are some liberally biased stories running right now.

Here's a biased story on CNN
http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/12/05/movies.disabled.ap/index.html
Here's one on ABC
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=1374197
^^ less obvious bias in that one.
Here's a less biased take on the same issue from the NY Times of all sources
http://www.times.com/2005/12/05/pol...&en=f0e33be2a4ff9caa&ei=5094&partner=homepage

I'm all for gay marriage, but here's an article where the Times gets biased
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/05/international/europe/05cnd-gays.html

I think this one is liberally biased
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/12/05/tech/main1096958.shtml

Here's some liberal bias on Fox News
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,177654,00.html

It doesn't matter where you go, or whose story you read - you're going to read some bias. The bottom line is that this country is liberal and the news is reflective/responsible of/for that.

Okay, now I'm starting to worry about you. You seem to be losing it. Please explain the "liberal bias" in each one of those stories. What in God's holy name are you talking about???

 

[Swift]

That goes for corporations too...

Well, it's obvously much easier to ask for ahndouts then come up with new products/services.