America - The Official Thread

[xyloscissor]

I'm not sure you have the mandate to speak for all of them.

I don't, but I also don't think what I said is very far off the mark. Seriously not to bring up the democracy thing again or whatever, it is true that the U.S. gives power to those who already have power. It used to be only those owning land could vote if memory serves. Sure it is in the distant past but what we do and how we act also goes back to our past.

To be clear though, we have always been against communism, look at how we treated Holywood, look at JFK and Reagan. While the voice does matter it is still squashed, let me remind you that I grew up with the Oppenheimer family. While I never met the man I knew his son and grandson well, Just think for a bit how hard it must have been to be him.

He does, but his party is divided. Some support him, but others oppose him. In order to get anything done, he needs to appease all of the factions (and one of the leading criticisms of the Turnbull government is that it hasn't achieved anything). This gives the factions a lot of power, and they're not afraid to use it. Securing the deal with Obama was a feather in Turnbull's cap because it allowed him to end a controversial policy (keeping immigrants in offshore detention), but Trump's presence changes things. Any Republican candidate was going to require some finesse, but the right-leaning faction will be rubbing their hands in anticipation because Trump will be difficult to deal with by comparison, and that plays into their hands.

Less is always more when it comes to government lol.(that is my opinion and one held by many). I do not know what this Obama deal is you speak of, so let me know that. I don't see why Trump would be difficult to deal with by comparison, I mean he is a royal pain in anyone's ass but your country is your own right? I'll say the same thing I said when you replied to me, we can take a little bit of your load if that is needed. I don't think even Trump can stop that, it looks that way with his hard line but he'd be making a huge mistake if he didn't realize we are compassionate people.

 

[Scaff]

I don't, ......

Then why do you keep doing so?

.....but I also don't think what I said is very far off the mark. Seriously not to bring up the democracy thing again or whatever, it is true that the U.S. gives power to those who already have power. It used to be only those owning land could vote if memory serves. Sure it is in the distant past but what we do and how we act also goes back to our past.

I've not brought up the democracy thing, either in this discussion or any other discussion with you, so quite frankly have no idea what you are on about (and 1856 is not the distant past, I've got books almost as old).

To be clear though, we have always been against communism, look at how we treated Holywood, look at JFK and Reagan.

And off you go again, are you a collective organism or some kind of hive collective? Maybe the spokesperson for a group or organisation (if so please detail them)? If not you are not a 'we' and don't get to speak on behalf of a larger body as if you are.

Given the range you are attempting to assign the 'we' to (America) you can't possibly actually believe you are able to voice the view of every citizen who has ever lived in the country, so stop doing so.

Are American politics predominantly to the right of centre? Yes they are. Does that mean no left exists, and within that left people who have a desire for a communist system (hard left in more contemporary terms)are utterly absent? I seriously doubt that, and I don't recognise your mandate to declare it such either.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Left

While the voice does matter it is still squashed, let me remind you that I grew up with the Oppenheimer family. While I never met the man I knew his son and grandson well, Just think for a bit how hard it must have been to be him.

How can you remind me of something you have never mentioned to me before? Not that as a point it has any bearing on this at all.

 

[xyloscissor]

Seriously @Scaff? Why not read what I posted, it is a very touchy subject in the U.S. You want me to stop using we, that is fine I'll try but to say the united states is not or maybe more accurate has not, been against communism is simply wrong. You need to realize something that seems to me you are ignoring and that would be Vietnam.

Anyway, Gorsuch anyone?

This is serious stuff, the SCOTUS is the last stop in our checks.

 

[Scaff]

Seriously @Scaff? Why not read what I posted, it is a very touchy subject in the U.S. You want me to stop using we, that is fine I'll try but to say the united states is not or maybe more accurate has not, been against communism is simply wrong. You need to realize something that seems to me you are ignoring and that would be Vietnam.

Anyway, Gorsuch anyone?

This is serious stuff, the SCOTUS is the last stop in our checks.

Its a touchy subject in America?

Remind me how many parts of North America were invaded by the USSR? How many city's were blockaded in the US by the USSR? How many countries split in two by the USSR?

Historically Europe has quite a few more reasons to be 'touchy' about communism than the US does.

The point still stands, a part of the American population has always found communism to appeal, as such you can't apply a blanket 'we' to statements about how the entire US is against communism. Enough Americans liked either the Communist ideology and/or money to spy for them at some pretty high levels after all.

 

[xyloscissor]

The point still stands, a part of the American population has always found communism to appeal, as such you can't apply a blanket 'we' to statements about how the entire US is against communism. Enough Americans liked either the Communist ideology and/or money to spy for them at some pretty high levels after all.

Indeed that is true, but the last time I checked this was the 'america' thread?

I'm wondering if you bothered with my bit about Oppenheimer at all, you might be right in saying I can't remind you of something I never told you, however, what I say is true and I saw first hand as a child the effects of speaking of communism.

I am going to drive my point home and if you don't agree we can disagree in a civil manner. 👍

When I was a kid my mother secured my safe passage to Canada she was so fearful of the draft. She is so left btw, very left but even she is not in favor of communism and either is the greater U.S. I'm sorry if you don't like it.

 

[Dotini]

My uncle Fred was interested in communism as far back as the 1930's. Raised in northwestern Washington, sometimes known as the Soviet of Washington (http://depts.washington.edu/labhist/cpproject/index.shtml) for its history of wobblies (IWW), labor riots and widespread leftist leanings to this very day. Freddy, after conscientiously objecting, served in WWII as a corpsman in the ski patrol, and became actively communist later in the 40's and the '50's. His adoptive son, Karl, my cousin and co-owner of our Hood Canal property, fishing cabin and boathouse, was raised in a communist environment and has many stories to tell. Freddy was a believer in Bigfoot, went on several expeditions, and was an associate of the noted cryptozoologist Ivan Sanderson.

 

[Scaff]

Indeed that is true, but the last time I checked this was the 'america' thread?

I know, I made a counter-point about a claim in regard to America.

I'm wondering if you bothered with my bit about Oppenheimer at all, you might be right in saying I can't remind you of something I never told you, however, what I say is true and I saw first hand as a child the effects of speaking of communism.

You still haven't added any context around it for me to comment on. I knew Oppenheimer's kids and grand-kids is not exactly a lot to go on.

I am going to drive my point home and if you don't agree we can disagree in a civil manner. 👍

When I was a kid my mother secured my safe passage to Canada she was so fearful of the draft. She is so left btw, very left but even she is not in favor of communism and either is the greater U.S. I'm sorry if you don't like it.

You seriously want to get into a 'number of dead by Communists' pissing contest between Europe and America?

In Poland more civilians were killed by the USSR in WW2 than US soldiers died in the entire Vietnam campaign (potentially twice as many). Do not take that as in any way dismissing the tragic loss of lives the American people suffered during the Vietnam war, but were are talking entirely different scales here.

 

[xyloscissor]

that explains all so much @Dotini

You know I kid, very cool of you to share 👍

 

[xyloscissor]

You seriously want to get into a 'number of dead by Communists' pissing contest between Europe and America?

Of course not, why you suggest that is beyond me tbh. Poland? OK, do you know why I like the leader of Hungary so much? You should. Look, it is very simple, I am an american. You can say I'm full of nonsense all you want but I am an american and I do know who we are as a people. Oops, I know who I am as a person lol, I don't think you understand the U.S. in the way you wish you did.

I could be wrong, but it seems to me you really don't get what the country is all about.

 

[Joey D]

I think it's probably fair to say the overall feeling in the US is that Communism is bad. It's something we used to be taught from a young age in school, especially when the Cold War is used as a bit of a "Murica @#$& Yeah!" propaganda tool. I'm not sure what school teach anymore but even 15 years ago we were being taught how terrible the USSR was. Also anyone who's in their 20s had parents that probably grew up during the "Red Scare" and were really indoctrinated with anti-Communist rheotoric, so most of us grew up hearing that from our parents as well.

Yes, there are still people in the US that support Communism but most do not. Even most far left leaning folks I know are quick to point out they aren't Communist but rather Socialist Democrats. Fundementally I don't really see much of a difference, but they don't want to be labelled a Communist so I just try to appease them.

 

[Scaff]

Of course not, why you suggest that is beyond me tbh. Poland? OK, do you know why I like the leader of Hungary so much? You should. Look, it is very simple, I am an american. You can say I'm full of nonsense all you want but I am an american and I do know who we are as a people. Oops, I know who I am as a person lol, I don't think you understand the U.S. in the way you wish you did.

You like a man who has reduced the freedom of the press and enacted laws to reduce the democratic nature of his country?

https://freedomhouse.org/blog/press-freedom-loser-viktor-orbán’s-winner-take-all-hungary
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/29/budapest-viktor-orban-democracy-edge-hungary

Nice guy to admire!

I could be wrong, but it seems to me you really don't get what the country is all about.

Oh I do, I have family in the US (Alabama) and friends (West Coast), I also work for an American company and work closely with a number of Americans.

They are not of the singular mind-set that you are presenting, but rather hold a wide range of views right across the politocal spectrum.

On a lighter note I'm not sure which made me chuckle more, Trump 'misplacing Rudy' or Rudy being an expert on Cybercrime.

 

[xyloscissor]

good stuff.

And yes Scaff I like the guy, there is not much more to say then that. Some people know about WWII and it's effect no? Well I don't ever expect you to have my view on those sorts of things, you cannot prove me wrong because opinion is simply that but I can say I'm not alone. Ideals are great, it's too bad we have pesky realities.

 

[Danoff]

Seriously @Scaff? Why not read what I posted, it is a very touchy subject in the U.S. You want me to stop using we, that is fine I'll try but to say the united states is not or maybe more accurate has not, been against communism is simply wrong. You need to realize something that seems to me you are ignoring and that would be Vietnam.

Anyway, Gorsuch anyone?

This is serious stuff, the SCOTUS is the last stop in our checks.

Gorsuch is anti assisted suicide? He wrote a book on it:

How can you be against assisted suicide? I just do not understand this. Someone is in pain and wants to die, and you deny them that ability by prosecuting anyone with the compassion to help them. We're more kind to dogs, deer, and roadkill in this respect than we are to human beings. It's mind boggling to me that we might force someone to live in pain. If you're with this guy (and this is aimed at anyone reading this post), explain yourself.

 

[Blitz24]

Gorsuch is anti assisted suicide? He wrote a book on it:

How can you be against assisted suicide? I just do not understand this. Someone is in pain and wants to die, and you deny them that ability by prosecuting anyone with the compassion to help them. We're more kind to dogs, deer, and roadkill in this respect than we are to human beings. It's mind boggling to me that we might force someone to live in pain. If you're with this guy (and this is aimed at anyone reading this post), explain yourself.

Simple. He is (or is in league with) devout religious supporters who view assisted suicide in the same light as unassisted suicide.

 

[-Cheezman-]

Gorsuch is anti assisted suicide? He wrote a book on it:

How can you be against assisted suicide? I just do not understand this. Someone is in pain and wants to die, and you deny them that ability by prosecuting anyone with the compassion to help them. We're more kind to dogs, deer, and roadkill in this respect than we are to human beings. It's mind boggling to me that we might force someone to live in pain. If you're with this guy (and this is aimed at anyone reading this post), explain yourself.

Presumably, the same stupid way you can be against gun ownership rights, or believe we need to make autonomous cars mandatory, or be against abortion.

Because people are getting killed; and therefore it is 100% bad.

 

[Biggles]

Presumably, the same stupid way you can be against gun ownership rights, or believe we need to make autonomous cars mandatory, or be against abortion.

Because people are getting killed; and therefore it is 100% bad.

Those are not equivalent issues at all - which is probably why they have quite different advocates & opponents.

People are against the proliferation of gun ownership because they believe it leads to more gun deaths. People who support gun ownership put the individual right to bear arms above questions of general public safety. People who oppose abortion do so because they believe it amounts to the killing of unborn human beings. People who support the right to have an abortion believe a fetus is not an unborn human being & a woman should have the right to control her own body. At the same time, many pro-lifers seem to not have a problem with capital punishment, which would indicate that they don't believe people getting killed is 100% bad. I don't think any of these positions are "stupid" - they reflect different ways of looking at the world & different priorities.

I have no idea about autonomous cars - that doesn't seem to be a real thing.

 

[-Cheezman-]

Those are not equivalent issues at all - which is probably why they have quite different advocates & opponents.

People are against the proliferation of gun ownership because they believe it leads to more gun deaths. People who support gun ownership put the individual right to bear arms above questions of general public safety. People who oppose abortion do so because they believe it amounts to the killing of unborn human beings. People who support the right to have an abortion believe a fetus is not an unborn human being & a woman should have the right to control her own body. At the same time, many pro-lifers seem to not have a problem with capital punishment, which would indicate that they don't believe people getting killed is 100% bad. I don't think any of these positions are "stupid" - they reflect different ways of looking at the world & different priorities..

The point, you clearly missed, was they only look at what they perceive as the absolute negatives/positives, and use that as the basis in which to prevent others from doing it.

It's called objectivity, it's sorely lacking in debates that seek to say "no you can't do that because *some bad things might happen*."

I find that to be utterly stupid.

I have no idea about autonomous cars - that doesn't seem to be a real thing.

It's a debate that is going to crop up in the future. Hence why I included it, as it's "public safety" vs "freewill."

• http://spectrum.ieee.org/transporta...rless-cars-optional-by-2024-mandatory-by-2044
• https://verdict.justia.com/2016/10/05/self-driving-cars-mandatory
• https://www.dezeen.com/2015/03/24/d...elon-musk-manual-cars-outlawed-banned-design/

 

[Biggles]

The point, you clearly missed, was they only look at what they perceive as the absolute negatives/positives, and use that as the basis in which to prevent others from doing it.

It's called objectivity, it's sorely lacking in debates that seek to say "no you can't do that because *some bad things might happen*."

I find that to be utterly stupid.

I haven't missed the point, but talking about "objectivity" in this context isn't going to get us very far. Most pro-lifers are motivated by religious belief. How can you even begin to talk about "objectivity" when it comes to religion?

 

[xyloscissor]

If you're with this guy (and this is aimed at anyone reading this post), explain yourself.

I was simply pointing out he is on the short list. I'll say something about the suicide thing though, america is a funny place sometimes, I think it's pretty clear that we allow and practice assisted suicide but want it illegal. Maybe it's a paranoia, could be because of religion, it seems inhumane to me to force someone to live against their will.

 

[ryzno]

Since we are on the subject of suicide...

How can the government deem it illegal to try to kill yourself?
If I try to commit suicide and fail how can the court arrest me and put me in a psychiatric facility?
It's my life. I should have a choice.

 

[xyloscissor]

Since we are on the subject of suicide...

How can the government deem it illegal to try to kill yourself?
If I try to commit suicide and fail how can the court arrest me and put me in a psychiatric facility?
It's my life. I should have a choice.

You must be protected from yourself silly, this is america.

I think the act is considered violent in nature and leaves victims in it's wake, it's hard to argue against that tbh but I still think the law is wrong. But we are talking about suicide in a general sense here right? The assisted discussion I think is a bit different as well.

 

[Dotini]

Gorsuch is anti assisted suicide? He wrote a book on it:

How can you be against assisted suicide? I just do not understand this. Someone is in pain and wants to die, and you deny them that ability by prosecuting anyone with the compassion to help them. We're more kind to dogs, deer, and roadkill in this respect than we are to human beings. It's mind boggling to me that we might force someone to live in pain. If you're with this guy (and this is aimed at anyone reading this post), explain yourself.

I'm not necessarily with this guy at, as I know nothing much about him. But the euthanasia/assisted suicide question is pertinent to me at this time. I have a very close relative who is in very close to a vegetative state and has repeatedly expressed a desire to "move on to the next dimension" should just such a medical condition arise in her. To the best of my understanding, assisted suicide is prohibited in my state. But in such a condition, palliative care or hospice would be rendered in order to relieve pain and discomfort.

But with regard to Gorsuch, his views are undoubtedly conditioned by religious injunctions against such practices, presumably that they would interfere with the soul's progress towards God, or some such notion. Gorsuch - and to a much, much lesser extent Trump, is oriented to a pro-life doctrine. With this nomination, Trump pays off his debt to the many believers and pro-lifers who voted for him.

 

[xyloscissor]

Trump pays off his debt to the many believers and pro-lifers who voted for him.

And also second amendment people, I think. That might be a question though.

 

[DDastardly00]

I'm not necessarily with this guy at, as I know nothing much about him. But the euthanasia/assisted suicide question is pertinent to me at this time. I have a very close relative who is in very close to a vegetative state and has repeatedly expressed a desire to "move on to the next dimension" should just such a medical condition arise in her. To the best of my understanding, assisted suicide is prohibited in my state. But in such a condition, palliative care or hospice would be rendered in order to relieve pain and discomfort.

But with regard to Gorsuch, his views are undoubtedly conditioned by religious injunctions against such practices, presumably that they would interfere with the soul's progress towards God, or some such notion. Gorsuch - and to a much, much lesser extent Trump, is oriented to a pro-life doctrine. With this nomination, Trump pays off his debt to the many believers and pro-lifers who voted for him.

The Death with Dignity Act- Initiative 1000 was passed in our state in 2008.

http://www.doh.wa.gov/YouandYourFamily/IllnessandDisease/DeathwithDignityAct

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

My uncle Fred was interested in communism as far back as the 1930's. Raised in northwestern Washington, sometimes known as the Soviet of Washington (http://depts.washington.edu/labhist/cpproject/index.shtml) for its history of wobblies (IWW), labor riots and widespread leftist leanings to this very day. Freddy, after conscientiously objecting, served in WWII as a corpsman in the ski patrol, and became actively communist later in the 40's and the '50's. His adoptive son, Karl, my cousin and co-owner of our Hood Canal property, fishing cabin and boathouse, was raised in a communist environment and has many stories to tell. Freddy was a believer in Bigfoot, went on several expeditions, and was an associate of the noted cryptozoologist Ivan Sanderson.

Cause Bigfoot is real dude, you can't tell me otherwise.

 

[Dotini]

Cause Bigfoot is real dude, you can't tell me otherwise.

I don't think so. Fred and Karl never found it, and neither has anyone else, despite a few university professors saying such a hominid may be possible. Exactly why do you seem to say otherwise? Are you sincere, or are your trolling?

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I haven't missed the point, but talking about "objectivity" in this context isn't going to get us very far. Most pro-lifers are motivated by religious belief. How can you even begin to talk about "objectivity" when it comes to religion?

Eh there is a good number that speak on it, due to a medical perspective and not religious in factor. Those are doctors and nurses and some in science. The Religious angle gets blown up because just like any issue in the U.S., blow up the crazy aspect of it rather than all. I don't disagree it doesn't have a good portion of advocates holding their crosses to the sky, but let's be a bit more fair.

I don't think so. Fred and Karl never found it, and neither has anyone else, despite a few university professors saying such a hominid may be possible. Exactly why do you seem to say otherwise? Are you sincere, or are your trolling?

Didn't we talk about this in the alien thread, just cause a single entity hasn't found it doesn't mean it doesn't exist*

*trolling

 

[Danoff]

Jenna Bush posted this speech from her father which was made 6 days after 9/11:

 

[Dotini]

Didn't we talk about this in the alien thread, just cause a single entity hasn't found it doesn't mean it doesn't exist*

*trolling

Your logic is not entirely convincing to me, and I hate to encourage your trolling. But I'll allow an alien/UFO phenomenon exists, as well as a Bigfoot phenomenon. The basis of these phenomena likely is something other than physical reality, i.e., sociological/pharmacological/psychological, etc, etc, as discussed in the alien thread.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Your logic is not entirely convincing to me, and I hate to encourage your trolling. But I'll allow an alien/UFO phenomenon exists, as well as a Bigfoot phenomenon. The basis of these phenomena likely is something other than physical reality, i.e., sociological/pharmacological/psychological, etc, etc, as discussed in the alien thread.

No because Bigfoot, Swamp man, Yeti, Skunk Ape and so are on a scale that to me is possible, but easily more accepted as when actual evidence is found and presented. Like any natural life on earth. Thus when people tell me they've seen the real thing I always find it strange how such a creature can be so elusive especially in well searched and traveled areas of the world, yet appears at random to people who happen to have no way of documenting it. Aliens/UFOs is far more difficult to have the same expectation when the known search area is the entire foreseen universe...

So yeah Bigfoot falls under that nice story would be wonderful if it existed but doubt it highly. Sort of like Trumps end goal being all that beneficial to the society he was elected in. But hey it's not like me and other yelled "THIRD PARTY OR DONT VOTE"