America - The Official Thread

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All you have to do is go back and read the exchange @LMSCorvetteGT2.

And once again you are more complaining about how conversations go rather than addressing the conversation. I see no substance, but I don't need to, carry on. So sorry I stated some facts.
 
That sound was the distinct lack of "the protesters are wrong, and should be locked up for the destruction they've caused".
Have you ever read Arthur Conan Doyle's "Silver Blaze"?

Sherlock Holmes investigates the killing of a prize-winning race horse. He deduces that the killer is someone close to the horse because the dog guarding the stables didn't bark; therefore, the killer must have been someone that the dog was familiar with and so had to be someone close to the horse. The deduction is proven right, but it's based on a logical fallacy - Holmes cites the lack of evidence as evidence in and of itself.

You have just done the same thing. You're suggesting that because I haven't condemned the protesters, I condone them. But that's not the case at all. I haven't said anything about them specifically one way or the other. If you want to take me to task over that, then that's very ambitious of you. If you want to argue "you haven't condemned them, then you must condone them", I can simply counter with "I haven't condoned them, so I must confemn them", which is predicated on the same logical fallacy that you have committed.

The only difference is that I know that you won't find any evidence of my condoning them because I haven't condoned them.
 
I know you're ignoring me but figure other people might be interested, but Milo isn't apart of the "Alt-right", he's constantly denied it and only the media and several other people have claimed he was but he never identified himself as apart of it.

Montage is shown in this joke video he made:


I think he is one of the best conservative speakers around nowadays. I don't agree with everything he says or all of his jokes, but there is not one claim he makes which isn't backed up by facts even though all the subjects he talks about are 'sensitive' or controversial. During his speeches so far you'd had the occasional SWJ who was present in the public trying to challenge him, but they all resorted to yelling or name calling as they couldn't win the argument in a normal matter.
 
It's a wild stretch to call the handful of people rioting & smashing things "liberals". The word "liberal" has become so loosely used in the US as to be meaningless. There's a cadre of self-styled "anarchists" who show up in these situations & cause chaos. Perhaps they misguidedly think they are advancing some kind of political agenda by acting that way, but what they are really accomplishing is alienating middle America & helping undermine the moderately progressive position. I think a lot of the impetus is psychological rather than "political". These extreme left groups are sort of the opposite book-end to militant right-wing groups like "militias", neo-nazis or the KKK, who also act out of anger & hate. These extreme right wing groups bear same kind of relationship to "conservatives" as the anarchist groups do to "liberals". Both groups are ultimately pretty marginal to the real political discussion, although they may attract a lot of media attention.
 
All you have to do is go back and read the exchange @LMSCorvetteGT2.

And once again you are more complaining about how conversations go rather than addressing the conversation. I see no substance, but I don't need to, carry on. So sorry I stated some facts.

What facts? You claimed I was talking or discussing off hand a law that I'd never seen nor mentioned, I'm complaining because I was never part of that conversation and all of a sudden you've placed me in it. So yeah it's troubling and quite annoying, now if you had asked me what my opinion was on said subject rather than assume that I some how made this pro-abortion claim I'd have answered.

Also since you can't be troubled to point out where I even talk about this I'll repost the original post of discussion which ultimately has to do with UC Berkley political violence/riots toward Milo in the first place.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/america-the-official-thread.54029/page-313#post-11698598
 
I think he is one of the best conservative speakers around nowadays.
If he exposes the liberal mind set that the ends justify the means then I'm for him as well, tbh I don't care for him and most likely will not pay attention.

Here is a very general statement in which I will be very sincere, or as much as I can. I believe in borders and culture and liberty, that is why I am labeled a conservative(more true reasons have been stated). I have a compassion that is probably second to none(arguable to say the least, but I think people can take care of one another without government). Ah there is the religion aspect as well and I'm not ashamed in the least to say I am a Christian.

On the other side we have people in favor of no borders or culture, they see it as an obstacle to a more prosperous humanity. It is global in nature and requires people give up freedoms, from the lasting standpoint of society and the human race itself they may be right. As such I try not to be a jerk about it even though to me it is wrong.

I'll quote something I find funny just to keep it light and in hopes some will understand. "no matter how small your loaf of bread is cut thick slices, otherwise you will always be hungry."

This recent idea of no law or order is liken to anarchy, only in my wildest dreams could I believe people can be that responsible on their own making it a very bad idea. I see an attempt to mimic the arab spring in the U.S. and say, people are dumb and don't have any idea what they are asking for.

There is a real threat in the U.S. today and it stems from idealist liberals. I've already quoted this but it is worth a second look if anyone actually understands what it means, coming from a super left comi that I've always admired.

You say you got a real solution
Well, you know
We'd all love to see the plan
You ask me for a contribution
Well, you know
We're doing what we can
 
On the other side we have people in favor of no borders or culture, they see it as an obstacle to a more prosperous humanity. It is global in nature and requires people give up freedoms, from the lasting standpoint of society and the human race itself they may be right. As such I try not to be a jerk about it even though to me it is wrong.

You don't seem to put any stock in the liberty of people to better themselves by working hard, or moving to a part of the world where they might have a better chance to achieve freedom & prosperity. The culture of the world, just like the prosperity of the world, has been immeasurably enriched by the free movement of people, idea & goods. It is, indisputably, why countries like the US & Canada & Australia have successful, flourishing societies.

Trump has cynically created a narrow-minded, pinched, fearful vision of the United States - an us-vs-them narrative - in order to further his own political ambitions.
 
You don't seem to put any stock in the liberty of people to better themselves by working hard, or moving to a part of the world where they might have a better chance to achieve freedom & prosperity. The culture of the world, just like the prosperity of the world, has been immeasurably enriched by the free movement of people, idea & goods. It is, indisputably, why countries like the US & Canada & Australia have successful, flourishing societies.

Trump has cynically created a narrow-minded, pinched, fearful vision of the United States - an us-vs-them narrative - in order to further his own political ambitions.

Why should I when I see all the desires to have their hands held?

I don't disagree with you about Trump, but just remember he was elected right? Must mean something no?
 
Trump has cynically created a narrow-minded, pinched, fearful vision of the United States - an us-vs-them narrative - in order to further his own political ambitions.

I think you're giving Trump far too much credit here as we've been heading in the "us-vs-them" direction since at least the end of the Bush administration. He certainly has found a way to get the most out of it though.
 
Milo exists only to try and piss people off. IMO, He's one step away from fedora-tipping PUAs. All I remember about him is his targeting of Leslie Jones on Twitter, only to then turn around and claim he had absolutely no part in inciting the hate towards her (over a freakin' movie, remember).

When Twitter banned him, he then did exactly what he complained about: he played the victim. He stated repeatedly that Twitter sent the message that Conservatives weren't welcome: no, just not trolls.

He's a hypocrite ... but he has just as much of a right to spew his thoughts as anybody else. These protesters are not only damaging property—ironically, a place of learning—but they're feeding directly into the idea he's spouting: that supposedly "tolerant" people are anything but. I hope they're charged for the damages.

Of course, these are probably fringe extremists, and I wouldn't attempt to suggest they're representative of an entire portion of the political spectrum. But that might be a hard sell for the people that think every Muslim is a religious fanatic, so I could see how it'd be easy for them to just assume this must be how all left-leaning folks are.

Headline's slightly misleading but not liking this series of America. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ctims-husbands-second-trimester-a7561066.html

Alright, so the title is misleading, but even the actual law is backwards. Why would a ban happen on one of the safest methods of abortion?
 
You mean the camera crew that went looking to get assaulted and then complained that they got assaulted?
Sounds an awful lot like, "you know, the girl who wore the mini-skirt and all that makeup and was just looking to get raped and then got raped?"

Examples?
You know the answer, look it up on Youtube:lol:
 
Sounds an awful lot like, "you know, the girl who wore the mini-skirt and all that makeup and was just looking to get raped and then got raped?"
In your mind, sure. In reality, it was more a case of the camera crew saying "Hey, why don't you punch me? I promise I won't accuse you of assault" and then, once they've been punched, saying "Hey, that guy assaulted me! I have it all on tape!" at which point they show the tape of them being assaulted, but not the tape of them saying "Hey, why don't you punch me?".

If you literally arrange for a crime to be committed against you, you can't claim to be the victim.
 
Yiannopolous is the public face of the alt-right movement. "Anyone who disagrees with us hates free speech" has been their mantra for some time now. It pre-dates the protests.

Seems like you're trying to pigeonhole him into a group that you disagree with instead of taking his individual and specific opinions into account.

Does he, specifically, hate free speech? Or just the people that you associate him with?
 
Seems like you're trying to pigeonhole him into a group that you disagree with instead of taking his individual and specific opinions into account.
When you become the public face of something, you speak for that something. In order for that to happen, your individual and specific opinions first have to be accepted by whatever it is that you are speaking for; in the same way, you have to accept the opinions of whatever it is that you are speaking for. If you don't accept it or it doesn't accept you, you cannot assume the position of the public face.
 
Regarding the trump immigration EO, I'm seeing news headlines saying 100,000 visas revoked. I wonder how many of those were work visas. Trump promised jobs to the US economy, he may have delivered 10s of thousands of jobs just by banning immigration from targeted nations.

Not that I'm in favor of any of that - I just haven't seen that angle reported on.

I wondered the same thing and saw this on linkedin today, they had another as well but couldn't find it.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/silver-lining-h1b-visa-reforms-ravi-venkatesan?trk=v-feed&lipi=urn:li:Page:d_flagship3_feed;5BLF2ai9ikLAknzeefnf/A==

EDIT:
Universities who actually enjoy the financial opportunity to be made on such students and those of research schools like the one I go to, who hire said students aren't too happy. Just got this email.

Students,
As you likely know, President Donald Trump issued an executive order suspending the issuance of new visas to individuals from seven countries. President Michael Crow has reiterated Arizona State University’s commitment to the inclusion of all students and the value of their contributions to our community. I want to share the statement President Crow sent to ASU faculty regarding the Jan. 27 executive order on immigration. The content of that email is below.

As the ASU Charter notes, “ASU is a comprehensive public research university, measured not by whom we exclude, but rather by whom we include and how they succeed.”

We want you to be assured of the university’s commitment to each and every student. Thank you for being a member of the ASU community.

Regards,

Mark Searle
Executive Vice President and University Provost
Arizona State University
 
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Not that I'm in favor of any of that - I just haven't seen that angle reported on.
If nothing else, the first two weeks of Trump's presidency taught us that the press needs to walk as if on eggshells around him. Suggesting that he used national security as a pretext to cancel a hundred thousand work visas and bolster employment figures in one fell swoop is a pretty serious accusation, even in less mercurial times. With Trump liable to fly off the handle and characterise any negative media as fraudulent, it would be a huge risk to publish it without any corroboration.
 
When you become the public face of something, you speak for that something.

Sure, if you've risen into that position and accepted it freely. If someone simply calls you the face of the alt-right, that doesn't make it so, whether you're a public figure or not.

I'm yet to see him admitting that this is the position he holds; on the contrary, there are numerous occasions of him claiming that he is not the face of the alt-right. Like the video that was posted. I think it's a bit rough to accuse someone of being a spokesperson for a group that they explicitly have said that they're not a spokesperson for.

I mean, if you're unwilling to take his word for it then I assume that you at least have significant evidence that he's lying. Otherwise we just disbelieve anything that anyone says ever. I could call you whatever I wanted, and no denials or rebuttals from you would make the slightest bit of difference because you're stuck with that label because I say so.

That doesn't seem like a particularly fair or logical manner of determining which groups people are actually speaking for.

While Yiannopolous may express many opinions that are compatible with the alt-right, he speaks for himself. That you would try to pin his words as those of the alt-right when he's specifically said otherwise seems...odd. Is this another one of your troll things?
 
I think you're giving Trump far too much credit here as we've been heading in the "us-vs-them" direction since at least the end of the Bush administration. He certainly has found a way to get the most out of it though.

I'm not talking about the political divide, which has been around a long time, I'm specifically talking about the protectionist attitude, combined with anti-immigrant rhetoric & the general sense that everyone in the world is out to take advantage of the United States (even countries like Australia). This is something that Trump came up with in a cynical ploy to attract votes. His own businesses take advantage of globalism with hotels & licensing deals in every part of the world, not to mention the manufacture of his clothing line.

Why should I when I see all the desires to have their hands held?

You mean like all those "snowflake" US blue collar workers who need to have their hands held because they don't work hard enough, or don't educate themselves enough to have the skills to be able to compete in the global market? The bottom line is that if someone can produce a product for less somewhere in the world, that must mean something, no? It means there are people who want that work more than US workers. It is also the way workers in other parts of the world have an opportunity to create a better life for themselves & their children. That is what conservative politicians have always promoted as the benefit of the capitalist, free-enterprise way.

The reality is that the majority of jobs lost in US manufacturing have been lost to automation - an inevitable & unstoppable trend. Automation, innovation & globalized work force will continue - these forces do put people out of work in the US, & in other developed countries, but they also provide cheap goods for the consumer & raise the living standards of hundreds of millions of people in other parts of the world. Those people then become more active consumers & lead to further job growth. International trade is a win-win situation. Protectionism is likely to become a lose-lose.

A few days ago Joey asked why he should help pay for the education of other Americans. Well, why not ask why he should pay more for goods in other to subsidize the employment of uncompetitive US businesses? Seems to me that the money would be better spent on training US workers for jobs that other workers can't do.
 
Milo exists only to try and piss people off. IMO, He's one step away from fedora-tipping PUAs. All I remember about him is his targeting of Leslie Jones on Twitter, only to then turn around and claim he had absolutely no part in inciting the hate towards her (over a freakin' movie, remember).

When Twitter banned him, he then did exactly what he complained about: he played the victim. He stated repeatedly that Twitter sent the message that Conservatives weren't welcome: no, just not trolls.
In all honesty, Leslie Jones being regarded as some innocent victim of racial bigotry was heavily exaggerated. The woman has more than a couple of questionable, race-baiting tweets herself.

I believe Milo's whole point was, "Oh, they can say that kind of stuff. But, we can't be as equally ignorant".
He's a leading figure at Brietbart and has never rejected being associated with the alt-right.
Except he has. The video has been posted in this thread. He even said it's funny how the alt-right that tends to lean towards heavily religious view points would accept a gay Jew who has a thing for black dudes.

Just because you choose to ignore the facts doesn't dismiss them.
 
A little warning at this point.

We've been keeping tabs on this latest version of @arora since he rejoined. In that time he hasn't been particularly terrible as a member but ultimately he hasn't changed his MO in any way (and still can't grasp the concept about not double-posting).

He has been behaving like an utter penis in this thread, but that's caused us a significant problem because, by and large, he's not been too far removed from the background behaviour of this thread and at times he hasn't even been the worst of it.

Perhaps he has been a disruptive influence, but there are some of you here who are skating the same thin ice as he was (his was much thinner due to his chequered history) and you really should know better. Don't celebrate or get cocky because @arora has been banned again - it just took a lower threshold for him than you.

I appreciate that, at least among the Americans in this thread, there's a lot of anger and confusion as to the direction of your nation at the moment and it may spill over occasionally. That's understandable, though it'd be preferable if there was less of the anger...

Over the years I've enjoyed this part of the site as much as anyone, and even made some friends I disagreed with from time to time (even changed my mind once), but some of you are treating it as a place to come and be angry and make enemies - then muck-rake in every thread about why you are enemies. Some of you are making this section of the site like a less profane version of a Facebook or YouTube comment string and if that's going to be the case, we may have to rethink this forum altogether (after we've thought about your posting permissions).


Posting on GTPlanet is a privilege. I'd like for people to stop abusing it - and each other.
 
I'm so confused, at PM right now and I know most of you should say I shouldn't be due to his semantics at play here. But how is it that he can claim a guy never said something when evidence was provided opposite to that, and say it as if fact. Then claim that people are accusing him of being on the side of the Berkeley rioters when no one did that, they just merely asked why he seems to be unwilling to denounce them.

Also why you (PM) seem to give an out for them (Rioters), saying basically along the lines or implying that "He (Milo) started it", I'm struggling to see how others are warped but your reasoning for not seeing Milo as a target in this scenario; furthermore, going on to say other strange things, is just that strange but not so surprising. I'm just curious what exactly is your take on the rioters, were they justified in any measure and if so, why? Oh and also how can you claim a person something when there has been evidence to support they're not that of what you claim?
 
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He's a leading figure at Brietbart and has never rejected being associated with the alt-right.

Yeah. So? Being associated doesn't make him the face of. He's openly acknowledged that many of his views and opinions are similar or identical to those of the alt-right. Again, so what?

Just because someone shares some views with a group doesn't make them the spokesperson.

As far as I can tell he's a gifted speaker and writer who has opinions that tend to often appeal to the alt-right. He's not taking his opinions from them or expressing their opinions, if anything it's the other way around.

I'm not sure I agree with much that he says, but he's thought provoking and literate and funny and sometimes charming. He makes me consider why it is that I disagree with what he says. We could do with a lot more like him and a lot less of people who think that their opinion is best expressed with fire and a baseball bat.
 
I'm not sure I agree with much that he says, but he's thought provoking and literate and funny and sometimes charming
He's certainly literate and eloquent. I don't find him to be particularly funny, but I can see why people would; he just doesn't appeal to my sense of humour. But I definitely don't think that he's thought provoking. He's never once challenged me to reconsider what I already believe. Ultimately, all I see is the same thing from him: fear of the Other. The fear that if there is merit to the way someone else lives their life, then he's living his life the wrong way, never once considering that ideas can co-exist without needing to compete with one another. And since he can't be "wrong", the only alternative is to destroy those other ideas before they destroy him. To make matters worse, he's a hypocrite. He can't champion free speech and then tarnish anyone who disagrees with him as hating free speech. Nor can he distance himself from the alt-right and then turn around and lump everyone from the left together with a generalisation as he did during the protests.

they just merely asked why he seems to be unwilling to denounce them
At first, I was completely willing to post as much. But then I noticed that more and more people were asking why I hadn't, and a thought occurred to me: we have been having a discussion that has touched on free speech. I have been repeatedly asked why I haven't denounced the protests. Reading over those comments, I am struggling to come up with a reason why. Are my opinions more legitimate if I denounce them, or less legitimate if I don't? And if so, isn't that putting a condition on my participation? It's not the same as someone saying "you can only continue to post here if you express this opinion", but I don't really see how you can continue to have that discussion about free speech when there are conditions attached.

If you read my comments, I haven't denounced them. But I haven't condoned them, despite the implication that by failing to denounce them I must therefore condone them when they are not mutually exclusive events. And I do admit that after a while, my curiosity got the better of me. I started to wonder how the conversation might play out if I said nothing one way or the other.
 
He's certainly literate and eloquent. I don't find him to be particularly funny, but I can see why people would; he just doesn't appeal to my sense of humour. But I definitely don't think that he's thought provoking. He's never once challenged me to reconsider what I already believe.

Yes, well, we get that a lot from you. Who is someone who has challenged you to reconsider what you already believe?

Besides, someone doesn't have to be thought provoking to everyone. Likely Milo isn't thought provoking to those who don't agree with him. Likely there are people who are so turned off by the tone of what he has to say that they can't dig deeper to see where he's coming from. That's fine.

He is a good enough communicator to clearly express his often controversial opinions. Controversial opinions can often be thought provoking, because they're opinions that we tend to dismiss out of hand. Actually stepping through them logically can be insightful, even if it doesn't change your mind.

He can't champion free speech and then tarnish anyone who disagrees with him as hating free speech.

That's enough. I want an actual instance of him telling someone he disagrees with that they hate free speech for no other reason than to shut them down. Telling people who are actually behaving in opposition to free speech doesn't count. Making a witty come-back doesn't count. He's a controversial figure and I'm guessing there's plenty of examples of people telling him that he can't say or print what he does.

I'm fairly sure that there will be an instance somewhere, he's a public figure and no doubt at some point he's done so. Probably everyone has from Bannon to Obama to Mahatma Ghandi. Everyone has a bad day. But I'm interested in how hard you have to look for it. If he's as incorrigible as you say it should probably be on the front page of Google or Youtube.

Reading over those comments, I am struggling to come up with a reason why. Are my opinions more legitimate if I denounce them, or less legitimate if I don't? And if so, isn't that putting a condition on my participation? It's not the same as someone saying "you can only continue to post here if you express this opinion", but I don't really see how you can continue to have that discussion about free speech when there are conditions attached.

Kinda. If you don't denounce them then you're exposed as a massive hypocrite. At which point it informs everyone that your opinions likely have no validity or rational basis whatsoever.

You can say whatever you like in answer to the question. The point is not what the answer is. The point is how it meshes with your other stated opinions, because that does indeed allow people to judge whether they should take any notice of you at all. Or if you're just trolling again.

If you read my comments, I haven't denounced them. But I haven't condoned them, despite the implication that by failing to denounce them I must therefore condone them when they are not mutually exclusive events. And I do admit that after a while, my curiosity got the better of me. I started to wonder how the conversation might play out if I said nothing one way or the other.

Which is fine to start with, but when people ask whether you might agree with denouncing them and you don't, then one starts to wonder if it's because the answer you would give undermines your position in other ways. There's no real reason to avoid giving an answer, other than your penchant for attempting to troll people and bait them into a reaction.

It'd really be nice if you'd stop that and just participate in the conversation like an ordinary person.
 
Milo exists only to try and piss people off. IMO, He's one step away from fedora-tipping PUAs. All I remember about him is his targeting of Leslie Jones on Twitter, only to then turn around and claim he had absolutely no part in inciting the hate towards her (over a freakin' movie, remember).

When Twitter banned him, he then did exactly what he complained about: he played the victim. He stated repeatedly that Twitter sent the message that Conservatives weren't welcome: no, just not trolls.
You have to give the details when you claim he targeted Leslie Jones, he wrote a bad review about that Ghostbuster movie and then compared her to one of his boyfriends if i'm not mistaken. He then got banned because of the idiots that went over to her Twitter profile and abused her racially. Something over which he doesn't have any control, and he was accused of being a racist for it.

You don't seem to put any stock in the liberty of people to better themselves by working hard, or moving to a part of the world where they might have a better chance to achieve freedom & prosperity. The culture of the world, just like the prosperity of the world, has been immeasurably enriched by the free movement of people, idea & goods. It is, indisputably, why countries like the US & Canada & Australia have successful, flourishing societies.

Here's a good illustration of the problem with open borders:

 
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You have to give the details when you claim he targeted Leslie Jones, he wrote a bad review about that Ghostbuster movie and then compared her to one of his boyfriends if i'm not mistaken. He then got banned because of the idiots that went over to her Twitter profile and abused her racially. Something over which he doesn't have any control, and he was accused of being a racist for it.



Here's a good illustration of the problem with open borders:


Wish I could like that twice. :cheers:
 
Trump really doesn't like Judges who disagree with him.

04-02-2017 14-04-57.jpg


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-tweet-immigration-bob-ferguson-a7562671.html

And he still really annoyed at the NYT.
 
Trump doesn't seem to know how the Constitution works either...

I can't see him lasting all that much longer, to be honest. And that's not really great news, as there's no really viable stand-ins - Trump's appalling behaviour is at least in the public eye and not behind closed doors.
 
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