America - The Official Thread

[Imari]

Really?

Coward is the only word that comes to my mind,

Don't be surprised. He does this all the time.

He'll make some sort of outrageous statement, but the moment that you try and dig deeper for some explanation he'll spend pages attacking you for attempting to have an actual conversation. Prisonermonkeys doesn't have well thought out opinions, he has entirely superficial opinions that suit whatever cause he's decided to attach himself to. But he's still smart enough to know that they won't stand up to any scrutiny so he avoids being drawn into a conversation about them. Unfortunately, usually by deflecting so obviously that the only reason that he gets away with it is that it's the internet and there are thousands of people just like him. Ad hominems and claiming that it's not important are two of his favourites.

It's sort of a shame, because I'd have thought that a teacher would be more familiar with it being more about the discussion and how you share and process information than the specific argument at stake. I mean, that's what they have debate clubs for; not so that half the kids can be shamed for being wrong but so that both sides can learn how to think critically and convey their arguments clearly.

And yet here we have a teacher that would go out of their way simply to avoid answering two simple questions. It took him longer to type out that post about a battle to the death than it would have to answer what you asked. Whether he's a knowing troll or simply does this stuff without thinking about it is up for discussion, but based on past behaviour you're highly unlikely to get a clear and rational discussion out of him. Probably you're not missing out on much.

 

[mister dog]

Russian narrative by the democrats is getting tiresome... Carlson rips him a new one.

 

[Northstar]

Whether he's a knowing troll or simply does this stuff without thinking about it is up for discussion,

It's actually all one giant joke us plebeians are too simple to understand.

 

[Joey D]

The problem is that Trump is a hypocrite. Legally or illegally, both Clinton and Pence used commercial servers and both compromised national security - but Trump treats them differently.

What information does Indiana have the compromises national security? The only thing they do that hurts this country is allow Gary, Indiana to exist.

 

[dylansan]

What information does Indiana have the compromises national security? The only thing they do that hurts this country is allow Gary, Indiana to exist.

I would be inclined to agree, except that it doesn't explain why they withheld a majority of the emails.

 

[Joey D]

I would be inclined to agree, except that it doesn't explain why they withheld a majority of the emails.

I think they're being withheld since Pence and team are claiming they aren't public record, therefore do not need to be released. I think it's a legal battle right now so the courts will ultimately decide.

I don't know anything about Indiana law so I'm not sure what they legally have to disclose or not. Pence was a governor though and I think most governors do some shady things so it wouldn't surprise me if there's stuff on those e-mails that isn't exactly kosher.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Trump's bogeyman announces that he didn't ever order a wiretap of any US citizen. What isn't said is that the Justice Department definitely didn't wiretap US citizens. BBC.

 

[Biggles]

@prisonermonkeys

1. Do you really believe that the Trump campaign, and Donald Trump worked with the Russians to steal the election from Clinton?

2. Do you really believe the Russians had any effect on this presidential election?

I think you've got those backwards.

2. Yes, I do think the Russians had an effect on this presidential election. I think the Russians are probably attempting to influence political events in countries all over the world .... as is the United States. How great that influence is - that is the real question. With the arrival of the internet & social media, polarized "news" sites, blogging, twitter etc. the opportunities to disseminate false information & influence popular opinion are exponentially greater than they were in the past.

I believe that, in a closely matched election, Hillary Clinton lost because of the deluge of anti-Clinton information put out, much of it false, on social media, blogs, extremist websites etc. This is apart from any shortcomings of Clinton herself, as a candidate, which were significant. The MSM were, for the most part, actively anti-Trump (which is not quite the same thing as being pro-Clinton, but amounts to the same thing in a 2-party monopoly) but the power of the "blogosphere" counteracted the efforts of the MSM. This is the first US election to have been effected by this "alternative information" stream.

1. Did Trump, or members of the Trump campaign, knowingly work with the Russians to steal the election from Clinton? I'm pretty skeptical about that, but it certainly should be investigated, because if true it would be a very serious matter.

 

[mister dog]

The Russians are now hacking the French elections too! :

https://milo.yiannopoulos.net/2017/03/french-russia-hack/

2. Yes, I do think the Russians hadment an effect on this presidential election. I think the Russians are probably attempting to influence political events in countries all over the world .... as is the United States. How great that influence is - that is the real question. With the arrival of the internet & social media, polarized "news" sites, blogging, twitter etc. the opportunities to disseminate false information & influence popular opinion are exponentially greater than they were in the past.

Yes it's not like all this resentment against how liberals have been running the show in this past decade is something which people in the US and Europe would feel naturally no? It's going great all round; we just love globalization, open borders and an overall sense of lawlessness! Dirty old Vladimir is the one influencing fragile minds and souls here.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Trump accuses Obama of wiretapping him during the campaign:

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-...ice-wire-tap-during-election-campaign/8325386

What information does Indiana have the compromises national security?

They were discussing the responses to immigration, weren't they? If ISIS got their hands on that, they could spin it for their own propaganda. After all, they're trying to push the idea that the United States doesn't trust Muslims to recruit fighters. If they had an e-mail with Pence's name on it saying that Indiana doesn't want to take immigrants, they'd hold it up as proof that the United States is opposed to Muslims in general. Whether or not that's representative of reality is beside the point - we already know that ISIS spin everything however they can.

 

[Northstar]

They were discussing the responses to immigration, weren't they? If ISIS got their hands on that, they could spin it for their own propaganda. After all, they're trying to push the idea that the United States doesn't trust Muslims to recruit fighters. If they had an e-mail with Pence's name on it saying that Indiana doesn't want to take immigrants, they'd hold it up as proof that the United States is opposed to Muslims in general. Whether or not that's representative of reality is beside the point - we already know that ISIS spin everything however they can.

Pretty sure they don't need to rely on leaked emails to recruit people considering politicians openly discuss immigration.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Maybe not, but they apparently included footage from Grand Theft Auto V in one of their videos, so why take that chance?

 

[Northstar]

Maybe not, but they apparently included footage from Grand Theft Auto V in one of their videos, so why take that chance?

Are you actually suggesting politicians shouldn't discuss immigration because ISIS might use it as a recruitment tool?


Please tell me I'm just reading this wrong!

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Are you actually suggesting politicians shouldn't discuss immigration because ISIS might use it as a recruitment tool?

I'm saying that politicians shouldn't use unsecured private e-mail services to discuss matters of state that are potentially sensitive.

 

[Northstar]

I'm saying that politicians shouldn't use unsecured private e-mail services to discuss matters of state that are potentially sensitive.

Where exactly has that happened in this case? Immigration policy isn't exactly what I would consider a confidential subject considering, once again, it's something politicians often talk about in the open.

I'm not sure you understand what a U.S. governor actually has access to either. A majority of information that's confidential is military related, something which governors play almost zero part in. They can mobilize the national guard in certain circumstances, that's about it.

 

[Joey D]

They were discussing the responses to immigration, weren't they? If ISIS got their hands on that, they could spin it for their own propaganda. After all, they're trying to push the idea that the United States doesn't trust Muslims to recruit fighters. If they had an e-mail with Pence's name on it saying that Indiana doesn't want to take immigrants, they'd hold it up as proof that the United States is opposed to Muslims in general. Whether or not that's representative of reality is beside the point - we already know that ISIS spin everything however they can.

That's a bit of a stretch. Trump has already made it abundantly clear he doesn't want refugees in the US and with out lovely media calling the immigration ban a "Muslim Ban", I don't really think some e-mails from Pence is really going to change anything. If ISIS needs leaked e-mails to bolster their recruitment numbers when the head of the country they are supposedly against is publicly denouncing pretty much everything they stand for, then they are doing worse then I thought and we should almost have them beat.

I'm saying that politicians shouldn't use unsecured private e-mail services to discuss matters of state that are potentially sensitive.

The governor of a state doesn't really have access to things that would be considered sensitive to national security. As I've said, it's dumb for a politicians to use a public server for their e-mail communications, but just by the nature of how our country is setup, governors don't really have a ton of power over anything other than their state. Worse thing anyone was really going to find out is shady doings of the governor to either get X company in their state or to sweep some state issue under the rug, neither affects national security.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Trump has already made it abundantly clear he doesn't want refugees in the US

And Trump is easily dismissed. Look at the way the global media address him - most of the time, he's treated as a buffoon. But Pence is seen as the capable, intelligent and articulate one. He's also very much a part of the system, given that Trump has never held public office before. From a certain perspective, Pence's words have more weight to them.

 

[TenEightyOne]

But Pence is seen as the capable, intelligent and articulate one.

Really? I guess it's a relative thing!

 

[Tornado]

They were discussing the responses to immigration, weren't they? If ISIS got their hands on that, they could spin it for their own propaganda

I'm saying that politicians shouldn't use unsecured private e-mail services to discuss matters of state that are potentially sensitive.

So are you just some sort of left-wing version of Trump, saying whatever stream of consciousness nonsense comes to mind without even basic fact checking applied?

Even if we go by the laughably obtuse string of logic that a governor of a state saying in a private email that he doesn't want Syrian refugees in his state is a catalyst for terrorism and thus compromises national security the same way mishandling federally classified documents does, Mike Pence's stance on Muslim refugees is not some national security secret that ISIS would need to hack into his emails to get.

 

[Joey D]

And Trump is easily dismissed. Look at the way the global media address him - most of the time, he's treated as a buffoon. But Pence is seen as the capable, intelligent and articulate one. He's also very much a part of the system, given that Trump has never held public office before. From a certain perspective, Pence's words have more weight to them.

Trump isn't easily dismissed, he's the President and can actually carry out policy. Pence doesn't hold much weight in the grand scheme of things and is less important than the President. When Pence was governor he held even less weight than he does now.

Plus as Tornado points out, it's not like it's some big secret that Pence didn't want refugees in his state.

So really, Pence getting his e-mail account hacked isn't a concern for national security. It's a concern for the government of Indiana and all the Hooisers living there, but for the rest of the US, it doesn't really affect us in anyway.

 

[Grayfox]

Trumpet tweeted that "Obama wiretapped his phones"

http://www.9news.com.au/World/2017/...es-Obama-of-tapping-his-phone-during-campaign

Can someone sue POTUS for slander or defamation?
Would be interesting to see.

 

[Northstar]

Neither President Obama nor any White House official ever ordered surveillance on any US citizen. Any suggestion otherwise is simply false," Obama spokesman Kevin Lewis said in a statement.

 

[Pillo-san]

What is so funny?

Under which president did this spy on your citizens business start I wonder? Things proceeded as before when Obama took over. And I doubt that in this context Obama did send out an order to spy on Trump.

 

[Northstar]

What is so funny?

The fact that Obama's spokesperson apparently forgot 2013, it was not a good year for Obama in the surveillance department.

Under which president did this spy on your citizens business start I wonder?

Washington I'd imagine (he had spies in New York during the Revolutionary war at least).

And I doubt that in this context Obama did send out an order to spy on Trump.

As do I. That doesn't change the fact Obama is far from innocent in the "spying on citizens" catagory, as James Rosen can attest to.

 

[McLaren]

Trump accuses Obama of wiretapping him during the campaign:

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-...ice-wire-tap-during-election-campaign/8325386


They were discussing the responses to immigration, weren't they? If ISIS got their hands on that, they could spin it for their own propaganda. After all, they're trying to push the idea that the United States doesn't trust Muslims to recruit fighters. If they had an e-mail with Pence's name on it saying that Indiana doesn't want to take immigrants, they'd hold it up as proof that the United States is opposed to Muslims in general. Whether or not that's representative of reality is beside the point - we already know that ISIS spin everything however they can.

You tried this argument before with ISIS using the "Muslim" ban as propaganda & how we shouldn't impose it because terrorists might get upset about it. Now you're presenting it again that we shouldn't discuss immigration on private e-mails because ISIS, "might say something bad about us. Waahhh!"

The argument is still as dumb as it was last time. Actual civilian deaths will always make for better propaganda than a bunch of e-mails.

 

[Imari]

As do I. That doesn't change the fact Obama is far from innocent in the "spying on citizens" catagory, as James Rosen can attest to.

I could see the Kevin Lewis statement having been true, but only in a technical sense. Maybe Obama and the White House didn't order surveillance, they simply made their wishes known and hoped that someone else would take action of their own accord. Or they just created a system where everyone is surveilled, and therefore it's unnecessary to order the specific surveillance of any one person.

We do know that the government spied on many, many Americans and those orders came from somewhere. Obama knew what was going on, and so whether he ordered it explicitly or not it kind of beside the point.

 

[Northstar]

I could see the Kevin Lewis statement having been true, but only in a technical sense. Maybe Obama and the White House didn't order surveillance, they simply made their wishes known and hoped that someone else would take action of their own accord. Or they just created a system where everyone is surveilled, and therefore it's unnecessary to order the specific surveillance of any one person.

We do know that the government spied on many, many Americans and those orders came from somewhere. Obama knew what was going on, and so whether he ordered it explicitly or not it kind of beside the point.

I guess, what good is a cabinet if they can't give you plausible deniability?

 

[McLaren]

Trumpet tweeted that "Obama wiretapped his phones"

http://www.9news.com.au/World/2017/...es-Obama-of-tapping-his-phone-during-campaign

Can someone sue POTUS for slander or defamation?
Would be interesting to see.

Wouldn't be the first time Obama was accused of it by a leader.

 

[Touring Mars]

Obama ordered absolutely No Surveillance at All...

The irony is that they can't now come out and say 'we have hard evidence that Trump is in cahoots with the Russians' because that would prove that they are not only collecting and keeping data on private individuals but are prepared to use it as and when it becomes politically expedient to do so.

 

[BobK]

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