America - The Official Thread

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BobK
Something I found elsewhere on the internet:
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You seem surprised that political nutjobs are able to be hypocritical. It's basically a requirement to be a nutjob.

McLaren
Per the hearing, he said he would hope he would drop the investigation. He never asked. You're wrong once more.
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You should watch some gangster movies. I think it'll educate you in some of the ways that language can be used to express more than it's literal meaning based on context and assumed knowledge.

If the mob boss says "I hope that Vinnie is sleeping with the fishes by tomorrow night" to his enforcers and Vinnie is someone with whom the boss has a known disagreement, that's a pretty clear order. If the enforcers don't go out and kill Vinnie, things will not go well for them. Claiming that the boss didn't spell it out precisely is not an excuse. It's assumed that they can put two and two together.
 
Imari
You seem surprised that political nutjobs are able to be hypocritical. It's basically a requirement to be a nutjob.



You should watch some gangster movies. I think it'll educate you in some of the ways that language can be used to express more than it's literal meaning based on context and assumed knowledge.

If the mob boss says "I hope that Vinnie is sleeping with the fishes by tomorrow night" to his enforcers and Vinnie is someone with whom the boss has a known disagreement, that's a pretty clear order. If the enforcers don't go out and kill Vinnie, things will not go well for them. Claiming that the boss didn't spell it out precisely is not an excuse. It's assumed that they can put two and two together.
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Also it should be noted, that Comey's opening statements set the ground work for how others should view how he understood the rhetoric of Trump. Which is what is important.

Comey himself talked about how he knew that the President had the power to fire him for a reason or no reason at all and thus it confused him why he was fired, and that the reasons given to media didn't hold water. So when asked questions like the one we're all discussing, "hope" is like your parent or someone of authority more so suggesting than actually having hope
 
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Imari
If the mob boss says "I hope that Vinnie is sleeping with the fishes by tomorrow night" to his enforcers and Vinnie is someone with whom the boss has a known disagreement, that's a pretty clear order. If the enforcers don't go out and kill Vinnie, things will not go well for them. Claiming that the boss didn't spell it out precisely is not an excuse. It's assumed that they can put two and two together.
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So then why did no one push him to clarify that? As far as the media outlets seem concerned, they're either upset or happy he said "hope" and not "do".
 
McLaren
So then why did no one push him to clarify that? As far as the media outlets seem concerned, they're either upset or happy he said "hope" and not "do".
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Push who?

Trump? Trump says he never said anything of the sort.
Comey? Comey has been clear about what he understood the statement to mean. He intended both to not obey, if that's the correct verb, and to attempt to avoid any repercussions by trying to get Trump to interact with him through the Attorney General, as Trump should have been doing.

From Comey's opening statement:

I immediately prepared an unclassified memo of the conversation about Flynn and discussed the matter with FBI senior leadership. I had understood the President to be requesting that we drop any investigation of Flynn in connection with false statements about his conversations with the Russian ambassador in December. I did not understand the President to be talking about the broader investigation into Russia or possible links to his campaign. I could be wrong, but I took him to be focusing on what had just happened with Flynn’s departure and the controversy around his account of his phone calls. Regardless, it was very concerning, given the FBI’s role as an independent investigative agency.
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http://www.npr.org/2017/06/07/53164...ent-for-senate-intelligence-hearing-annotated

The reason why leaders speak of such things using euphemisms and minimising language is so that if they're brought to account they can attempt to plead the exact sort of "misunderstandings" that you're putting forth here. We all know what Trump meant. Nobody in their right mind would call Comey into the office and say "Drop the Flynn investigation or you're fired". That would be insane. If one wanted that done, one would couch it in softer, vaguer language and rely on the fact that anyone who has risen to the position of Director of FBI can understand basic nuance. I mean, why would the President express his hopes to his FBI Director unless he expected Comey to do something about it? It's not like they have a close personal relationship.

Trump clearly doesn't understand that some people might view themselves as independent actors and not beholden to him personally or to a political party. Comey obviously saw this coming a mile away which is why he took notes on everything and discussed it with work colleagues at the time to boot. Trump is going to have a hell of a time discrediting a witness like Comey. If it comes to he said, she said between Trump and Comey, everyone knows that Trump lies like a rug.

As far as I can tell, Comey serves America. Trump serves Trump. I hope Trump drags his tapes out so that we can all hear what was said.
 
Imari
Push who?

Trump? Trump says he never said anything of the sort.
Comey? Comey has been clear about what he understood the statement to mean. He intended both to not obey, if that's the correct verb, and to attempt to avoid any repercussions by trying to get Trump to interact with him through the Attorney General, as Trump should have been doing.

From Comey's opening statement:



http://www.npr.org/2017/06/07/53164...ent-for-senate-intelligence-hearing-annotated

The reason why leaders speak of such things using euphemisms and minimising language is so that if they're brought to account they can attempt to plead the exact sort of "misunderstandings" that you're putting forth here. We all know what Trump meant. Nobody in their right mind would call Comey into the office and say "Drop the Flynn investigation or you're fired". That would be insane. If one wanted that done, one would couch it in softer, vaguer language and rely on the fact that anyone who has risen to the position of Director of FBI can understand basic nuance. I mean, why would the President express his hopes to his FBI Director unless he expected Comey to do something about it? It's not like they have a close personal relationship.

Trump clearly doesn't understand that some people might view themselves as independent actors and not beholden to him personally or to a political party. Comey obviously saw this coming a mile away which is why he took notes on everything and discussed it with work colleagues at the time to boot. Trump is going to have a hell of a time discrediting a witness like Comey. If it comes to he said, she said between Trump and Comey, everyone knows that Trump lies like a rug.

As far as I can tell, Comey serves America. Trump serves Trump. I hope Trump drags his tapes out so that we can all hear what was said.
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I guess the media doesn't because FOX News is going on that Trump's use of the word, "hope" clears him of directly asking Comey to drop the investigation against Flynn, therefore, he's innocent, & CNN is upset because the use of the word, "hope" clears him, therefore, goes another reason to impeach him.

If by using the word "hope", he really meant, "drop it", did any of senators attempt to present the same reasoning you've presented? I'm genuinely asking because I understand your point, but I'm not seeing much in the way that anyone in the hearing saw it as an euphemism and thought it was still a solid piece of evidence that Comey was pressured to drop Flynn's investigation, meaning Trump's name wasn't cleared.
 
McLaren
I guess the media doesn't because FOX News is going on that Trump's use of the word, "hope" clears him of directly asking Comey to drop the investigation against Flynn
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Forgive me if today isn't the day that I begin take Murdoch's editorial understanding of language as definitive, or to see FOX news as "the media" in its entirety.

McLaren
If by using the word "hope", he really meant, "drop it", did any of senators attempt to present the same reasoning you've presented?
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We don't know, only the public hearing was publicly minuted. The rest was in camera.
 
McLaren
If by using the word "hope", he really meant, "drop it", did any of senators attempt to present the same reasoning you've presented? I'm genuinely asking because I understand your point, but I'm not seeing much in the way that anyone in the hearing saw it as an euphemism and thought it was still a solid piece of evidence that Comey was pressured to drop Flynn's investigation, meaning Trump's name wasn't cleared.
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I don't know. I haven't had a chance to watch through the two and a half hour publically presented hearing. I'll get to it at some point, but I'd rather get my information first hand on this matter than skip through media digests. As you've noted, there's a lot of people with their own barrows to push when it comes to Comey and Trump.

And as @TenEightyOne has pointed out, a significant portion of the hearings are not and likely will never be available to us because they contain classified information. We might one day be able to infer important parts of those hearings from the results of them, but that would be about it.

I'll be interested to see what they ask Trump when he gives his hearing, and how he answers. At the very least it will be interesting. Trump goes off script and starts ranting very easily, and I think there's a lot of rope available for him to hang himself simply because he doesn't appear to understand the system and legalities of what he's doing. Comey on the other hand rose to his position organically, and presumably understands the situation as well as anyone. I'd imagine the FBI director would have to have a substantial legal knowledge.
 
Imari
I don't know. I haven't had a chance to watch through the two and a half hour publically presented hearing. I'll get to it at some point, but I'd rather get my information first hand on this matter than skip through media digests. As you've noted, there's a lot of people with their own barrows to push when it comes to Comey and Trump.

And as @TenEightyOne has pointed out, a significant portion of the hearings are not and likely will never be available to us because they contain classified information. We might one day be able to infer important parts of those hearings from the results of them, but that would be about it.

I'll be interested to see what they ask Trump when he gives his hearing, and how he answers. At the very least it will be interesting. Trump goes off script and starts ranting very easily, and I think there's a lot of rope available for him to hang himself simply because he doesn't appear to understand the system and legalities of what he's doing. Comey on the other hand rose to his position organically, and presumably understands the situation as well as anyone. I'd imagine the FBI director would have to have a substantial legal knowledge.
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Exactly what I've been saying all along, considering many of these directors are not first and foremost apart of the FBI but from other aspect of legal work like lawyers and such. Which the nominee for next director is and I believe Comey himself and his predecessor. So for a guy like Trump that has an Army of Lawyers on the pay roll to take care of it and now an additional platoon just for the President himself, it would be wise yet again for Trump to do as told and not his regular bit of "I know more than you all, I got this"

Comey knows the law even if he doesn't try to wear said hat especially during this hearing, Trump doesn't, nor has he seemed to ever want to try.

ryzno
Comey serves Comey. Have we forgotten about the Hillary investigation already?
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He doesn't prosecute her, so you dislike him, he reopens up an investigation (which I would still argue didn't matter) during the late stages of an election and you jump for joy. Heads an investigation on potential Russian meddling, and during his hearing hints at Russia being the evil empire and something that will keep coming around, as if out of the Regan era.

Yet you still hate him because you like Trump...talk about the bias.

I don't see how Comey isn't serving the American public
 
ryzno
Comey serves Comey. Have we forgotten about the Hillary investigation already?
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Although I think Comey has an axe to grind with Trump right now & has been doing some questionable things out of his own reasons, I think back then, Comey got caught up trying to do what he felt was right. Remember, he did reopen that investigation.

I think his closing of it again was due facing massive pressure from both sides to do what they wanted. I don't think Comey purposely put himself in such a nasty situation.
 
ryzno
Comey serves Comey. Have we forgotten about the Hillary investigation already?
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How did that serve Comey's interests? I assume you mean that it was beneficial for the Republicans, in which case you mean that Comey serves the Republicans rather than himself.

However, he's said that he believed he was under obligation to tell Congress that matters had changed with regards to Clinton.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/22/us/politics/james-comey-election.html

You may consider that a lie, but if true then this is again a sign that he does what serves the country over what serves political interests. I'm not saying that his handling of the matter was correct, I'd have preferred that the entire Clinton thing stay under wraps until they were done with it as is standard FBI policy. But given that the horse had already bolted, I can see the reasoning behind sending the letter to Congress and it doesn't seem to include much in the way of personal interests.

McLaren
Although I think Comey has an axe to grind with Trump right now...
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I'm sure he does. He's no longer a government employee, and so is much more free to stick it to him. And I suspect from what I've read of Comey's personality and what his view of the American governmental system seems to be, that he'll now personally have an interest in sticking it to Trump, who appears to be turning what was a reasonably functional system arse over teakettle. Trump wasn't interfering with independent government agencies before the election, but he sure is now.

ryzno
I'm sure he does. He just lost what he thought was 6 more years of pay.
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With respect to the firing, I'd imagine that the loss of the position and the attendant benefits in terms of connections and information would be more cutting than the loss of pay. Comey will walk into a job somewhere else, if he wants to, and as others have pointed out he's hardly living hand to mouth. The damage is more the loss of that particular job, one which traditionally hasn't been subject to partisan politics.[/QUOTE]
 
Reversing Abortion. I'll just put a quote from the article.
The only problem, according to several doctors I spoke to, is that there is scant medical evidence that the procedure works. Based only on anecdotal accounts from pro-life doctors and a small case study, the abortion pill reversal protocol is experimental at best, they say. But that hasn’t stopped conservative state legislatures from trying to push through laws requiring doctors to tell their patients that, should they regret their abortions, they might be able to undo them.
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Dennisch
It's all a grand scheme to have more sex.
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tumblr_m164sc3My41qj09vg.gif
 
Everyone's gonna read that thinking we've cracked the code to resurrection when really it's just a really badly worded way of saying don't get an abortion.
 
Former Official: Obama Admin ‘Systematically Disbanded’ Units Investigating Iran’s Terrorism Financing Networks
Snippets:
The Obama administration "systematically disbanded" law enforcement investigative units across the federal government focused on disrupting Iranian, Syrian, and Venezuelan terrorism financing networks out of concern the work could cause friction with Iranian officials and scuttle the nuclear deal with Iran, according to a former U.S. official who spent decades dismantling terrorist financial networks. David Asher, who previously served as an adviser to Gen. John Allen at the Defense and State Departments, told the House Foreign Affairs Committee Thursday that top officials across several key law enforcement and intelligence agencies in the Obama administration "systematically disbanded" law enforcement activities targeting the terrorism financing operations of Iran, Hezbollah, and Venezuela in the lead-up to and during the nuclear negotiations with Tehran.
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He attributed the motivation for decisions to dismantle the investigative units to "concerns about interfering with the Iran deal," a reference to the nuclear deal forged between the U.S., five other world powers, and Iran during the final years of the Obama administration. As a result, "several top cops" retired and the U.S. government lost their years of expertise. The United States squandered the chance "at a very low financial cost" to take apart Hezbollah's finances, its global organization, and the Iran proxy's ability to "readily terrorize us, victimize us, and run a criminal network through our shores, inside our banking systems—and in partnership with the world's foremost drug cartels—target our state and society," he said.
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