America - The Official Thread

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Thought about posting this in a few other threads, but for the most part the video is about American views of science, so it seemed relevant here. As much as I like the message, I think also that we have to be careful about over-stepping based on scientific findings that have weak underpinnings and aren't well tested. So on the one hand we have evolution (mentioned in the video), which has been studied for hundreds of years and has accurately predicted future findings and has been beaten to death over and over by countless individuals across many fields. On the other hand you have anthropogenic global warming (or climate change, whatever), which is still new by comparison, and is currently still struggling with predictions into the future. Neil (and I have a lot of respect for him) talks about coming to understanding of the science so that you can make the policy decisions that should have been made years ago. But I'm not convinced that we can make big climate policy decisions (the ones usually talked about) based on the shaky foundation we have today, or had years ago. That foundation is getting stronger every minute though, and it will eventually be a very solid area of scientific understanding. If the policy decisions are to encourage study of it, great, I'm fine with that. If our policy decisions are to forecast our current models well into the future and try to mitigate the effects we expect to see 40 years from now, I'm not sure we're smart enough yet. The proof is in the data, we need accurate models from 10-20 years ago that hit their marks today.

So on that one issue, I hesitate. The rest of the video is, of course, spot on. People need to understand that reality is not based on your opinion.
 
Conformation
I'd like to look at that question with a more fundamental wording that avoids specific individuals.


It looks to me like a nonsense question. I don't see the value in suggesting that art doesn't have a place if we happen not to like that particular art.
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prisonermonkeys
You expect to make a meaningful assessment of the entire play based on an extract of a single scene? You have to look at the play as a whole.

The assassination of Caesar does not close out the play the way the deaths of other characters in the Shakespearean canon - like Othello, Hamlet, Macbeth or Romeo and Juliet - do. It actually happens very early in the play. The characters who assassinate Caesar justify their actions as a necessary evil to protect Rome, but when they take over, they're arguably just as bad as Caesar was when he was in power.
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Let's dial this conversation back to the original context the quote referencing the Caesar play was cherry-picked from because I think my message is being taken out of context. This is last paragraph of my original post:

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I expect every House member, every Senate member, every Mayor of every major City and every State Governor to condemn this act of political violence RIGHT NOW or they should hand in their resignation if they are unwilling to do that. Everything has a price, Kathy beheading Trump, Trumps assassination during the Caesar play, the vitriol and everything else eventually will inspire acts of violence such as this. It's gone too far now. And I can guarantee right now that some right wing extremists are sitting around saying 'if they shoot our people then let's go shoot theirs' . We need recognize right here and now that this is not what we want going forward, this is not how we move forward as a nation as a country. It's time to dial everything back about 10 notches and focus on what we can do together, not what we disagree with each other on.
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I am asking for one thing that I believe needs to happen immediately: The people in leadership roles need to categorically condemn political acts of violence starting with the one that occurred this week. You have leaders and you have followers, if the leaders don't make a strong statement against the shooting of elected leaders then the followers won't get the message that this is simply not ok, no matter how much they disagree with elected leaders from the opposite party.

And two, I'm suggesting that everything has a price, you are going to have extremists on both sides that will interpret things their own way, violent images of a decapitated Trump and Trump being stabbed are both irresponsible, and incredibly poor taste. I am by no means saying that we should censor art, what I am essentially saying is that everything has a cost and this certainly doesn't help dial back the hateful rhetoric being spewed by both sides. The common expression: 'You're not helping right now' about sums up my feelings on this.
 
Dotini
There is an upsurge of extreme left wing violence not seen since the seventies.
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There were lots of protests in the seventies but I don't recall a higher level of violence back then. Unless you're including Watts-type riots as "left wing".

Yes I realize Watts was in 1965.
 
Conformation
What's happened?
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"There is an upsurge of extreme left wing violence not seen since the seventies." That's what I heard in an NPR broadcast on the topic of current left wing violence. This is a rare and welcome dose of potentially more real news from my smugly biased favorite national radio network. Albeit they did qualify their news with the statistic that only 4% of the total violence was extreme left wing while 75% was extreme right wing.

They cited the Scalise incident, but dwelled extensively on the antics of an organization that I'd only recently ever heard of - Antifa. These self-ordained "antifascists" have been active up and down the west coast confronting right wing or pro-Trump rallies with masked men armed with nail-spiked clubs, said NPR.

@BobK, it might be interesting, but painful for me personally, to even begin to delve into the murk of left wing violence of the late sixties and early seventies. I was there. I saw it up close from both sides, believe it or not.
 
Dotini
They cited the Scalise incident, but dwelled extensively on the antics of an organization that I'd only recently ever heard of - Antifa.
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That's not a single organisation as such, it's a wider term that incorporates anti-fascist groups or individuals. Interestingly it's a designation that's often handed down by right-wing discourse rather than self-claimed.
 
ryzno
Hillary brought that up...
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In fairness, it's been mostly agreed by some fact checking sites that her supporters brought it up because of an e-mail chain & a memo from Clinton's former aide Mark Penn stating Obama had a, "lack of American roots".

Thus, they agree that she didn't start it, but at best, Penn & candidate Andy Martin started the movement.
 
Johnnypenso
I don't think it's too far fetched to say that most of the Democrats and most of the left leaning MSM are working together in some fashion to bring down the President.
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When he was first elected I would say you're right, however now, I don't think so. Trump is working against himself to bring himself down through Twitter. The media doesn't need to help him dig his own grave. If Trump wasn't such an blow hard he'd have less issues with the media and probably the population in general.

Also I found this amusing:


Especially when Trump himself described the place: “It’s nice, you’d like it,” he told the Time of London and the German newspaper Bild . “You know how long you’d like it? For about 30 minutes.” Source from Miami Herald because it's free.

Surprised he could take himself away from his swanky Florida resort that he treats like the southern White House long enough to enjoy some "rustic" camping.
 
Johnnypenso
I don't think it's too far fetched to say that most of the Democrats and most of the left leaning MSM are working together in some fashion to bring down the President.
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It might be. However, it would seem sensible to say that representatives of Viewpoint X would be happy if President Y fell from power, and vice versa.
 
Johnnypenso
Is this you agreeing it is a conspiracy against Trump after all and this is the root cause?
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Nope. Just pointing out that he's hardly a pariah.

Besides, assuming for the moment that there is absolutely no connection between Trump and the Russians, he can still be found guilty of obstruction if he tried to interfere with the course of the investigation. He seems convinced that they're mutually-inclusive events.

Joey D
Trump is working against himself to bring himself down through Twitter.
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Twitter is simply the medium by which this is unfolding. Trump seems to have an inability to take criticism and a pathological need to have the final say. And now here he is, yelling at the television and claiming conspiracy. If you or I did that, we'd have people questioning our sanity.
 
Joey D
When he was first elected I would say you're right, however now, I don't think so. Trump is working against himself to bring himself down through Twitter. The media doesn't need to help him dig his own grave. If Trump wasn't such an blow hard he'd have less issues with the media and probably the population in general.

Also I found this amusing:


Especially when Trump himself described the place: “It’s nice, you’d like it,” he told the Time of London and the German newspaper Bild . “You know how long you’d like it? For about 30 minutes.” Source from Miami Herald because it's free.

Surprised he could take himself away from his swanky Florida resort that he treats like the southern White House long enough to enjoy some "rustic" camping.
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All true. Still doesn't rule out a conspiracy though. Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean you aren't being followed.:sly:
prisonermonkeys
Nope. Just pointing out that he's hardly a pariah.

Besides, assuming for the moment that there is absolutely no connection between Trump and the Russians, he can still be found guilty of obstruction if he tried to interfere with the course of the investigation. He seems convinced that they're mutually-inclusive events.
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I'm sure there are plenty of connections, it is a global economy after all. But no evidence has been found of any collusion so there's no need to assume anything. Trump can hire and fire and pardon whom he pleases. He can also order investigations to be stopped. Comey even acknowledged these facts in his statements. You can't obstruct when you have the power to do everything he's done so far. It's nothing but ginned up faked news. Nothing will come of it.
 
Johnnypenso
But no evidence has been found of any collusion so there's no need to assume anything.
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Yet. Just because something hasn't been found, that doesn't mean that there is nothing to be found at all. That's what Mueller's job is - to figure out if there is anything to substantiate the claim.

Johnnypenso
He can also order investigations to be stopped.
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He can, but that becomes a problem if he orders an investigation to be stopped because it might be damaging to him.

Johnnypenso
You can't obstruct when you have the power to do everything he's done so far.
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You don't think it's in the national interest for there to be an investigation into Russian interference in the election? Multiple intelligence agencies have cited their actions, both in the United States and abroad. Just a few weeks ago, we were discussing Russian involvement in a cache of e-mails about Emmanuel Macron being published. With cyberspace being the battleground of the twenty-first century, the power of the internet to sway public opinion snd the Russians getting the jump on everyone, it's definitely an area that needs to be explored.

Have you ever asked why Trump doesn't want an investigation? Every intelligence agency says that it's happening, but Trump insists that it isn't. It's because he's afraid that if it's ever proven that Russia did interfere, he'll be seen as an illegitimate President. So what's more important - national security or one man's ego?
 
prisonermonkeys
He can.
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Yes he can, and the rest is politics. Note also that the firing of Comey has in no way affected the investigation either. It proceeds, full steam ahead.

You don't think it's in the national interest for there to be an investigation into Russian interference in the election? Multiple intelligence agencies have cited their actions, both in the United States and abroad. Just a few weeks ago, we were discussing Russian involvement in a cache of e-mails about Emmanuel Macron being published. With cyberspace being the battleground of the twenty-first century, the power of the internet to sway public opinion snd the Russians getting the jump on everyone, it's definitely an area that needs to be explored.

Have you ever asked why Trump doesn't want an investigation? Every intelligence agency says that it's happening, but Trump insists that it isn't. It's because he's afraid that if it's ever proven that Russia did interfere, he'll be seen as an illegitimate President. So what's more important - national security or one man's ego?
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They've been investigating for months and haven't found a single piece of evidence of collusion that affected the election. Of course the Russians and everyone else should be investigated for what effect, if any, they had on the election.
 
DDastardly00
Be that as it may, it is a meaningful and relevant to question whether a violent depiction of a trump-like figure in place of Julius Caesar is appropriate in this hyper-partisan age. Imagine if it was Obama, would the left be singing the same tune? You and I both know they wouldn't.
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Northstar
Umm...

I remember hearing a little about it when it debuted, but not any more than the usual Guthrie plays.
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Saw this same conversation about a thousand times during the last week. Odd that there's never a response from the outraged Republican...
 
huskeR32
Saw this same conversation about a thousand times during the last week. Odd that there's never a response from the outraged Republican...
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I didn't see the link until just now, I guess I was too busy dragging my post that contained the cherry picked quote back on topic, but you may find this interesting, it's an article written by Robert Melrose, the director of the 2012 play, and he's comparing it to the 2017 version. It's very interesting, seems that there were glaring differences between the two productions, perhaps that's why there was no outrage 5 years ago compared to now.

https://medium.com/@robmelrose/obama-trump-caesar-f81bf985ac67

It's a good, well-written piece in which he defends theater in general (as a place to debate topics) and the 2017 Caesar production.

Some key takeaways:

Our Obama-inspired production also didn’t have any gestures that tipped our hand to say “this is definitely Obama.” We wanted to make sure audiences could make the Obama connection if they wanted to — or could ignore the connections if they only wanted to live inside in the circumstances of Shakespeare’s play. In Eustis’s production, the Trump connections are more overt : Caesar wears an overly long red tie, Calpurnia speaks with a Slovenian accent (or “Slavic” if you are writing for Breitbart).
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Ok, so in 2012, it kind of was Obama but not really that distinct, just vague enough to not offend. While in 2017 it was much more obvious that it was Trump and Melania with the reference to her Slovenian accent.

"Regardless of the politics of the director, actors, or audience, the moment of this latest Caesar’s assassination is shocking and horrific."
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This last bit is particularly interesting and I think it really hits the nail on the head. Melrose is saying the assassination scene (of a Trump-like character) is a lot more gruesome than in his production in 2012. It's a bloody and savage compared to his far cleaner treatment of the scene. My guess is that is why the 2012 play didn't cause outrage or even make headlines and this one in 2017 did. The accounts I have read from People who saw it said there was blood flying everywhere and it was very gruesome to watch.

As far as the outraged Republican remark, I have zero political affiliations and to quite frankly, I do not believe you need to have an affiliation to be offended by the assassination of a caricature of a sitting POTUS. If SNL had a skit of Obama being lynched I would be just as offended.
 
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DDastardly00
My guess is that is why the 2012 play didn't cause outrage or even make headlines and this one in 2017 did. The accounts I have read from People who saw it said there was blood flying everywhere and it was very gruesome to watch.
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On the subject of why the difference in outrage, I see that you offer your own take, yet omit the one offered by the source you use.

"I think one key difference in the corporate response to the two productions is simply that most people who wrote about and talked about our production — the one with an Obama-inspired Caesar — actually saw the show, where it is clear that most of those outraged by The Public Theater’s Trumpian emperor either didn’t see the play or didn’t stay to the end.

The Breitbart article that started the controversy is — I kid you not — a review by someone who talked to someone who saw the show. This second-order correspondent also thinks the play ends with the death of Caesar, as if they are killing the bad guy at the end of a superhero movie. In fact, the assassination takes place in the middle of the play, the rest of which deals with the terrible consequences of this action. Shakespeare built the outrage into the text. Mark Antony is so outraged — for himself, and on our behalf — that outrage suffuses the play’s entire second half. If you see a production, you get outraged with the play, not against it."

Which indicates that much of this is down to the outrage of people who haven't even seen it, and stems from an article by a source well known for politically motivated bias.
 
Scaff
"Mark Antony is so outraged — for himself, and on our behalf — that outrage suffuses the play’s entire second half."
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Indeed.

The play is actually quite neutral on the subject of whether Caesar is a villain or a liberator for Rome. You can easily build a case for either. The conspirators plead their case, but Antony manipulates the narrative to turn the people against them. The play ultimately concludes that however justified the conspirators may have been, each of them had a personal stake in the assasaination that undermines their cause. It is only Brutus who is vindicated because he is the only one who genuinely believed that he was acting for Rome, and he is the only one who makes a sacrifice in carrying out the assassination. Caesar's final lines imply that it was not the knife that killed him, but the knowledge that Brutus had turned on him that robbed him of the will to live.
 
DDastardly00
It's very interesting, seems that there were glaring differences between the two productions, perhaps that's why there was no outrage 5 years ago compared to now.
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I gave it a read - thanks for the article, by the way - and I'm not sure I'd call the differences glaring.

DDastardly00
Rob Melrose
Our Obama-inspired production also didn’t have any gestures that tipped our hand to say “this is definitely Obama.” We wanted to make sure audiences could make the Obama connection if they wanted to — or could ignore the connections if they only wanted to live inside in the circumstances of Shakespeare’s play. In Eustis’s production, the Trump connections are more overt : Caesar wears an overly long red tie, Calpurnia speaks with a Slovenian accent (or “Slavic” if you are writing for Breitbart).
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Ok, so in 2012, it kind of was Obama but not really that distinct, just vague enough to not offend. While in 2017 it was much more obvious that it was Trump and Melania with the reference to her Slovenian accent.
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The Obama character holding a basketball is just as much of a tipoff as a long red tie is for Trump. (And while we're at it, Michelle's tendency to wear sleeveless tops isn't really any less identifiable than Melania's accent.)

IMO, both productions were pretty clear about the true identity of their Caesar; arguing otherwise essentially suggests that viewers are too dumb to realize what they're being shown, and I disagree.

DDastardly00
The accounts I have read from People who saw it said there was blood flying everywhere and it was very gruesome to watch.
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If you want the fulcrum of the debate to be on the differences between PG-13 and R, I'm going to pass. Killing a president is killing a president. More blood is a stylistic difference that doesn't alter the statement being made one iota.

It's also worth echoing what Scaff pointed out - most folks outraged about this are outraged because Breitbart told them to be; they haven't seen it, and pretty clearly don't understand the overall point of Julius Caesar in the first place.

DDastardly00
As far as the outraged Republican remark, I have zero political affiliations and to quite frankly, I do not believe you need to have an affiliation to be offended by the assassination of a caricature of a sitting POTUS.
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Fair enough, but if you want that courtesy, extend it to others as well. Your original post singled out "the left" for their (hypothetical) behavior, and I responded in kind. You want the conversation to remain politically neutral? Cool, start it off that way.
 
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*Checks thread*

Still talking about Julius Caesar?

leaving-now-grandpa-simpsons.gif
 

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