America - The Official Thread

  • Thread starter ///M-Spec
  • 38,758 comments
  • 1,674,792 views
Political cartoons = Protected under free speech
Encouraging violence is not protected under free speech.

You have a President who has been extraordinarily critical of any media outlet that criticism of him. He then shares a video of himself attacking someone who serves as a representation of one of those media outlets. That video was created by someone who is known for their extreme views and shared with a like-minded audience.

With the partisanship gripping American politics, is it really so difficult to believe that someone might be encouraged to physically attack a journalist because of a video like this?

Blackmail = Not protected under free speech
Where has anyone involved been charged with a crime?
 
is it really so difficult to believe that someone might be encouraged to physically attack a journalist because of a video like this?

Nope, but if that were to happen the blame would be on the attacker and blaming the video would be like blaming video games and metal music for school shootings. And frankly, the video Trump posted is rather mild considering there's plenty of videos of people doing far worse things to likenesses of Trump. Should they be banned? I don't see you speaking out against them, in fact you recently defended a certain play depicting just that.

Where has anyone involved been charged with a crime?

Wow, moving the goalposts early on this one eh? Nobody has to be charged for a crime in order for blackmail to happen, I mean anyone can see the evidence.

CNN is not publishing "HanA**holeSolo's" name because he is a private citizen who has issued an extensive statement of apology, showed his remorse by saying he has taken down all his offending posts, and because he said he is not going to repeat this ugly behavior on social media again. In addition, he said his statement could serve as an example to others not to do the same. CNN reserves the right to publish his identity should any of that change.

That certainly sounds like blackmail to me.
 
The whole thing. He's protesting against CNN, but where is he protesting against the redditor? Surely both of them have an equal right to say what they said.

So your argument is that he's suppressing free speech by what he's chosen not to say? Protesting against CNN says nothing about his position on the redditor. It's a single video on a single protest, one that was outside CNN rather than outside HanSolo's house.

Come on, man. You can do better than that. Stop being vague and outline for me and everyone else exactly what he says that suppresses free speech. The words. There's a whole speech he has in there, a lot of which is political BS. Single out the attack on free speech.

After all, the original video was political opinion produced for a specific audience. It's the sort of thing that would appear as a political cartoon in the Sunday paper - a caricature of Trump in a boxing ring squaring off with a man in a suit wearing a CNN tag. In that sense, the redditor was acting as a member of the media. Why is he entitled to say what he said - when what he said amounts to the government attacking the press - when a news outlet is not?

Er, the protest was about CNN being bullies, as far as I could tell. That, and Milo's right versus left demagoguery. I'm not sure that you can find him saying that CNN aren't allowed to say what they did. I'm not even sure from memory that he said that they shouldn't, although it was obviously implied in that they disapprove of the behaviour. Most of it was him trying to get people to recognise how partisan and biased CNN and other media is, and how it's all a big conspiracy run by the democrats and blah blah blah tin foil hat.

But disapproving of what someone says, even vocally, is a long way from trying to silence them. Particularly when it's a national corporation who will probably barely notice that there was a protest beyond sending a couple extra security guards down.

The point is that Yiannopolis claims that free speech is of vital importance. His criticism falls within the purview if free speech, but he's criticising one and ignoring the other. How can he claim to be defending freedom of speech when he's clearly applying it differently?

He's not. Point out the exact words that he uses that are him calling for the suppression of freedom of speech. No vagaries. No "it's the whole video". Be specific. The rest of us aren't seeing what you see. Spell it out.

Pretend that you're demonstrating for your students exactly how to put together a well constructed argument, one that doesn't rely on other people having the same knowledge and perception as you.

As far as I can tell, HanSolo has exercised his free speech to make a silly gif. CNN has exercised their free speech to report on it, albeit in a manner that some find quite aggressive and bullying. Others, Milo included, have exercised their free speech to express their disapproval of how CNN has reported on the matter.

Is there somehow a problem with any of that? I'd say CNN bullied HanSolo into removing what he said, but my understanding is that it was removed prior to CNN getting in on the act.

Encouraging violence is not protected under free speech.

Parody and satire are, though.
 
I don't see you speaking out against them,
I can hardly speak out against what I haven't seen.

you recently defended a certain play depicting just that
I actually understand what Julius Caesar is about. So before you criticise me for defending it, how about you read it? You might be surprised as to what the play actually says. I've run into lots of people critical of the production, and none of them have read the play.

Wow, moving the goalposts early on this one eh?
Not at all. Blackmail is a crime. Given that this has received international attention, it stands to reason that further action would be taken. All I want to know is if someone has been charged over it.
 
I actually understand what Julius Caesar is about. So before you criticise me for defending it, how about you read it? You might be surprised as to what the play actually says. I've run into lots of people critical of the production, and none of them have read the play.

Umm, I defended the play as well if you don't remember. However you can't deny that it was meant to portray Trump and he was brutally "murdered" in the process. Something far worse than a clothesline and a few punches.

Frankly, if anyone views the Trump/CNN video or the one of a school teacher "shooting" trump in front of her class and thinks it's a good idea to actually do it they have bigger issues.

Not at all. Blackmail is a crime. Given that this has received international attention, it stands to reason that further action would be taken. All I want to know is if someone has been charged over it.

Not sure on the laws in Australia, but in the U.S. it's up to the victim to press charges. In this case it would involve releasing the very thing he's trying to keep from being public as court cases are public record.
 
Not sure on the laws in Australia, but in the U.S. it's up to the victim to press charges. In this case it would involve releasing the very thing he's trying to keep from being public as court cases are public record.
It would also involve a single, private citizen, taking on a multi-billion dollar media conglomerate, something unlikely to happen.
 
However you can't deny that it was meant to portray Trump and he was brutally "murdered" in the process.
True, but it wasn't too different from the source material. Caesar is killed in the play and it's brutal because we're meant to question it.

Not sure on the laws in Australia, but in the U.S. it's up to the victim to press charges.
It's mostly the same down here, but the Department of Public Prosecutions would have the power to prosecute independently if it's deemed to be in the public interest.
 
You guys do realize he can't do better than that, how many years have we had this discourse with him, Interludes and he still beats around the biggest bush in the world, while moving goal posts...

And here we are again. I'm still waiting for a precise point in said video where he (Milo) actually tries to stifle free speech as requested upon by @Imari and @Johnnypenso. Saying "the entire video" is a vague toss out, because he was thrown aback by actually being asked outright what indications are shown that Milo was anti-free speech in regards to CNN. In other words he doesn't exactly know what is an attack against free speech on behalf of Milo, it's just an attempt to say it. Also it's funny because he found a way to intermingle his dislike of Trump into this situation that has nothing to do with Trump...
 
Last edited:
Trump is the one who shared it, just sayin'.

Yes but the argument isn't who shared it as others have argued to him, it's about the creator and CNN's actions/attitude toward it. A threat from a powerful organization to a private citizen, do to disagreement. Which in turn is a louder cry (if CNN knows it or not) that others who do similar or like actions should think twice because a major organization of any kind may do the same, or actually go publicly forward and call them out on a national stage.
 
With the partisanship gripping American politics...

I took this out of context, but I personally believe that there is no partisanship gripping American politics. This sort of partisanship is being defined by those who watch and listen and read things from those who push this sort of partisanship to no end, creating it out of usually nothing. Don't get me wrong, though. There is definitely partisanship and there will always be partisanship, because that's the nature of American politics. But this sort of left vs. right major sociopolitical divide is only seen by those who receive information from the media outlets that spew it. But at the same time, we need to acknowledge when things are out of the ordinary, and not business as usual, like racism, although there's a ton of misinformation and subjectivity surrounding racism, and it's easy to play the blame game with it, but that doesn't mean it's not there.

But I hate this sort of smug arrogance that Democrats and Republicans have when they have differing opinions on a disputed point, that there's a foregone conclusion that they're right. Like Russia "hacking our election" and the Gender Wage Gap. But you have to do what you have to do to get people to listen to whatever you're spewing.
 
You guys do realize he can't do better than that, how many years have we had this discourse with him, Interludes and he still beats around the biggest bush in the world, while moving goal posts...

And here we are again. I'm still waiting for a precise point in said video where he (Milo) actually tries to stifle free speech as requested upon by @Imari and @Johnnypenso. Saying "the entire video" is a vague toss out, because he was thrown aback by actually being asked outright what indications are shown that Milo was anti-free speech in regards to CNN. In other words he doesn't exactly know what is an attack against free speech on behalf of Milo, it's just an attempt to say it. Also it's funny because he found a way to intermingle his dislike of Trump into this situation that has nothing to do with Trump...

Yeah, I know. But sometimes, on other topics, he can be insightful or at least have interesting or relevant input. On Milo, he's jumped straight to outright condemnation with no critical thinking performed.

Given his unfortunate role teaching my nation's children how to think, it would be nice if he'd be a little more diligent about examining his own opinions before impressing them on others. But yes, I'm not holding my breath for a real answer. The best one can look forward to is probably a new entry into the manual of Prisonermonkeys' Diversionary Tactics, but he'll probably just go back to an old standby on that too.

I took this out of context, but I personally believe that there is no partisanship gripping American politics.

You what?

There is definitely partisanship and there will always be partisanship, because that's the nature of American politics.

Oh, right. You just spent two paragraphs saying nothing. Well played.
 
There is definitely partisanship and there will always be partisanship, because that's the nature of American politics.
I'd say that it's the nature of politics in general. You're never going to get unilateral agreement on every issue. If you could, there would be no need for politics. But you guys seem to have turned partisan politics into an extreme sport.
 
Encouraging violence is not protected under free speech.

You have a President who has been extraordinarily critical of any media outlet that criticism of him. He then shares a video of himself attacking someone who serves as a representation of one of those media outlets. That video was created by someone who is known for their extreme views and shared with a like-minded audience.

With the partisanship gripping American politics, is it really so difficult to believe that someone might be encouraged to physically attack a journalist because of a video like this?
That wrestling gif is not a threat to anybody. To say that it is would be as ridiculous as saying that Julius Caesar is a threat.
the original video was produced for a specific audience as commentary on current events. It was a political cartoon, and if you change the medium it's the sort of thing that you could find in the Sunday newspaper on the opinion page.
That's more like it. 👍
 
Changing the subject: the aftermath of the G20 summit in Hamburg.

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-...ce-indicate-us-decline-as-world-power/8691538

Given the US was always going to be one out on climate change, a deft American President would have found an issue around which he could rally most of the leaders.

He had the perfect vehicle — North Korea's missile tests.

So, where was the G20 statement condemning North Korea? That would have put pressure on China and Russia? Other leaders expected it and they were prepared to back it but it never came.
So, what did we learn this week?

We learned Mr Trump has pressed fast forward on the decline of the US as a global leader. He managed to diminish his nation and to confuse and alienate his allies.

He will cede that power to China and Russia — two authoritarian states that will forge a very different set of rules for the 21st century.
 
Changing the subject...

There it is, ladies and gentlemen. Prisonermonkeys, still avoiding actually providing any justification or reasoning for what he says, even when someone else provides the video to do it with. I give you the still reigning world champion of hand waving away "facts".

It's possible that I've missed something about the context. I certainly haven't done it deliberately.

Don't hold your breath for an explanation.
 
Donald Trump Jr., Jared Kushner and Paul Manafort attended a meeting with a Russian lawyer connected with the Kremlin who allegedly promised damaging information on Hilary Clinton two weeks after Trump won the Republican nomination:

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-10/donald-trump-jr-meeting-with-kremlin-lawyer/8692848
"After pleasantries were exchanged, the woman stated that she had information that individuals connected to Russia were funding the Democratic National Committee and supporting Ms Clinton," Mr Trump Jr said in a statement."Her statements were vague, ambiguous and made no sense. No details or supporting information was provided or even offered....."That was the end of it and there was no further contact or follow-up of any kind. My father knew nothing of the meeting or these events."

The NY Post sums it up pretty well:
The real reason, it seems, was that Veselnitskaya wanted to lobby for the repeal of the Magnitsky Act, an Obama-era law that allows the US to deny visas to Russians thought guilty of human-rights violations. In retaliation, the Russians promptly ended the adoption of Russian orphans by Americans. [....] But in the end, the lawyer had nothing, gave nothing, got nothing in return, in a meeting that lasted 20 minutes. This is a scandal? Having established the smear of “collusion,” the Times must now link every story with the word “Russia” to it in the hopes that the rubes and suckers won’t stop believing that Trump somehow cheated his way into the White House.


Got one of my own:
Donald Trump was a Regular at the Infamous Studio 54 Where Cocaine and Drug Abuse Was Rampant
Trump was another club regular, but “he never touched drink or drugs. He liked looking at beautiful women, even though he was married to Ivana.
 
Last edited:
The NY Post sums it up pretty well:
1) I said that Veselnitskaya allegedly offered damaging information. I did it because I would ordinarily trust the people to read an article and come to their own conclusions, but thanks to you, I can't do that anymore because apparently people cannot think for themselves.
2) Trump Jr., Kushner and Manafort went to the meeting under the belief that Veselnitskaya had that information. Assuming that everything went the way that they said it did and she only wanted to discuss the Magnitsky Act and used the promise of that information to get them there, that doesn't change the fact that they went to a meeting with a source directly connected to a foreign power with the expectation that she could provide that information. What were they doing there if they weren't in the market for it?

How would you prefer that I present this source? "Trump says it is time to move forward with Russia" OR "Trump criticised by Republicans for proposing joing cyber warfare unit with Russia"? Because I really don't know what you would prefer. On the one hand, Trump is showing Big Huge Leadership - but on the other hand, Lindsey Graham called it "not the dumbest idea, but close" and Marco Rubio suggested that it's the same as establishing a joint Chemical Weapons Unit with Syria.
 
Last edited:
1) I said that Veselnitskaya allegedly offered damaging information. I did it because I would ordinarily trust the people to read an article and come to their own conclusions, but thanks to you, I can't do that anymore because apparently people cannot think for themselves.
Don't play victim because you purposely misquote your own articles to present your delight at Trump doing something wrong. :rolleyes:
 
Don't play victim because you purposely misquote your own articles to present your delight at Trump doing something wrong. :rolleyes:
I did not misquote the article. They went to the meeting and were allegedly offered compromising information on Clinton. Pardon me if I doubt the word of three people who have every reason to lie about what happened.
 
I did not misquote the article. They went to the meeting and were allegedly offered compromising information on Clinton. Pardon me if I doubt the word of three people who have every reason to lie about what happened.
You did not misquote that article. You misquoted these articles.
And speaking of crazy religious talk, this group wants the right to ban people with mental illness from mass:
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-...riminated-against-disabled-sex-change/8612052

The irony is not lost on me.
They wanted to ban a person from a public role, not mass. It was noted by @Chrunch Houston that you also posted this under the guise of them being Americans when you knew they weren't, but chose not to disclose that in your post....
Um, this is the American thread. What the Australians do is entirely on them.

But I see what you are trying to do.
Trump reportedly under investigation for obstruction of justice:
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-...n-for-obstruction-of-justice-us-media/8619686
"Donald Trump under investigation for possible obstruction of justice, Washington Post reports".
Pardon the double-post, but this is a completely different tangent of discussion - the State Department has revealed that Russia interfered in the election in twenty-one states:
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-...targeted-21-us-states-during-election/8640886
Dennisch
From the article :

She reiterated that there was no evidence that any actual votes were manipulated.
 
1) I said that Veselnitskaya allegedly offered damaging information. I did it because I would ordinarily trust the people to read an article and come to their own conclusions, but thanks to you, I can't do that anymore because apparently people cannot think for themselves.
2) Trump Jr., Kushner and Manafort went to the meeting under the belief that Veselnitskaya had that information. Assuming that everything went the way that they said it did and she only wanted to discuss the Magnitsky Act and used the promise of that information to get them there, that doesn't change the fact that they went to a meeting with a source directly connected to a foreign power with the expectation that she could provide that information. What were they doing there if they weren't in the market for it?

How would you prefer that I present this source? "Trump says it is time to move forward with Russia" OR "Trump criticised by Republicans for proposing joing cyber warfare unit with Russia"? Because I really don't know what you would prefer. On the one hand, Trump is showing Big Huge Leadership - but on the other hand, Lindsey Graham called it "not the dumbest idea, but close" and Marco Rubio suggested that it's the same as establishing a joint Chemical Weapons Unit with Syria.
1. You may have noticed that I don't just post a link. I always include a brief synopsis, usually copy/pasted from the article. Do you know why? It has nothing to do with not trusting anyone to read the link and everything to do with wanting to communicate clearly and respecting people's time. If the snippet interests them, they'll read on. If not, no time wasted trying to guess what point i'm trying to make by spamming links.

2. People tied to a political candidate meet with someone who might have dirt on his opponent. I don't see a story here. 3. If you can't figure out how to present a story that simple I can't help you.

EDIT:
Comey’s private memos on Trump conversations contained classified material
More than half of the memos former FBI chief James Comey wrote as personal recollections of his conversations with President Trump about the Russia investigation have been determined to contain classified information, according to interviews with officials familiar with the documents. This revelation raises the possibility that Comey broke his own agency’s rules and ignored the same security protocol that he publicly criticized Hillary Clinton for in the waning days of the 2016 presidential election.

Four of the memos had markings making clear they contained information classified at the “secret” or “confidential” level, according to officials directly familiar with the matter. A spokesman for the FBI on Sunday declined to comment. FBI policy forbids any agent from releasing classified information or any information from ongoing investigations or sensitive operations without prior written permission, and mandates that all records created during official duties are considered to be government property.
 
Last edited:
Nope, I don't. It's not illegal to receive emails, the email that supposedly contains reference to Russia working to elect Trump isn't available for scrutiny, and the alleged writer of the email, "denied any knowledge of involvement by the Russian government in the matter, saying that never dawned on him. “Never, never ever,” he said. If an email is produced that says someone thinks that the Russians are helping elect Trump, then they are guilty of reading an email. At this point it's much ado about nothing. Produce the email and produce some evidence that the allegations in the email are actually true and that Kushner, Trump Jr. or Manafort knew it was true and didn't report it and then you've got something.
 
Back