America - The Official Thread

[PocketZeven]

I'm not sure why you're directing that at me? You think that's somehow a counter to saying that the President has people that handle the legal stuff? Are those legal people now out of a job or does the investigation continue?

Are you trolling on purpose?

 

[Northstar]

constant delegitamizing of the free press...

I'm not so sure you can pin that on Trump. The press has been attacking their own credibility for quite some time and will continue to do so long after Trump's term is over.

 

[TexRex]

My apologies, but I am not familiair with proper forum ettiquette. Because the posts are sensitive I actually did add "edit" (as a courtesy), because I noticed I posted it too soon, without factchecking. English also is not my first language. Also it is normal for people with perhaps an opposite belief to be offended and be on the defensive.

I don't know that it's proper etiquette, it's just something that I consider a courtesy. I saw your post in its original form, I saw the response to your post in its original form and then I saw your edit to include a response to the response that, if I hadn't seen the post in its original form and it hadn't occurred to me to check times of posts and edits (even then, the indication of an edit is only of time and not content), I might wonder if the respondent intentionally omitted a preemptive response to a question they were about to ask.

I can appreciate that you may be in somewhat unfamiliar territory with regards to spoken language, and I do appreciate you making an effort to make comments that can be understood (even if others are critical of them).

I'm not sure why you're directing that at me? You think that's somehow a counter to saying that the President has people that handle the legal stuff? Are those legal people now out of a job or does the investigation continue?

Why am I directing it at you? It appears to me that you're taking comments hyperliterally and questioning the assertions as though they are hyperliteral--of course it might not occur to me that this is what you're doing if not for your having demonstrated this sort of tactic elsewhere.

I don't believe--and I suppose I'm "whiteknighting" (your word) here--that assertions were intended to be taken hyperliterally, that Donald J. Trump himself is expected topound the pavement, to draft legal documents and pore over others, to serve and execute warrants, to hand down indictments and to personally, singularly try the indicted.

That said, he is responsible, indirectly but ultimately, for holding responsible* those who act surreptitiously against the nation that he represents. He could even be more responsible by demonstrating further nepotism of which he's clearly so inclined, and tasking baby brother Bobby to lead the investigation and big brother Fred Jr. to head the CIA.

*Edited to add "responsible".

 

[Dotini]

Democrats, progressives and liberals are beginning to face up to an identity crisis confronting the future of their politics in the US.

Centrist Dems begin arguing against far-left agenda as 2020 play
BY ALEX ROARTY

July 20, 2018 03:11 PM

Updated 10 hours 3 minutes ago

COLUMBUS, OHIO
Leading moderate Democrats forcefully argued this week that the party can embrace a robust agenda of change while still praising capitalism and downplaying income inequality.

In other words, everything the empowered liberal base has spent a year and a half mobilizing against.

Democrats gathered here in Ohio’s capital city on Thursday and Friday in what was an opening salvo of the 2020 Democratic presidential primary, part of a conference organized by the center-left think tank Third Way.

The longtime Washington-based group was unveiling the findings of a year-long assessment launched after the 2016 election, hoping to convince potential presidential contenders that they don’t have to adopt the hard-left agenda and style of a Bernie Sanders progressive.
Included in its report were a dozen big-picture policy recommendations — such as adopting a robust apprenticeship program and expanded unemployment insurance to help workers find new jobs — and encouragement to bypass talk of income inequality for an emphasis on creating opportunity.

Third Way officials even attempted to remove the “moderate” moniker from the event, encouraging those in attendance to call themselves “opportunity Democrats.” (The event itself was labeled “Opportunity 2020.”)

“Once again, the time has come to mend, but not end, capitalism for a new era,” said Jonathan Cowan, Third Way’s president, in a sweeping speech outlining his group’s study.

The group’s recommendations will be met with skepticism — if not outright derision — by many Democrats and liberals, who argue the party has been ill-served by a more modest, incrementalist approach. (Third Way officials counter that although their platform is different than a Sanders-style agenda, ideas like a proposed employer-funded pension system would be radical changes in their own right.)

And indeed, even many of those on hand in Columbus — a few hundred congressmen, Democratic officials, and local politicians — needed convincing that the rest of their party was interested in this approach.

“There is no question there is a lot of volume and emotion and energy around the more activist wing of our party,” said Jim Himes, a Democratic congressman from Connecticut and chairman of the New Democrats, a coalition of business-oriented party members on Capitol Hill.

The party’s more moderate voices, he told reporters, were at risk of being “drowned out” if they didn’t start speaking out more.

Few Democrats would disagree with Himes’s assessment: Just last month, the victory of avowed democratic socialist Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez shocked longtime Democratic Rep. Joe Crowley in New York shocked the party and ushered in a wave of predictions that future Democratic candidates would mimic Ocasio-Cortez’s platform and style. On a policy front, once-fringe issues — such as the adoption of single-payer health care and a federal jobs guarantee for every citizen — have moved into the party’s mainstream.

Poll data from 2016 would suggest Third Way’s approach has some merit: A Gallup poll from October 2016 found that voters thought Trump was actually less less conservative than prior GOP nominees. Clinton, meanwhile, was seen as as liberal as former President Barack Obama.

Of course, liberals argue that energizing the party’s base is of paramount importance, especially in the age of Donald Trump.

The more centrist approach advocated at the conference, those in attendance acknowledged, will face skepticism for many reasons. A party left devastated after the last presidential election is dead-set on looking for big, bold ideas, and Third Way officials say it’s hard to compete on that front with liberals advocating a total overhaul of the health care system.

Any effort to rebrand the party reminds Democrats of the approach advocated by former President Bill Clinton in the early 1990s, when he pulled the party in a more moderate direction on social and economic issues. Third Way rejects the idea that it’s trying to do the same thing now, arguing that they are instead advocating for an entirely new approach.

“Let’s be clear,” Cowan said. “80s supply-sidism, 90s centrism and 60s socialism will not cut it for the era we’re in. We need something new and different.”

Many of those in attendance were careful not to directly criticize Ocasio-Cortez, saying they welcomed the new energy she was bringing into the party. But they also made clear that they thought her style of politics would be a difficult sell outside of her New York City congressional district, where the party must try to win over more conservative voters.

Lanae Erickson Hatalsky, vice president for social policy and politics at Third Way, said a poll conducted by the group found voters — including many Democrats — responded more positively to a message that emphasized creating economic opportunity over income inequality. The opportunity message, she said, “trounced the other Democratic approaches on the table with the voters we need to win in a general election.”

Other Democrats in attendance were harsher in their assessments of the party’s liberal wing.

“A small but vocal subgroup that is unhinged from evidence will be wrong in the long run, regardless of how loud they are,” said Iowa state Sen. Jeff Danielson, in an interview.

Danielson hails from a conservative-leaning district in northeast Iowa and says he’s managed to win re-election there by adopting an approach similar to the one advocated by Third Way. Many of his constituents would see Ocasio-Cortez’s agenda and think it amounted to nothing more than a “grievance list,” he said.

But he’s not sure other members of his party will listen to his advice.

“We don’t know what we want,” he said. “We haven’t found our sea legs as a party.”

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/article215241865.html

 

[TexRex]

Trump administration releases classified warrants; Trump loses cheese on Twitter.

https://www.npr.org/2018/07/22/6312...ified-warrants-for-fbi-wiretap-of-carter-page



My personal favorite part of the article:

The documents show that former FBI Director James Comey and former deputy director of the FBI Andrew McCabe certified the requests to wiretap Page over several 90-day periods. It shows that four Federal District Court judges signed the wiretapping applications: Rosemary M. Collyer, Michael W. Mosman, Anne C. Conway, and Raymond J. Dearie. All four judges were nominated by Republican presidents.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Trump administration releases classified warrants; Trump loses cheese on Twitter.

https://www.npr.org/2018/07/22/6312...ified-warrants-for-fbi-wiretap-of-carter-page



My personal favorite part of the article:

So what you're saying is, even if the Republicans appoint more SCOTUS's Americans don't need to worry because this demonstrates that Republican nominated judges follow the law even if it goes against "their side"? Good to know.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/jul/22/majority-of-young-people-not-planning-on-voting-in/
Bad news for Democrats. Young voters aren't going to turn up in big numbers for the mid-terms but the old folks will. Also, the #walkaway movement seems to be working.

 

[TexRex]

So what you're saying is, even if the Republicans appoint more SCOTUS's Americans don't need to worry because this demonstrates that Republican nominated judges follow the law even if it goes against "their side"? Good to know.

Or, you know, the "Witch Hunt Rigged" isn't nearly as witchy, hunty or riggedy as his narrative suggests. Makes one wonder why he's projecting a false narrative so fervently--feeling the pressure, methinks.

 

[McLaren]

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/jul/22/majority-of-young-people-not-planning-on-voting-in/
Bad news for Democrats. Young voters aren't going to turn up in big numbers for the mid-terms but the old folks will. Also, the #walkaway movement seems to be working.

Young adults such as gun-control activist David Hogg, a Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School student, have been leading the effort to get the younger generation to vote. Mr. Hogg says that the only way that gun control can pass is if all lawmakers who are affiliated with the National Rifle Association are voted out.

Hate the kid, but can't fault him for this.

They've gotta vote if they want a chance at change. They stay home, they just let others show they're more serious about being represented.

 

[Biggles]

Tony Blair lied to take our country to war and kill hundreds of thousands of people - including our own troops.

As for Berlusconi... if you think Stormy and piss fetishism is bad, try having sex with a child and several court cases around bribery, corruption, surveillance...

Lying to take a country to war is a time honoured tradition among politicians of all stripes .... a necessity you might almost say. What is remarkable about Trump is his dedication to lying about almost everything, no matter how inconsequential or irrelevant.

Yes, Berlusconi is the most obvious precursor to Trump when it comes to corruption, venality & vanity.

 

[baldgye]

Yes, Berlusconi is the most obvious precursor to Trump when it comes to corruption, venality & vanity.

Although not hair...

 

[TenEightyOne]

Iran have been a bit quiet, haven't they? Time to poke them with a stick and see if they're really as big a man as Trump.

 

[baldgye]

Iran have been a bit quiet, haven't they? Time to poke them with a stick and see if they're really as big a man as Trump.

I'll translate this tweet, as you liberals are not smart enough to see his genius.... what it actually reads is as following;

Knight to Bishop 4.

 

[DK]

Well, what do you know?

 

[Tornado]

I guess he normalized it.

No he didn't. Regardless of the points being raised about political corruption being overlooked so long as it's not the other guy being naughty (see: 2016 Presidential Election), his history as a public figure in North America goes back way farther then when he was told he couldn't buy the Buffalo Bills and decided to run for president instead. It goes back way further then when he became the figurehead of the "Obama is a Kenyan Muslim sleeper cell agent" movement. Donald Trump is a very specific person with a very specific public persona, and everyone who voted for him knew about it and no one who had the ability to vote for him should be surprised that he didn't turn out to secretly be Jimmy Carter all along. Trump is a little different because he never really bothers to pretend looking truthful like a more typical politician would go through the motions of doing; but again, nothing else should be expected by anyone of Donald Trump to do.

That was a very clear send up of that public persona if given actual power to the extent that it's surprising he didn't sue them (as he tended to threaten) over it. That was in 1989. Nothing Donald Trump has done in his personal life that has been dragged into the public eye since winning the election is anything but what everyone in the US should have expected the day he took office; which is why it doesn't raise anyone's ire very much no matter how outraged people going on CNN want to act.


It would have been more surprising to a typical person in the US if Donald Trump hadn't been accused of paying off hookers he cheated on his mail order wife with using federal campaign funds; not because he's a politician, but because he's Donald Trump. That doesn't normalize anything for any other politicians, because other politicians likely won't have thirty years of public baggage and then win the presidency anyway.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Iran have been a bit quiet, haven't they? Time to poke them with a stick and see if they're really as big a man as Trump.

I think you left out the part where Iran threatened the United States with the "mother of all wars". Iranian currency recently hit a record low. Traders went on strike in June after the currency was devalued. Political and social unrest will soon be imminent if it isn't underway already. Rouhani is grasping at straws to retain power by poking the sleeping bear with a stick in the hopes of distracting the populace.

 

[baldgye]

Looks like Americans got around to that inflatable Kahn... oh wait

 

[PocketZeven]

Well, what do you know?

Double standards much? This reminds of the claim that Obama golf's way too much and when he is President he wouldnt have time, because he would be working so much. (or did I get would/wouldnt mixed up?) He seems to do almost everything that he disliked about Obama. But when he does it its totally different somehow?

 

[Johnnypenso]

Looks like Americans got around to that inflatable Kahn... oh wait

Old news. The inflatable chicken was at the White House a year ago.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I think you left out the part where Iran threatened the United States with the "mother of all wars".

Nicely cherry-picked quote... because I think you left out the part (in the same paragraph, no less) where Iran said "peace with Iran is the mother of all peace"

 

[Liquid]

Taking it to Twitter to wave your penis in the President of Iran's face is a bit redundant considering Twitter has been banned in Iran since 2009.

 

[baldgye]

Taking it to Twitter to wave your penis in the President of Iran's face is a bit redundant considering Twitter has been banned in Iran since 2009.

Be realistic though, how else is a President supposed to communicate foreign policy?

/sarcasm

 

[Johnnypenso]

Nicely cherry-picked quote... because I think you left out the part (in the same paragraph, no less) where Iran said "peace with Iran is the mother of all peace"

. You posted Trumps response quote without a single piece of background and I'm cherry picking? Pull the other one...

 

[baldgye]

. You posted Trumps response quote without a single piece of background and I'm cherry picking? Pull the other one...

BOOM GOTTEM!! ..ZING!

HAHA! Take that @TenEightyOne for political discourse! You ain't got nuffin'

 

[Johnnypenso]

BOOM GOTTEM!! ..ZING!

HAHA! Take that @TenEightyOne for political discourse! You ain't got nuffin'

 

[PocketZeven]

I'm not sure why you're directing that at me? You think that's somehow a counter to saying that the President has people that handle the legal stuff? Are those legal people now out of a job or does the investigation continue? AFAIK absolutely nothing has changed on that front. If it has please share it with us.


You do yourself a disservice and handicap your own participation here if you think that people responding to you are either offended or on the defensive. It's a terrible perspective for approaching a discussion.

Engaging in discussion and countering your points is not being "provoked". See above. It's literally the reason we are here, to engage each other. If you post opinions expect them to be challenged.

Interesting you site Fox News as propoganda when the media over here is generally seen as leaning left, at least in my opinion. Fox nearly stands almost alone among the mainstream media in that regard. There is no such thing as an independent press.

Please give us some historical examples that are repeating themselves under the current President and explain how the democratic institutions in place that are designed to prevent that very thing happening are failing.

I am here tos dicus and not offend. Certain people seem to react as if personally attacked. That is not my intention. There shouldnt be that much emotion in a healthy conversation/debate. In my opinion the media in the US is mainly centrist. An independant press will always look for the truth. When I compare cnn, ny times, cbs etc. to Fox news, Fox tends to spread "fake" news (news that can be factchecked at least) a lot more often.

Here are some examples of historic examples of the rise to a totalitarism (right/left) regime :

• using inter-ethnic conflicts as policy
  
• propose mass deportation of these people
• creating "camps"
  
• endorses police brutality
• encite violence
  
• makes the free press an enemy of the people
• Use censorship to silence the free press
  
• creates his own media
• rise to power with a populistic agenda
• demands absolute loyalty to his authority
  
• Militarization
• attack established governement
• endorsement of a large party
• ally with totalitaristic regimes
  
• centralization of power
• support to extreme right/left parties

Not saying they check all the above boxes but it can be seen in the rise of Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Mussolini, Xi, Erdogan, Hussein, Kim, Putin etc.

I'm not so sure you can pin that on Trump. The press has been attacking their own credibility for quite some time and will continue to do so long after Trump's term is over.

Trump constantly calling all, but Fox, Fake news. And even calling them the enemy of the people is certainly accelerating it.

edit: added response to northstar

 

[TexRex]

 

[Northstar]

Trump constantly calling all, but Fox, Fake news. And even calling them the enemy of the people is certainly accelerating it.

Only because news outlets are letting it hasten their downfall. News outlets, mainly the 24-hour channels have been under fire for some time for sensationalizing things just to get ratings. Trump's idiotic statements should have been a wake up call and given them all the incentive needed to prove he really is just that stupid. Instead they've seemingly set their sights on proving him right and showing everyone that politicians aren't the only untrustworthy people in our daily lives.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I am here tos dicus and not offend. Certain people seem to react as if personally attacked. That is not my intention. There shouldnt be that much emotion in a healthy conversation/debate. In my opinion the media in the US is mainly centrist. An independant press will always look for the truth. When I compare cnn, ny times, cbs etc. to Fox news, Fox tends to spread "fake" news (news that can be factchecked at least) a lot more often.

Again, you're making a mistake if you assume other people are reacting as if offended or being attacked. You're imputing emotions that probably aren't there and it's completely unnecessary. Also again, there is no independent press. They all have their paymasters and they all serve to promote an agenda. Most of them are on the left and Fox pretty much stands alone on the right of the mainstream media outlets.

Here are some examples of historic examples of the rise to a totalitarism (right/left) regime :

• using inter-ethnic conflicts as policy
  
• propose mass deportation of these people
• creating "camps"
  
• endorses police brutality
• encite violence
  
• makes the free press an enemy of the people
• Use censorship to silence the free press
  
• creates his own media
• rise to power with a populistic agenda
• demands absolute loyalty to his authority
  
• Militarization
• attack established governement
• endorsement of a large party
• ally with totalitaristic regimes
  
• centralization of power
• support to extreme right/left parties

Not saying they check all the above boxes but it can be seen in the rise of Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Mussolini, Xi, Erdogan, Hussein, Kim, Putin etc.

Those are generic examples. I was looking for specifics and also how Trump is going to supercede all the safeguards built into the Constitution to become a totalitarian dictator.

 

[Biggles]

Only because news outlets are letting it hasten their downfall. News outlets, mainly the 24-hour channels have been under fire for some time for sensationalizing things just to get ratings. Trump's idiotic statements should have been a wake up call and given them all the incentive needed to prove he really is just that stupid. Instead they've seemingly set their sights on proving him right and showing everyone that politicians aren't the only untrustworthy people in our daily lives.

What?

I think Trump's idiotic statements speak for themselves ... just reporting them has demonstrated he really is just that stupid. The fact that media outlets are not always perfectly trustworthy doesn't make any difference to that basic reality.

Those are generic examples. I was looking for specifics and also how Trump is going to supercede all the safeguards built into the Constitution to become a totalitarian dictator.

They are generic examples ... many of which are entirely applicable to Trump's behaviour. How is Trump going to supersede the safeguards built into the Constitution? Well, hopefully he's not, but it sure is fascinating watching him give it the old college try.

 

[Northstar]

just reporting

They haven't exactly been "just reporting" them though have they? Nope. They've been blowing every idiotic tweet up into a huge deal while who knows what is going on in the background. That's not to say they shouldn't report on the tweets, but there comes a time where you need to stop feeding the troll.

I wouldn't be surprised if the tweets are just a diversionary tactic.

The fact that media outlets are not always perfectly trustworthy doesn't make any difference to that basic reality.

Oh but it does, and again, this goes far beyond Trump. News outlets have been putting ratings above facts for so long the National Enquirer or The Onion doesn't seem all that outrageous anymore.

You can blame Trump, Obama, Republicans or Democrats it really doesn't matter. The media over the last 15-20 years has shown time and time again that they shouldn't be trusted anymore than the politicians they cover.