America - The Official Thread

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They are generic examples ... many of which are entirely applicable to Trump's behaviour. How is Trump going to supersede the safeguards built into the Constitution? Well, hopefully he's not, but it sure is fascinating watching him give it the old college try.
Many on that list would apply to several Presidents. Obama was the largest deporter of illegals in history, constantly harped about Fox News, rose to power with a populist wave of support, attacked Bush constantly, supported what are considered in American politics as extreme left wing/socialist ideas etc. But I've yet to see any risk that the Constitution is in any danger of being usurped by Trump or anyone else.
 
Many on that list would apply to several Presidents. Obama was the largest deporter of illegals in history, constantly harped about Fox News, rose to power with a populist wave of support, attacked Bush constantly, supported what are considered in American politics as extreme left wing/socialist ideas etc. But I've yet to see any risk that the Constitution is in any danger of being usurped by Trump or anyone else.

What a load of relativist rubbish. I don't remember Obama ever calling Fox News "the enemy of the American people". I don't remember him ever calling Mexicans "rapists". I don't remember him speaking approvingly of foreign dictators. "Extreme left/wing socialist ideas"? We've been hearing that for decades from the Right about every non right-wing politician.

Never mind the "extreme/left wing socialists", I've been around a while & no Republican president has ever come close to the kind of statements coming out of Trump on a daily basis.
 
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What a load of relativist rubbish. I don't remember Obama ever calling Fox News "the enemy of the American people". I don't remember him ever calling Mexicans "rapists". I don't remember him speaking approvingly of foreign dictators. "Extreme left/wing socialist ideas"? We've been hearing that for decades from the Right about every non right-wing politician.

Never mind the "extreme/left wing socialists", I've been around a while & no Republican president has ever come close to the kind of statements coming out of Trump on a daily basis.
I didn't say they were the same, nor did I use any of the examples you just used, I was just pointing out examples in recent history where a President would fit into some of the listed characteristics of a dictator. I know it's upsetting.

Obama opened the door to constantly criticizing his critical press. He did it over and over and over. Not that he was the first. FDR, Spiro Agnew and many other senior government officials all had battles with the press. Trump has taken it several steps further of course but it's not like Obama is exactly innocent in baiting the press and trying to shape the narrative and demonizing his enemies in the media.
 

OMINOUS MUSIC THAT ALL BUT COMPLETELY DROWNS OUT THE DIALOGUE.

:lol:

I suppose he may have been critical of them, but I too tend to be critical of people who lodge personal attacks against members of my family.

Remember this?



That "eating a live raccoon" bit is still troubling. And what right do they have to tell two teenage girls that they have absolutely no influence over how to dress?


Obama opened the door to constantly criticizing his critical press. He did it over and over and over. Not that he was the first.
:odd:

You get that the "opened the door to..." idiom is used to suggest that an individual or group either started or paved the way for something, right?
 
They are generic examples ... many of which are entirely applicable to Trump's behaviour. How is Trump going to supersede the safeguards built into the Constitution? Well, hopefully he's not, but it sure is fascinating watching him give it the old college try.

As far as America goes, a lot of those are things that have been common in the country since long before Trump.
 
You get that the "opened the door to..." idiom is used to suggest that an individual or group either started or paved the way for something, right?
I chose the words, "constantly criticizing the press" instead of "criticizing the press" purposely. While other Presidents or those that worked close to them have been critical of the press in the past, it was either a one time thing or sporadic in nature. Obama took it to another level with his many, many, many mentions of Fox News in press conferences and interviews. The internet is a thing now and these references to his enemies in the press are readily available with a button push for all the world to see. We don't need to wait for Time to write an article about it to be reminded like we did 40 years ago. IMO he often came across as smug, condescending and arrogant to a lot of Americans while doing so with his little smirk and chuckle and it definitely played a part in Hillary's stunning and unpredictable but crushing defeat.

So to me it looks like Obama set the stage for a President to openly criticize his enemies in the press core unabated. Thing is, Obama had all the press on his side but one and now the roles are reversed and Trump has all but one against him, in the MSM at least. I'm not a fan of Trump's actions in this regard any more than I was a fan of Obama's constantly criticizing Fox, I'd rather think the Presidents were above that sort of petty nonsense. But, like Clinton helped opened the door for a President to be a serial philanderer with no political consequences, Obama opened the door to be openly critical of the press you don't like on a regular basis.
 
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But, like Clinton helped opened the door for a President to be a serial philanderer with no political consequences, Obama opened the door to be openly critical of the press you don't like on a regular basis.

The first was Jefferson.

You're right on Obama, he said

Obama
“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle.

Oh, no, hang on... that was Jefferson too :D
 
I'm not sure that Obama really held the press in any more contempt than the Bush Administration did. It's just that Obama expressed visible frustration and venting about it (something Trump has turned up to 11). The Bush White House used the press as a tool to push whatever narrative it wanted when needed and (increasingly as the second term trudged along) told reporters to get bent when they didn't want to toe the company line; since they had deduced that even after the high of 9/11 wore off that they didn't really need cooperation from the press to do whatever they wanted to do anyway.
 
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Only if we're understanding "exactly" completely differently... you traced such habits back as far as Obama and Clinton, certainly no further in the post I replied to.
Obama opened the door to constantly criticizing his critical press. He did it over and over and over. Not that he was the first. FDR, Spiro Agnew and many other senior government officials all had battles with the press.
Let's see. FDR and Spiro Agnew. That'd be 30's, 40's, 60's and 70's.
We don't need to wait for Time to write an article about it to be reminded like we did 40 years ago.
Also the 70's.
While other Presidents or those that worked close to them have been critical of the press in the past, it was either a one time thing or sporadic in nature.
No specific time references so could go back 240 years.
 
From antiwar.com:

Moon-Strzok No More, Lisa Page Spills the Beans
by Ray McGovern Posted on July 24, 2018


Former FBI attorney Lisa Page has reportedly told a joint committee of the House of Representatives that when FBI counterintelligence official Peter Strzok texted her on May 19, 2017 saying there was “no big there there,” he meant there was no evidence of collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia.

It was clearly a bad-luck day for Strzok, when on Friday the 13th this month Page gave her explanation of the text to the House Judiciary and Oversight/Government Reform Committees and in effect threw her lover, Strzok, under the bus.

Strzok’s apparent admission to Page about there being “no big there there” was reported on Friday by John Solomon in the Opinion section of The Hill based on multiple sources who he said were present during Page’s closed door interview.

Strzok’s text did not come out of the blue. For the previous ten months he and his FBI subordinates had been trying every-which-way to ferret out some “there” – preferably a big “there” – but had failed miserably. If Solomon’s sources are accurate, it is appearing more and more likely that there was nothing left for them to do but to make it up out of whole cloth, with the baton then passed to special counsel Robert Mueller.

The “no there there” text came just two days after former FBI Director James Comey succeeded in getting his friend Mueller appointed to investigate the alleged collusion that Strzok was all but certain wasn’t there.

Robert Parry, the late founder and editor of Consortium News whom Solomon described to me last year as his model for journalistic courage and professionalism, was already able to discern as early as March 2017 the outlines of what is now Deep State-gate, and, typically, was the first to dare report on its implications.

Parry’s article, written two and a half months before Strzok texted the self-incriminating comment to Page on there being “no big there there,” is a case study in professional journalism. His very first sentence entirely anticipated Strzok’s text: “The hysteria over ‘Russia-gate’ continues to grow … but at its core there may be no there there.”(Emphasis added.)

As for “witch-hunts,” Bob and others at Consortiumnews.com, who didn’t succumb to the virulent HWHW (Hillary Would Have Won) virus, and refused to slurp the Kool-Aid offered at the deep Deep State trough, have come close to being burned at the stake — virtually. Typically, Bob stuck to his guns: he ran an organ (now vestigial in most Establishment publications) that sifted through and digested actual evidence and expelled drivel out the other end.

Those of us following the example set by Bob Parry are still taking a lot of incoming fire – including from folks on formerly serious – even progressive – websites. Nor do we expect a cease-fire now, even with Page’s statement (about which, ten days after her interview, the Establishment media keep a timorous silence). Far too much is at stake.

As Mark Twain put it, “It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.” And, as we have seen over the past couple of years, that goes in spades for “Russia-gate.” For many of us who have looked into it objectively and written about it dispassionately, we are aware, that on this issue, we are looked upon as being in sync with President Donald Trump.

Blind hatred for the man seems to thwart any acknowledgment that he could ever be right about something – anything. This brings considerable awkwardness. Chalk it up to the price of pursuing the truth, no matter what bedfellows you end up with.

Courage at The Hill

Solomon’s article merits a careful read, in toto. Here are the most germane paragraphs:

“It turns out that what Strzok and Lisa Page were really doing that day [May 19, 2017] was debating whether they should stay with the FBI and try to rise through the ranks to the level of an assistant director (AD) or join Mueller’s special counsel team. [Page has since left the FBI.]

“‘Who gives a ****, one more AD [Assistant Director] like [redacted] or whoever?’” Strzok wrote, weighing the merits of promotion, before apparently suggesting what would be a more attractive role: ‘An investigation leading to impeachment?’ …

“A few minutes later Strzok texted his own handicap of the Russia evidence: ‘You and I both know the odds are nothing. If I thought it was likely, I’d be there no question. I hesitate in part because of my gut sense and concern there’s no big there there.’

“So the FBI agents who helped drive the Russia collusion narrative – as well as Rosenstein’s decision to appoint Mueller – apparently knew all along that the evidence was going to lead to ‘nothing’ and, yet, they proceeded because they thought there was still a possibility of impeachment.”

Solomon adds: “How concerned you are by this conduct is almost certainly affected by your love or hatred for Trump. But put yourself for a second in the hot seat of an investigation by the same FBI cast of characters: You are under investigation for a crime the agents don’t think occurred, but the investigation still advances because the desired outcome is to get you fired from your job. Is that an FBI you can live with?”

The Timing

As noted, Strzok’s text was written two days after Mueller was appointed on May 17, 2017. The day before, on May 16, The New York Times published a story that Comey leaked to it through an intermediary that was expressly designed (as Comey admitted in Congressional testimony three weeks later) to lead to the appointment of a special prosecutor to investigate collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia. Hmmmmm.

Had Strzok forgotten to tell his boss that after ten months of his best investigative efforts — legal and other – he could find no “there there”?

Comey’s leak, by the way, was about alleged pressure from Trump on Comey to go easy on Gen. Michael Flynn for lying at an impromptu interrogation led by – you guessed it – the ubiquitous, indispensable Peter Strzok.

In any event, the operation worked like a charm – at least at first. And – absent revelation of the Strzok-Page texts – it might well have continued to succeed. After Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein named Mueller, one of Comey’s best buddies, to be special counsel, Mueller, in turn, picked Strzok to lead the Russia-gate team, until the summer, when the Department of Justice Inspector General was given the Strzok-Page texts and refused to sit on them.

A Timeline

Here’s a timeline, which might be helpful:

2017

May 16: Comey leak to NY Times to get a special counsel appointed

May 17: Special counsel appointed — namely, Robert Mueller.

May 19: Strzok confides to girlfriend Page, “No big there there.”

July: Mueller appoints Strzok lead FBI Agent on collusion investigation.

August: Mueller removes Strzok after learning of his anti-Trump texts to Page.

Dec. 12: DOJ IG releases some, but by no means all, relevant Strzok-Page texts to Congress and the media, which first reports on Strzok’s removal in August.

2018

June 14: DOJ IG Report Published.

June 15; Strzok escorted out of FBI Headquarters.

June 21: Attorney General Jeff Sessions announces Strzok has lost his security clearances.

July 12: Strzok testifies to House committees. Solomon reports he refused to answer question about the “there there” text.

July 13: Lisa Page interviewed by same committees. Answers the question.

Earlier: Bob Parry in Action

On December 12, 2017, as soon as first news broke of the Strzok-Page texts, Bob Parry and I compared notes by phone. We agreed that this was quite big and that, clearly, Russia-gate had begun to morph into something like FBI-gate. It was rare for Bob to call me before he wrote; in retrospect, it seemed to have been merely a sanity check.

The piece Bob posted early the following morning was typical Bob. Many of those who click on the link will be surprised that, last December, he already had pieced together most of the story. Sadly, it turned out to be Bob’s last substantive piece before he fell seriously ill. Earlier last year he had successfully shot down other Russia-gate-related canards on which he found Establishment media sorely lacking – “Facebook-gate,” for example.

Remarkably, it has taken another half-year for Congress and the media to address – haltingly – the significance of Deep State-gate – however easy it has become to dissect the plot, and identify the main plotters. With Bob having prepared the way with his Dec.13 article, I followed up a few weeks later with “The FBI Hand Behind Russia-gate,” in the process winning no friends among those still suffering from the highly resistant HWHW virus.

VIPS

Parry also deserves credit for his recognition and appreciation of the unique expertise and analytical integrity among Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPs) and giving us a secure, well respected home at Consortium News.

It is almost exactly a year since Bob took a whole lot of flak for publishingwhat quickly became VIPs’ most controversial, and at the same time perhaps most important, Memorandum For the President; namely, “Intelligence Veterans Challenge ‘Russia Hack’ Evidence.”

Critics have landed no serious blows on the key judgments of that Memorandum, which rely largely on the type of forensic evidence that Comey failed to ensure was done by his FBI because the Bureau never seized the DNC server. Still more forensic evidence has become available over recent months soon to be revealed on Consortium News, confirming our conclusions.

Ray McGovern works with Tell the Word, a publishing arm of the ecumenical Church of the Saviour in inner-city Washington. His 27-year career as a CIA analyst includes serving as Chief of the Soviet Foreign Policy Branch and preparer/briefer of the President’s Daily Brief. He is co-founder of Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS). William Binney worked for NSA for 36 years, retiring in 2001 as the technical director of world military and geopolitical analysis and reporting; he created many of the collection systems still used by NSA. Reprinted with permission from Consortium News.

Read more by Ray McGovern
 
Always here for ya man :D

* cheesy high-five *
Don't you just love it when your words are intentionally misinterpreted and misrepresented? I know I do...

:rolleyes:

It could even be construed as knowingly posting material that is false, misleading, or inaccurate.

Meanwhile, it's clear that I need to choose a single point when discussing matters with certain individuals, because making multiple points opens the door to selective responses.
 
Don't you just love it when your words are intentionally misinterpreted and misrepresented? I know I do...

:rolleyes:

It could even be construed as knowingly posting material that is false, misleading, or inaccurate.

Meanwhile, it's clear that I need to choose a single point when discussing matters with certain individuals, because making multiple points opens the door to selective responses.
Now you know how I feel...
 
Do I? Has your apparent adoration for Trump and his endeavors been misrepresented as condemnation?
No, more along the line of posting one thing then somehow it turns into 5 things. Though 10 did kinda set himself up yet was able to laugh about it. Something I do need to learn to do.
 
No, more along the line of posting one thing then somehow it turns into 5 things.
Ah so this would be regarding my latter comments.

Talking about 5 things in a single paragraph doesn't magically turn all of those things into one thing.

Mind you this isn't intended to be a criticism of a writing style, I don't play "grammar police" (it's counterproductive and I'm far from an expert), but not separating points into unique paragraphs makes it difficult for those at whom the points are directed to parse out and respond. If "one thing" gets divvied up, it's because that's the easiest way to manage the response.
 
No, more along the line of posting one thing then somehow it turns into 5 things. Though 10 did kinda set himself up yet was able to laugh about it. Something I do need to learn to do.

It depends on what one takes "open the door" to mean, for most people it idiomatically means "paves the way" or "is the first". JP could have been far clearer - on review the statement I replied to is evidently self-contradictory.
 
You can blame Trump, Obama, Republicans or Democrats it really doesn't matter. The media over the last 15-20 years has shown time and time again that they shouldn't be trusted anymore than the politicians they cover.

I think that people forget is that the news media is in the business of making money (not saying you do, but rather in general). In a market that's become incredibly competitive and a bit crowded, each station needs to one-up the other in order to pull ratings. I think we're now reaching the point where the one-upping has ended up being just flat out ridiculous with insane levels of embellishment.
 
I think that people forget is that the news media is in the business of making money (not saying you do, but rather in general). In a market that's become incredibly competitive and a bit crowded, each station needs to one-up the other in order to pull ratings. I think we're now reaching the point where the one-upping has ended up being just flat out ridiculous with insane levels of embellishment.

It's kinda fantastic though, in a way. Because people are having to learn how to truly evaluate for themselves whether something is pure nonsense. Think of it, 50 years ago you could pick up a newspaper or watch TV and simply believe what you were being told (whether it was true or not) and your neighbors and colleagues would never question you because they did the same. Today you can read a headline that is pure nonsense, but don't try to repeat it as truth to your neighbors, because they didn't read it, they read a different one that conflicts. The truth is not more difficult to suss out due to the deluge of information, it might have been almost impossible to determine back when the information was more sparse - it's just that we're revealing how difficult the job of determining what is true really is.

I love it. People no longer believe everything they are told. They're developing skepticism. Perhaps then this will be the death knell for religion.
 
It's kinda fantastic though, in a way. Because people are having to learn how to truly evaluate for themselves whether something is pure nonsense. Think of it, 50 years ago you could pick up a newspaper or watch TV and simply believe what you were being told (whether it was true or not) and your neighbors and colleagues would never question you because they did the same. Today you can read a headline that is pure nonsense, but don't try to repeat it as truth to your neighbors, because they didn't read it, they read a different one that conflicts. The truth is not more difficult to suss out due to the deluge of information, it might have been almost impossible to determine back when the information was more sparse - it's just that we're revealing how difficult the job of determining what is true really is.

I love it. People no longer believe everything they are told. They're developing skepticism. Perhaps then this will be the death knell for religion.

Not a chance. It's all about confirmation bias. People believe what they're inclined to believe ... & the pattern for that is often set at a very early age. I think it's possible to overlook the amount of dissension that existed in the past - digging into historical records/newspaper articles often reveals how extreme the disagreements & antagonisms were. Take a look at the Vietnam war era. But there's no doubt the media are more fragmented than ever before & it's possible for people to get ALL their information from a very partisan source.

I would think Trump has been a bonanza for ALL the branches of media. Whatever you think of him, there's no doubt that he's wildly more "interesting" than almost any other American political figure in recent memory. He, himself, seems very aware of this fact & revels in it - it's the reality TV star thing where "ratings" count for everything.
 
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/24/us/politics/farmers-aid-trade-war.html

American farmers are the backbone of the world, and make everything they have from the sweat of their brow. America produces products that stand on their own as desirable worldwide, and other nations have to resort to seedy subsidizing strategies to make their products competitive. We have to fight those nations socialist agendas undercutting the honest American worker by forcing nations to agree to honest trade agreements...

And we'll do that by artificially protecting American products, and subsidizing them (further) with government resources to help them compete. And if other nations won't let us do that, then we'll isolate ourselves from trade and artificially inflate American products with socialist subsidies here so that nobody, no matter what, loses their jobs.

Wait.. what?

Not a chance. It's all about confirmation bias. People believe what they're inclined to believe ... & the pattern for that is often set at a very early age. I think it's possible to overlook the amount of dissension that existed in the past - digging into historical records/newspaper articles often reveals how extreme the disagreements & antagonisms were. Take a look at the Vietnam war era. But there's no doubt the media are more fragmented than ever before & it's possible for people to get ALL their information from a very partisan source.

I would think Trump has been a bonanza for ALL the branches of media. Whatever you think of him, there's no doubt that he's wildly more "interesting" than almost any other American political figure in recent memory. He, himself, seems very aware of this fact & revels in it - it's the reality TV star thing where "ratings" count for everything.

Maybe for the oldest generation today. I don't think younger folks have much choice but to think for themselves.
 
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