America - The Official Thread
- Thread starter ///M-Spec
- 40,531 comments
- 1,853,103 views
Dotini
(Banned)
- 15,742
- Seattle
- CR80_Shifty
If Democrats get their way, government becomes much larger, guarantees the health and welfare of more, employs more, and taxes more.
Traditionally, Republicans like to shrink and squeeze government - although they are also big spenders and get us into debt just as much if not more than Dems. A plague on both their houses. But Dems are just as likely to blink first, as they are the best friends of big government.
Furthermore, it seems to me Trump must draw his final line in the sand here. The wall is the heart of his promise to MAGA, and the bedrock of his support amongst the deplorables.
Last edited:
- 5,588
- Dahlonega, GA
- ryzno
As far as who blinks first, I don't know.
But I believe the Dems will do anything and everything to block the wall to make Trump look bad on his campaign promise. I also believe they are going to start a plethora of investigations to slow down anything Trump tries to do while they look for anything to impeach him on.
So in other words a repeat of what the Reps did to the Obama administration.
They ain't worried about us, all they worried about is winning so they can finish what Obama started. Destroying America with a Socialist agenda.
- 20,681
- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
Joey D
Premium
- 47,583
- Lakes of the North, MI
- GTP_Joey
- GTP Joey
The odd thing is Trump is probably more socialist than Obama. Attempting to have the government fully control the economy is about as socialist as you can get, at least with the Communist flavor of it.
And really, I'm happy the Democrats are pushing not to allow wall funding. The wall is completely asinine and a massive waste of taxpayer money. Providing actual border security? Sure I can get behind that, but a wall isn't going to make anything more secure. It just seems like a way for someone close to Trump to make money through building contracts.
- 5,588
- Dahlonega, GA
- ryzno
I'm not going to respond if y'all think the wall will literally do nothing.
I moved out of the hood to a gated community for a reason...
Edit:
I do want to say though the $5B price tag is ridiculous. But I wouldn't expect anything but a ridiculously high price on a government contract bid.
I moved out of the hood to a gated community for a reason...
Edit:
I do want to say though the $5B price tag is ridiculous. But I wouldn't expect anything but a ridiculously high price on a government contract bid.
Last edited:
Danoff
Premium
- 34,144
- Mile High City
Much of the illegal immigration population arrives by air. They also use tunnels (currently) to smuggle people and contraband across the border without being spotted.
I'd think that a handful of drones with IR sensors would be at least as effective as a wall for stopping crossings on foot, and cost quite a bit less, and represent technological knowhow and expertise that is better aligned with future usefulness.
Edit:
like this
- 5,588
- Dahlonega, GA
- ryzno
Danoff
Premium
- 34,144
- Mile High City
Each predator apparently costs $4M. The entire program was $2.4B, which is half of the wall cost (although the predator program is an annual budget, but it includes warzone operation). Plus a drone network can be repurposed in a war or natural disaster scenario. It also represents a much better training and development ground than a wall.
We do, apparently, use drones for that purpose. And it sounds like it's going well. The Wall was a promise made by candidate trump who was not privy to reports by the US Border Patrol and Military. It was a solution that was promised before Trump had access to all of the information. It's a boondoggle.
- 30,122
- a baby, candy, it's like taking.
- TexRex72
Cost analysis presented by Trump-friendly media puts the wall at $25B (with supposed reductions in existing security costs), not the $5B that his current extortion scheme is aiming for.
What's more, a wall is not border security done and dusted. A wall is just a barrier to be overcome by people who have strong motivation to overcome it. Ensuring the wall's effectiveness falls on an army of people employing a number of tactics and systems...all of which cost money.
Of course it's not like initial construction of the wall is the end of wall costs either, seeing as it will undoubtedly require maintenance even if you factor in only natural decay and ignore efforts employed by those attempting to overcome it.
What's more, a wall is not border security done and dusted. A wall is just a barrier to be overcome by people who have strong motivation to overcome it. Ensuring the wall's effectiveness falls on an army of people employing a number of tactics and systems...all of which cost money.
Of course it's not like initial construction of the wall is the end of wall costs either, seeing as it will undoubtedly require maintenance even if you factor in only natural decay and ignore efforts employed by those attempting to overcome it.
Joey D
Premium
- 47,583
- Lakes of the North, MI
- GTP_Joey
- GTP Joey
The thing is with a gated community, it's in a built-up area. People are going to see some trying to scale a wall. With the border, large swaths of it are in the middle of nowhere. It's pretty easy to just put up a ladder and climb over it instead of simply walking over it as they do now. No one is going to see you do it, and if it's picked up on a sensor or camera, it's going to take a bit to respond.
As for the cartels will either burrow under it or just blast through it to get into the US. That is assuming they don't just fly the stuff over.
But as @Danoff said, many illegal immigrants arrive by air. They fly in, get a visa, and then simply overstay it. No wall is going to prevent that, only a more diligent customs and border patrol will.
- 5,588
- Dahlonega, GA
- ryzno
I don't think it's a boondoggle, other Presidents have talked about the wall. We finally got one actually trying to do something.
------------
So lets say we do double the drones at the border. That would in theory double the price to $4.8B a year right?
Now lets say we build a wall and and continue to use the same amount of drones. That would be $7.4B the first year and $2.4B every year after.
So in the end we'd still have a swiss cheese border for approximately the same price in the first 2 years.
But with your theory we'd still be paying almost as much as the one time price of the wall every year.
Try explaining that to the people the have a problem spending that much on a wall.
My theory is cheaper in the long run.
Dotini
(Banned)
- 15,742
- Seattle
- CR80_Shifty
The wall is important not because, in isolation, it solves anything. It won't. The French had the Maginot Line, but because of gaps in it (and in the French mentality) it failed. On the other hand, Israel maintains an effective wall, with towers manned by people who can and do use rifles.
But more to the point, Trump needs the wall if he want to maintain political credibility. It's one key to his future in office.
"I went to the wall to save my face, but the wall cried out, 'No hiding place'".
But more to the point, Trump needs the wall if he want to maintain political credibility. It's one key to his future in office.
"I went to the wall to save my face, but the wall cried out, 'No hiding place'".
Danoff
Premium
- 34,144
- Mile High City
No. That's the program budget for the military predator drone for use in war operations. That is not the current budget for drone operations by border patrol. It looks like the border patrol budget for drones is $0.06B per year.
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/03/us/drones-canadian-border.html
At least one set of analysis suggests that there is even better bang for the buck in other technology solutions (like the radar towers mentioned in the article).
No... but also the Wall doesn't cost what Trump is suggesting, and it isn't a solution in and of itself. @Joey D already covered that one.
Joey D
Premium
- 47,583
- Lakes of the North, MI
- GTP_Joey
- GTP Joey
I'm not sure how it doesn't. He promised a wall, yes, but he also made the promise that we weren't going to pay for it. It's lost credibility on his part.
He's also going to get run through the wringer during the election because of it. It's really easy to make an attack ad with a clip of Trump saying he's going to build a wall and make Mexico pay for it. Then immediately show how that didn't happen and even shut down the government in the process.
There's nothing worse than a politician who wants to spend taxpayer money frivolously.
Dotini
(Banned)
- 15,742
- Seattle
- CR80_Shifty
Come the election, with Trump still in office and running for reelection (not a sure bet), he will stand strong proud with many admiring followers if there is a wall standing and on course for a meaningful completion. The symbolism is huge. Who pays is secondary at best.
Joey D
Premium
- 47,583
- Lakes of the North, MI
- GTP_Joey
- GTP Joey
- 5,588
- Dahlonega, GA
- ryzno
Yes. We DO need more border patrol agents to help response times, we do need more drones watching the border, and we do need a wall to help slow them down.
And as far as the ones who fly in, instead of abolishing ICE they need to be allowed more resources so they can do their job better.
I don't care the price of making sure everyone here belongs here.
Even though anyone who heard me would know I'm American, I have to have a bunch of paper work and a state issued ID to prove I belong here.
Everyone should be held to the same standards.
Look what I just found...
https://www.npr.org/2019/01/03/6819...ign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20190103
Last edited:
- 5,051
- Netherlands
They dont need to block the wall for that. He made many promises he never kept or will keep. The reason they are blocking the wall is mainly because building a wall doenst make sense and isnt an efficient way to improve border security.
That said. Why do so many believe that illegal/legal immigration is such a big problem? It is a myth created by the right to vilify a common enemy. How is legal/illegal immigration such a threat to the USA?
- 5,588
- Dahlonega, GA
- ryzno
It's not a myth, it is a problem. Would you be happy if someone came in to your house, without your permission and someone that you don't know at all, said this room in your house is mine, buzz off.
How would you feel?
Edit:
You wouldn't let someone in your house you don't know and can't vet would you?
McLaren
Premium
- 45,747
- Texas
Much in the same way the left likes to vilify anyone against immigration as racist, right? That why conservatives have to point out its illegal immigration they have problem with?
- 5,051
- Netherlands
I cant find any proof it is such an epidemic that a wall has to be built. What harm do these immigrants do to justify building a wall?
Most illegal immigrants are people overstaying their Visa anyways.
Vilifying is different then accusing someone a racist. Villifying is accusing a group of people of much worse then just racist (murderers, drugdealers, rapists etc.) Even calling it an invasion. What happened to the "invasion" of the caravan?
I am not left. I just want to understand why illegal immigration is such a big problem in the USA. To be clear I dont condone illegal immigration, I just dont think there is anything terrible happening to justify building a wall that will cost billions. Illegal immigration is only a minuscule problem to the average american.
- 11,956
- Marin County
I think Trump doesn't have many cards to play.
The democrats, I believe, have a stronger hand but they don't appear to be using it just yet.
Each side has hung their hat on the issue, and the stakes are way higher than is really necessary. Especially over a measly $5B (which is less than our fancy bus terminal in San Francisco). The democrats have managed to put themselves into a corner, in my eyes, that any money for any part of any wall is a major failure. The opposite is true for Trump, but the consequences of failure are likely much more severe.
My take:
-Trump has a LOT more to lose, and a lot less leverage.
-The democrats have a little to lose, a LOT to gain, and can probably pressure Trump into taking a deal through a variety of avenues. He won't come willingly and it will likely take a 'deal he can't refuse' type strategy to get his signature.
Pelosi has spine, but I'm not certain Schumer does. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.
I don't think it's likely to happen, but one thought I had is that is at least conceivable is Trump could pull a complete 180 to save himself. He has effectively no actual ideology other than self-preservation, and I wonder if he could be persuaded to effectively become a democrat again. I'll say this, it wouldn't really surprise me. Or put another way, it would surprise me less than Donald Trump being president.
- 30,122
- a baby, candy, it's like taking.
- TexRex72
For a moment during that infamous meeting with Trump, I was concerned he didn't even have a pulse.
