America - The Official Thread

[TenEightyOne]

I do want to say though the $5B price tag is ridiculous. But I wouldn't expect anything but a ridiculously high price on a government contract bid.

Absolutely. That's about $3000 a metre. I think it will cost more. Way more. Yooj numbers*.

I'm with @Danoff, use the money on tech that works. Why not create some more jobs from it too and see border spending recycle into the economy?

* Trump does the best numbers.

 

[ryzno]

What harm do these ILLEGAL immigrants do to justify building a wall?
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Most illegal immigrants are people overstaying their Visa anyways.

FTFY and I'm done...
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Kinda hard to tell when you can't really count the ones who came in illegally in the first place...
PS: You didn't answer my question.

 

[Famine]

Yes. We DO need more border patrol agents to help response times, we do need more drones watching the border, and we do need a wall to help slow them down.

Again, really? You actually believe that the USA needs a coast-to-coast, southern border wall with Mexico?

Why? I mean, you say "to help slow them down" but that raises a whole boatload (no pun intended) of questions like "Will it do that?" and "How will it do that?" and "Is it really going to be cost effective to 'slow down' 350,000 annual illegal attempts to cross the southern border with a(n optimistically priced) $5bn wall?"

 

[ryzno]

You actually believe that the USA needs a coast-to-coast, southern border wall with Mexico

It's already been proven a wall on the entire border would be impossible. Mountains, rivers all that good stuff. You could use the extra drones I mentioned to watch those areas.

Will it do that?"

Yeah. They gotta climb over it instead of just walking in... And the extra drones and border agents could help as I've said.

Common sense really...

Edit:
I've said it here before, my girls brother is illegal due to unfortunate circumstances.
I have his experiences of coming back from visiting his family yearly of how easy it really is to get in.

IT IS A PROBLEM.

 

[Famine]

It's already been proven a wall on the entire border would be impossible. Mountains, rivers all that good stuff.

Mountains mean you can't build a wall? How did the Chinese manage it 800 years ago?

Yeah. They gotta climb over it instead of just walking in...

I'm sorry, I'm a bit lost here. Are you suggesting that there are currently areas of the US border with Mexico that are so unprotected that Mexicans are "just walking in"? Would it not be appropriate then to protect them to levels approaching that of the rest of the border before sinking billions into a wall you apparently can't build on mountains?

And what about the cost effectiveness of building a $5bn wall to "slow down" 350,000 Mexicans a year?

 

[McLaren]

I cant find any proof it is such an epidemic that a wall has to be built. What harm do these immigrants do to justify building a wall?
Most illegal immigrants are people overstaying their Visa anyways.



Vilifying is different then accusing someone a racist. Villifying is accusing a group of people of much worse then just racist (murderers, drugdealers, rapists etc.) Even calling it an invasion. What happened to the "invasion" of the caravan?

I am not left. I just want to understand why illegal immigration is such a big problem in the USA. To be clear I dont condone illegal immigration, I just dont think there is anything terrible happening to justify building a wall that will cost billions. Illegal immigration is only a minuscule problem to the average american.

What happened to the invasion is the same person who made up immigration problems to vilify a common enemy: Trump.

Yet once again in this thread, you paint the entire right under his words. Most of us do not see immigrants as invaders or enemies. What we want is the legal process done to come here as illegal crossings tend to bring more than just wanting, “The American Dream”.

 

[ryzno]

Are you suggesting that there are currently areas of the US border with Mexico that are so unprotected that Mexicans are "just walking in"?

Yes. Read my edit.

Would it not be appropriate then to protect them to levels approaching that of the rest of the border before sinking billions into a wall you apparently can't build on mountains?

Yeah, that would make sense. Ironically I posted an article in a post earlier from NPR saying they are sending additional troops to help build and upgrade sections of the wall in CA and AZ. They will aslo assist in medical treatment for the convoy.

And what about the cost effectiveness of building a $5bn wall to "slow down" 350,000 Mexicans a year?

Nothing the government does is cost effective. I'd rather my taxes go to that wall than pay benefits to an illegal family cause they just happened to get over the border illegally just in time to pop out a baby and that just happened in the convoy a few weeks ago...

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

The wall is a funny concept. It might solve the problem of undocumented immigrants coming into the USA. It's almost assured that it won't. But it theoretically could.

But the funny part is that the issue is so monumentally (no pun intended) unimportant in the grand scheme of things. The likely-impending housing affordability crisis, the likely-impending stock market tailspin, the massive corporate debt bubble, the likely exponential increase in automation and the employment crisis down the road, the erosion of democracy at the hands of social media, raging income inequality and corporatism, overall mental health of Americans and a host of others. These are the issues I think about a lot. I don't think I've ever had an issue, personally, with undocumented immigrants on any level. I've known a few. I haven't been killed by any of them, surpisingly.

Yet building a wall to stop Mexicans from coming into the USA has become the #1 issue. I don't really understand what stopping them from coming in will solve aside from stopping them from coming in. Crime? Won't make a statistical, if any, difference I'd bet. Unemployment? Good luck improving that figure. If anything we'd have a labor shortage. What else is there? For God's sake, most of them are even Christian. What I'm saying is that it doesn't seem like a big problem.

Building the wall is like going to the doctor when you have four different types of cancer, heart disease, two broken legs, multiple gunshot wounds, and a raging case of turberculosis and then asking the Dr. if he wouldn't mind give you a nose job. Yeah, it attempts to fix a problem (best case scenario, more likely you'll just look like you've had work done) but it's not exactly the most pressing concern. IMO of course.

 

[Northstar]

How is illegal immigration such a threat to the USA?

The only argument I've heard that holds water is that they utilize public services but don't contribute anything towards those programs via income tax. Even that has been shown to have a rather small impact though since illegal immigrants don't qualify for most of the services anyways and they still pay taxes on other things.

Are you suggesting that there are currently areas of the US border with Mexico that are so unprotected that Mexicans are "just walking in"?

Not sure how exactly an above-ground wall will solve that issue though.

 

[ryzno]

In 3 years 350K illegals equals a little over a million. We have a few states that don't even have a million people.
I honestly don't get how people don't think that is a problem...
And find the tunnels and fill'em up with concret, simple. We do have the tools to find the tunnels.

I not wasting my time on this debate any more.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

In 3 years 350K illegals equals a little over a million. We have a few states that don't even have a million people.
I honestly don't get how people don't think that is a problem...

I not wasting my time on this debate any more.

Ok a million people in 3 years. It's kind of a lot. The USA is a big place, but it's a big number. Say the wall reduces that by half and we have 500,000 instead of a million. What is your specific issue with those 500,000 people in the USA. I get that it's not ideal, but what's the really important problem there. Again, I'm not advocating that those people should be here. Really, I think they shouldn't cross over.

 

[Northstar]

I honestly don't get how people don't think that is a problem...

Arguing that the wall is a pointless use of taxpayer dollars isn't the same thing as saying it's not a problem. I would say there are other options that are not only cheaper, but far more beneficial for us in the long run.

And find the tunnels and fill'em up with concret, simple.

The video I posted seems to suggest it's not as simple as one may think.

 

[Famine]

Not sure how exactly an above-ground wall will solve that issue though.

Every time Donald sees Fast and Furious he must pop a blood vessel.

Yes. Read my edit.

I don't see anything in this that shows me the completely unprotected US/Mexico border:

Edit:
I've said it here before, my girls brother is illegal due to unfortunate circumstances.
I have his experiences of coming back from visiting his family yearly of how easy it really is to get in.

IT IS A PROBLEM.

Yeah, that would make sense.

More sense than paying two orders of magnitude more for a partial wall that you'd need monitored anyway...

I'd rather my taxes go to that wall than pay benefits to an illegal family cause they just happened to get over the border illegally just in time to pop out a baby and that just happened in the convoy a few weeks ago...

What if you could do... neither?

Nothing the government does is cost effective.

Nothing the government does is cost efficient, but just to repeat myself, a $5bn wall (which is grossly underestimating the cost) is over $3,000 for each and every person who has illegally attempted to cross the southern border into the US and been detained in the last five years.

There's been more than an 80% drop in the number of foiled crossing attempts since 2000. Of the 11m illegal immigrants in the USA (a number also falling, suggesting that more are leaving or dying than entering), 9m are part of the US work force, and only around half of the people illegally resident in the USA are Mexicans.

So let's be incredibly optimistic and suggest that half of the 2m non-working illegals resident in the USA are Mexicans and half of those are the children you think are immediately born in the USA from immigrant convoys crossing the border (with the other half being the mothers, who are not known for immediate post-partum employment), you're advocating paying at least $10,000 per child to slow them down from coming into the country to save... how much in child benefits? And you don't think that step one should be "monitor more of the border more effectively", rather than "build a '$5bn' wall we can't put on mountains, or the Colorado River, or the entire stretch of the border that runs from El Paso to the sea along the Rio Grande, that we'd have to monitor anyway once it's built"?


I'm genuinely surprised. I've literally never encountered a single human being who has thought the wall to be a feasible idea, much less a good one. I always figured it was a symbolic thing that nobody took as if it was a literal wall, Han Dynasty-style - or Fascist East Germany style, by the looks of the design.

In 3 years 350K illegals equals a little over a million. We have a few states that don't even have a million people.

You're assuming no outflow. The US illegal resident population has actually fallen by around 400,000 in the last three years - while the numbers of Mexicans has fallen both as a raw figure (by 1.5m) and a percentage of the total (by 7%) in the last ten years. The rate of attempted southern border crossings has fallen from 1.75m per annum to 350k in the last 17 years - so why is it a problem now when crossing attempts, population and percentage population are at 20-year lows?

I not wasting my time on this debate any more.

Hmm. I only asked you a few questions about how the wall will help and how cost effective it will be. It's not like the whole idea would fall apart under the vaguest of scrutiny, is it?

 

[Joey D]

I'd rather my taxes go to that wall than pay benefits to an illegal family cause they just happened to get over the border illegally just in time to pop out a baby and that just happened in the convoy a few weeks ago...

I'm not sure how much of your taxes even go to support illegal immigrants. I work in healthcare, every place I've ever worked at that provided charity care to undocumented immigrants did so through its foundation, meaning nothing came from taxpayers, only donations. In Michigan, it was actually a big problem since illegal immigrants didn't want to use any services since they didn't want to be found out. This ultimately led to a high infant mortality rate and a small section of the community having issues that were easily treatable with proper medical care.

The biggest abuser of health services (and I suspect all services) are US citizens. Go to any ER at any hospital and it'll be pretty easy to pick the leeches off the system. They're almost always going to be super trashy people looking for pain pills or the ones who reek of cheap cigarettes and want something for a non-emergency medical condition (typically a cold).

 

[McLaren]

In 3 years 350K illegals equals a little over a million. We have a few states that don't even have a million people.
I honestly don't get how people don't think that is a problem...
And find the tunnels and fill'em up with concret, simple. We do have the tools to find the tunnels.

I not wasting my time on this debate any more.

So in 7 years, that's 2,450,000 illegals.

My dude, Obama deported more than that in the same time frame. The wall is nothing more than a flex if the former Deporter in Chief was basically kicking them all back out without one.

How many people have been deported under Obama?
President Barack Obama has often been referred to by immigration groups as the "Deporter in Chief."
Between 2009 and 2015 his administration has removed more than 2.5 million people through immigration orders, which doesn’t include the number of people who "self-deported" or were turned away and/or returned to their home country at the border by U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP).

 

[Danoff]

I'm genuinely surprised. I've literally never encountered a single human being who has thought the wall to be a feasible idea, much less a good one. I always figured it was a symbolic thing that nobody took as if it was a literal wall, Han Dynasty-style - or Fascist East Germany style, by the looks of the design.

I need to introduce you to at least one of my relatives who visited me over the holidays.

 

[ryzno]

The wall is nothing more than a flex if the former Deporter in Chief was basically kicking them all back out without one.

Ok, but he didn't have sanctuary cities refusing to comply or a political party calling him racist for deporting them.(If the Reps were crying that back then as long as they(Dems)have been now, I'll change my avatar to Obama for a month)
That's what I find so odd. Obama said illegal immigration was a problem the people cheered, Obama said illegal immigrants were hurting the middle class people cheered.
Trump says similar things him and his supporters are racist.
That's why I said I'm done debating.
It's nothing against you, I just don't recall people here saying anything back then.

 

[McLaren]

Ok, but he didn't have sanctuary cities refusing to comply or a political party calling him racist for deporting them.(If the Reps were crying that back then as long as they(Dems)have been now, I'll change my avatar to Obama for a month)

He did have cities doing that. He introduced a policy that put extra restraints on sanctuary cities by cutting funding towards them if they refused to help immigration authorities. The Republicans were happy with it & many of the Democrats kept quiet. It was a very difficult thing to be vocal about though as it specifically targeted inmates that would be turned over to immigration.

But yeah, he definitely wasn't called racist over it.

That's what I find so odd. Obama said illegal immigration was a problem the people cheered, Obama said illegal immigrants were hurting the middle class people cheered.
Trump says similar things him and his supporters are racist.
That's why I said I'm done debating.
It's nothing against you, I just don't recall people here saying anything back then.

There's a video of Bill, I believe, pushing for stronger border security and applause from many. The problem Trump has always had is that he can not articulate his thoughts that would show what he wants to do. He's very brash, blunt, speaking fully what's on his mind at that moment. He doesn't have the ability to compose his thoughts like Obama or Bill did on this issue, and speak in a tone that wouldn't rile up people. Obama was a super-charismatic President which is why as a person, he's very relatable and easy to listen to, even if you don't like his policies.

I get what you're saying. The Washington Examiner wrote an article out the Democrats' silence with Obama in an article a year or so ago.

Democrats are expressing outrage over the administration's push Monday to punish so-called "sanctuary cities" for blocking federal authorities from seizing illegal criminals for deportation.

"This administration not only is trying to bully law enforcement and make them ICE agents, but they're trying to bully immigrant families. This is not who we are as a country," declared Democratic Party chief Tom Perez.

But unstated is that former President Obama instituted similar policies almost a year ago when he bowed to House GOP pressure and had his Justice Department announce that some federal funding to the sanctuaries would be cut off if those jurisdictions didn't help Immigration and Customs Enforcement's enforcement and removal agents.

When the Obama administration set out to punish the cities, they were given a wide birth from Democrats who said little in opposition

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/flashback-dems-said-nothing-when-obama-punished-sanctuary-cities

 

[PocketZeven]

FTFY and I'm done...
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Kinda hard to tell when you can't really count the ones who came in illegally in the first place...
PS: You didn't answer my question.

Letting someone in your house vs your country is not really a good comparison. People dont enter your house illegally to find a job or to ask for asylum. But if it were a family member or friend (in a lot of cases illegal immigrants have family/friends who are legal) I would definately let them in my house under certain circumstances.

But I still fail to see how big a problem it is for the USA. At the moment Trump administration has made this the biggest point, in part because he ultimately failed to repeal and replace Obamacare. How do these illegal immigrants affect the lives of average americans so much that Trump needs this wall and will even shut down the border and government for it. I dont see the evidence for it to be a large problem.

My parents were immigrants in Europe and have had family members that were illegal. Their life was difficult and they never tried to get social security or other benefits, out of fear of getting caught. What they did do is work hard (albeit illegal) and contribute to the economy by paying rent, buying stuff etc. I think this is the same for most illegal immigrants it is the same.

 

[ryzno]

I've literally never encountered a single human being who has thought the wall to be a feasible idea, much less a good one. I always figured it was a symbolic thing that nobody took as if it was a literal wall, Han Dynasty-style - or Fascist East Germany style, by the looks of the design.

That's you. You can deny it all you want but it will slow people down and deter others, some will still try and succeed.
But if built and add more drones and border patrol agents as Danoff brought up. You and me know it will lower illegal immigration.
I never said it would completely stop it. I'd be a fool to think that.
I know exactly what it looks like, I'm just calling it what everyone else is man. It looks like a huge steel picket fence. Which will not help with drugs. They can make the packages smaller a push them through, or do like they have been and catapult/launch them over. I don't think you'll find anyone willing to risk their life to get over it like that lol.
I said I was done debating this cause you won't change my mind and others won't get me to agree that illegal immigrants aren't a problem.
I also read somewhere 250-300 known terrorist have entered illegally through the Mexican border. I know you don't worry about terrorism cause of stats and stuff. But I have a problem with that. Screw me for worrying about our country's safety. I also never said it's just Mexicans. Y'all assume too much.

 

[Famine]

You can deny it all you want

I haven't denied anything. I've asked you questions.

 

[ryzno]

I haven't denied anything. I've asked you questions.

I don't have answers for all your questions. Danoff asked for people's opinions. Multiple people answered and it seems I'm the only one getting grilled for my opinion(as usual).
Have a good day, happy new year.

 

[Famine]

Multiple people answered and it seems I'm the only one getting grilled for my opinion(as usual).

You said you believed we needed a wall. I asked you why. I then asked you further questions based on your responses. That's hardly grilling, it's a conversation.

 

[ryzno]

You said you believed we needed a wall. I asked you why. I then asked you further questions based on your responses. That's hardly grilling, it's a conversation.

My point was they were going to do everything in their power to stop Trump from building the wall. And start a bunch of investigations to slow down anything he tries to do.
My opinion on the wall has nothing to do with Danoffs question.
But of course y'all(you Ten Joey) gotta ask why do you want a wall.
That wasn't my point and you know stuff like this frustrates me.
When I ask for people's opinions I read them say thanks and move along. I don't care why they think that. And we've been through this before.
Answering your questions is not going to change my opinion.
If you insist on me answering them.
Please keep them short and sewwt without a whole bunch of other stuff and I'll try to answer them.
I don't like trying to multi quote long posts and my phones keyboard gets funky here when I try to do multi quoting and other things mid post when my responce is long.

Edit:
And when you said they should upgrade the sections that already exist I told you I added a link from NPR in an edit(I believe you missed it or misquoted it) that said they are sending troops to the border to build and upgrade sections of the wall and assist in medical treatment for the convoy.

 

[Joey D]

I know exactly what it looks like, I'm just calling it what everyone else is man. It looks like a huge steel picket fence. Which will not help with drugs. They can make the packages smaller a push them through, or do like they have been and catapult/launch them over. I don't think you'll find anyone willing to risk their life to get over it like that lol.

According to your profile, you're 33 so you remember the Berlin Wall. People risk their lives every day to cross it and it had armed guards. Hell people risk their lives trying to make it from North to South Korea and that wall is a gigantic minefield with heavy weapons and entire military platoons fortifying it. Where there's a will, there's a way.

Or I guess they could just drive over it:

My opinion on the wall has nothing to do with Danoffs question.
But of course y'all(you Ten Joey) gotta ask why do you want a wall.
That wasn't my point and you know stuff like this frustrates me.
When I ask for people's opinions I read them say thanks and move along. I don't care why they think that. And we've been through this before.

Hold up. You post on a discussion board then get frustrated when people have a discussion? That's the backbone of any forum. If you post something, chances are someone is going to comment, question, or agree with it.

 

[Famine]

But of course y'all(you Ten Joey) gotta ask why do you want a wall.
That wasn't my point and you know stuff like this frustrates me.

Nonetheless, you stated that you believed a wall is necessary. Surely if you hold that belief you can express why you do?

Answering your questions is not going to change my opinion.

It's not intended to, although forming your answers should force you to analyse the opinion in order to put it into words - which will reveal if there are any flaws in the opinion that you can address with yourself. In turn, your answers will help others do the same internal analysis of their opinions. That's how it works.

If you insist on me answering them.
Please keep them short and sewwt without a whole bunch of other stuff and I'll try to answer them.

Complicated matters do not lend themselves to short and sweet questions. Like when you suggest 350k crossing attempts in 12 months is 1.1 million coming in over three years and that's a whole state, without realising that the actual illegal immigrant population is reducing, as is the Mexican component of that as a proportion of the whole.

Or when you say suggest it's a massive problem, despite illegal immigration being less than a fifth of what it was at the start of the century, and the illegal population being at a low across that time.

This is how discussions work: the exchange of information and ideas.

You have stated, with all the belief in the world, that a state-sized amount of illegals are coming into the USA every three years from Mexico. The facts show that there's a net outflow of illegals from the USA, mainly of Mexican-origin people. Now you have new information that replaces the belief you had, and you can incorporate it into your view that the USA needs - needs - a $5bn structural partial border.

Again, with your beliefs, you've stated that you'd rather spend tax money on this partial border than on child support for illegals conveniently born on the US side of the border, as if they're equivalent in some way. The facts show that even if half of all non-working Mexican illegals are new-born children (and the other half their mothers; which would thus require every other illegal to be part of the labour force), and we don't account for the outflow of illegals, the wall would cost $10,000 per child. Now you have new information that replaces the belief you had, and you can incorporate it into your view that the USA needs - needs - a $5bn structural partial border.


So when asking why you believe the USA needs this wall, two of the things you believe that form the basis of this belief have been replaced with facts.

And, lest we forget, it's your contention that the wall is only there to slow them down, which we're still not clear on if the wall will succeed in doing that or how, aside from your "common sense" declaration that it's harder to climb a wall than walk across an unspecified unprotected border, as if illegals routinely just walk across this border that nobody's watching, rather than flying, sailing or tunnelling (which the wall won't stop)...


That all leaves us with the question of if it's to slow people down rather than stop them, they aren't walking across an unprotected border anyway, the wall won't cover much of the border because of mountains (apparently) and rivers, the people it's intended to slow down are actually leaving the country rather than entering it, and it'll cost more (taxpayer) money to build than you'd spend on the problem you've identified within the country that you want it to fix... why does the USA "need" the wall?

Help people understand that and you will change their minds...

 

[ryzno]

Hold up. You post on a discussion board then get frustrated when people have a discussion? That's the backbone of any forum. If you post something, chances are someone is going to comment, question, or agree with it.

I've answered the questions, they are starting to become repetitive as if y'all expect me to change my opinion and if I do or say something wrong someone will call me out on that. It starts to feel like a lose lose situation if you know what I mean.
I don't know why my post needed to be questioned. They are going to do everything they can to stop him from building the wall and the are going to start a bunch of investigations to slow down everything he tries to do.
My opinion of the wall has nothing to do with what my opinion of what the Dems are going to do now that they have the house which was the original question unless I've become lost as usual being quoted by 5 different people.

 

[Danoff]

I was thinking about some of the comments in this thread last night, and how people were pointing out the weirdness that suddenly a wall is a top priority for the US.

Going from the Obama administration to the Trump administration has been an interesting ride culturally. I don't think that Obama necessarily had much to do with it, but what it felt like during the Obama admin was that there was a super critical microscope on any problems going on in America. We could not get enough of talking about income inequality, police brutality, racism and other prejudices, and health care. It was a nonstop festival of how crappy America is (or at least is purported to be). Then suddenly we get Trump, and the only thing this guy wants to focus on is how crappy the rest of the world is, and how crappy they are to us. Suddenly it's all "China is taking advantage of us", or "they took our jerbs", or "illegal immigration is ruining everything", or "trade agreements are hurting us", or "NATO is taking advantage". Suddenly the enemy is only outside.

I think that's part of what has put Trump in office - his ability to change the social focus onto really... absurd topics like a border wall.

 

[Joey D]

I've answered the questions, they are starting to become repetitive as if y'all expect me to change my opinion and if I do or say something wrong someone will call me out on that. It starts to feel like a lose lose situation if you know what I mean.
I don't know why my post needed to be questioned

I think it's people trying to understand your point and questioning how you came to that conclusion. It's all part of a discussion and if someone doesn't agree with it, then they're going to question it. However, you have every opportunity to come back, with fact backed sources, to show them why your opinion carries weight. As I said, it's how a discussion board functions.

They are going to do everything they can to stop him from building the wall and the are going to start a bunch of investigations to slow down everything he tries to do.

By they, I'm guessing you mean Democrats. They should do everything they can to prevent Trump from forcing through a costly project that will more than likely not yield any meaningful results. In fact, every representative should do everything in their power, regardless of their party affiliation, to prevent wasteful spending.

The National Debt is now at a historic high under Trump. That alone should make everyone question what we are spending money on. And if Trump wants to keep issuing tax cuts, which I assume he does, then he needs to understand you can't just keep spending money that's not coming in. Cut spending, then cut taxes. It's the best way to stimulate the economy and make the country run smoothly. Acting like you have a money tree growing in Washington isn't the answer.

 

[ryzno]

The facts show that there's a net outflow of illegals from the USA,

How can you have facts if you can't count them or keep track of them? No one has a real number of illegal immigrants they are estimates.
We have reports of 5-10K+ at the border waiting to come in. Right there no one really knows anything, no one knows how many there actually are or how many of them have already come in illegally.
Anyone that says they have concrete numbers is a lier and an estimate is not fact.
Also I don't see 5-10K+ at the border trying to leave. Gwinnett county would beg to differ too. Our legal and illegal immigrant population grew way more than county leaders expected the last few years.

The National Debt is now at a historic high under Trump.

Like it has any other direction to go...
I'm not clicking it but I saw a story about that yesterday. Considering all the crap he has to fix that Obama screwed up not to mention Bush and Obama started the problem. You can't put it on him. They way the government has gotten out of control America will never be out of debt. Trump has slowed down the growth of the debt but I honestly don't see how it will ever stop considering America is growing to fast for its own good IMO. If he blows it through the roof like Obama did then I'll have a problem.

By they, I'm guessing you mean Democrats. They should do everything they can to prevent Trump from forcing through a costly project that will more than likely not yield any meaningful results. In fact, every representative should do everything in their power, regardless of their party affiliation, to prevent wasteful spending.

How about the government stops giving themselves undeserved raises. Better yet, go without pay if they are so concerned about the debt.