America - The Official Thread

[PocketZeven]

I've answered the questions, they are starting to become repetitive as if y'all expect me to change my opinion and if I do or say something wrong someone will call me out on that. It starts to feel like a lose lose situation if you know what I mean.
I don't know why my post needed to be questioned. They are going to do everything they can to stop him from building the wall and the are going to start a bunch of investigations to slow down everything he tries to do.
My opinion of the wall has nothing to do with what my opinion of what the Dems are going to do now that they have the house which was the original question unless I've become lost as usual being quoted by 5 different people.

Lets look at it a different way. You are focusing with the presumption that illegal immigration is somehow a large problem in the USA (it isnt), just because Trump and/or Fox and/or conservative news tells you so. But is it really? You really need to ask the right questions. Is illegal immigration really an epidemic at all? Is their any truth in accusations that illegal immigrants receive social benefits, what percentage of crime is caused by illegal immigrants? Why do people on the right think illegal immigration is a problem. What negative impact is there in daily life?

If you take out the dem vs rep discussion completely and look at the problem of illegal immigration objectively and bipartisan. (so no accusation of racism or claims of invasions)

Illegal immigration in reality only has a minor effect on the average american. What benefit does a wall bring? Is the Wall costeffective? etc.

 

[TexRex]

We spend as much subsidizing farmers as we do on all of NASA.

I'm not really for agricultural subsidies either, but to my mind that's a much tougher nut to crack.

As far as beauty revealed through efforts made possible by funding NASA...

Spoiler

When I think about spending money on science, I always think about the progression of nuclear physics.

Before 1896 it would have been impossible to know that there was such an enormously powerful source of energy that was nuclear fission. We didn't know what we didn't know. Evaluating such a thing in a purely ROI sense would have never lead to the development of nuclear science. It was the poking around (at great expense) to see whats there that did. Say what you want about the development of nuclear physics, including nuclear weapons, it is an enormously important field.

You know what they say about hindsight...

(I highly recommend the book The Making of the Atomic Bomb for a fantastic retelling of the history of nuclear physics)

I just might check it out; this was enjoyable.

There are a number of different ways to approach it. When I've thought about it the idea, I've imagined having different contract options where you might promise a given amount for a certain period of time to help prevent wild fluctuations in program funding over time. Then you also have to consider some of the difficulty this might pose for the average person. For those people that may not have the time of knowledge to micromanage their contributions, there could also be the option to donate your portion to an elected representative for them to use on voters' behalf.

I particularly like the idea of citizens being able to prevent/pull funding from unnecessary military operations (mostly wars that aren't directly self defense).

It'd be a way for those concerned with how the country is run to more directly affect how it's run, as well as provide feedback regarding how it's run.

As for those either less concerned or lacking the ability to make such decisions, I envision a choice of "spending packages" that provides a simplified overview of fund distribution for each option. Perhaps even a "no specific funding" option could be included, though it would be rather sad.

I'm still concerned about "funny stuff" that already transpires in hallways and behind closed doors of big, grey (sometimes white) buildings. Even without this, such implementation is likely to trigger legislation that attempts to circumvent spending allocations.

Edit to use a smaller image that actually displays.

 

[Famine]

Do you have a link you are confident in of how many are actually down there?

I don't even know where you're talking about... Look:

Why is "We have reports of 5-10K+ at the border waiting to come in." (which border? Where on that border? Where do the reports come from?) acceptable, but you can sweep published figures showing a net annual drop of 200,000 over the last three years under the rug as if they're irrelevant?

Critically evaluate what? What is there to critically think about?

Why a wall is what's needed.

You came up with a few points as to why you think it's needed, but we've already established that some of them don't hold up to much scrutiny. Mexican immigration is down - way down - to the point where there's a net outflow of Mexico-origin illegal migrants across the southern border. You cite paying for US-newborn children of illegals as something the wall will combat, but it's extremely marginal if it's financially more effective, even in a best case scenario. We haven't established if or how the wall will be effective at "slowing down" the inflow of Mexico-origin illegal migrants.


Again, Mexico-origin illegal immigration has fallen by 80% in two decades (with Mexicans now actually making less than half of those people), the Mexican illegal population of the USA has fallen both in raw numbers and as a proportion of the USA's illegal population in the last five years. The USA is returning and deporting more illegals than come into the country, and has done every year since 2011. In 2019, illegal immigration is as small an issue as it has ever been. Nearly half of all people illegally living in the USA are people who had visas that have expired. Two thirds of all Mexicans living illegally in the USA have been there 10 years.

In the face of all of this, you think 2019 is the time we need a coast-to-coast (less mountains, apparently, and rivers) multi-billion dollar wall to help fix the problem (by "slowing them down", somehow) of people walking over land across the unprotected Southern border. So all you need to do is show people the data that has convinced you to arrive at this conclusion and everyone will agree with you.

How useless y'all think it'll be when y'all have as much evidence as a I on how useful it could be? Why America is such a bad county cause we don't want to just let anyone in, even though we're trying to be shamed into letting them all in cause some have kids and they had to walk here? Or should I think about the possibility of terrorist taking advantage of our poor border? Or should I think about the Deporter in Chief who didn't have a deranged party and courts blocking his fundind cuts to sanctuary cities, while I the Prez and all of his supporters are labeled racist? Or should I think that it makes no difference that even though illegals are leaving and there are plenty wanting to take their place? Or should I think about more drones and border patrol agents that might do as much good as the wall? Or should I think about I'm some deranged racist American that's over protective of his country?

This all seems rather emotional and somewhat free of information. That again calls to an opinion arrived at through belief rather than through facts.

Then why ask?

Simply because it's an incredibly banal thing to say, and the unfinished sentence left me perplexed as to what exactly it meant. It's like saying "If I hadn't already had breakfast, then I'd have to.". Okay. And?

That aside, you keep telling me that there's already a wall in one post, and then in the next that the border is unprotected and your brother-in-law (who you won't report) can cross it in an unspecified place at will.

 

[Exorcet]

Maybe it could be more broadly distributed. Say you can allocate 20% of your income tax to one of these categories:

Broader categories would likely make the system easier to manage and use, but I think some effort should be made to allow people to focus their contribution to very specific areas. This would be especially important if there was any risk of having categories manipulated for one reason or another.

The percentage would have to be sizable enough to actually have some effect in terms of congressional budgeting, but not so large that it would destabilize the budget entirely. At best, it would probably form a kind of bellwether for the sentiment of the American public. Voting with your wallet. Congress: "Oh, they seem to want to prioritize fixing things inside the country right now." Or, "oh, they seem to be wanting to strengthen the military right now."

I agree that the government will need a set amount of stable funding, and that even if the voter's choice can only be exercised on a portion of what they're paying in taxes it could still be put to good use.

I'm still concerned about "funny stuff" that already transpires in hallways and behind closed doors of big, grey (sometimes white) buildings. Even without this, such implementation is likely to trigger legislation that attempts to circumvent spending allocations.

This is definitely something to be concerned about, but I think as long as the goal of citizen controlled funding is outlined and protected in law (which is to give them more direct power over the government) it should have a fair chance of working as intended. As always there is the risk of things going wrong if people don't care to be vigilant, but I don't think that should stop us from trying to better things.

 

[Danoff]

I'm not really for agricultural subsidies either, but to my mind that's a much tougher nut to crack.

As far as beauty revealed through efforts made possible by funding NASA...

Spoiler

You know what they say about hindsight...


I just might check it out; this was enjoyable.


It'd be a way for those concerned with how the country is run to more directly affect how it's run, as well as provide feedback regarding how it's run.

As for those either less concerned or lacking the ability to make such decisions, I envision a choice of "spending packages" that provides a simplified overview of fund distribution for each option. Perhaps even a "no specific funding" option could be included, though it would be rather sad.

I'm still concerned about "funny stuff" that already transpires in hallways and behind closed doors of big, grey (sometimes white) buildings. Even without this, such implementation is likely to trigger legislation that attempts to circumvent spending allocations.

Edit to use a smaller image that actually displays.

Broader categories would likely make the system easier to manage and use, but I think some effort should be made to allow people to focus their contribution to very specific areas. This would be especially important if there was any risk of having categories manipulated for one reason or another.

I agree that the government will need a set amount of stable funding, and that even if the voter's choice can only be exercised on a portion of what they're paying in taxes it could still be put to good use.


This is definitely something to be concerned about, but I think as long as the goal of citizen controlled funding is outlined and protected in law (which is to give them more direct power over the government) it should have a fair chance of working as intended. As always there is the risk of things going wrong if people don't care to be vigilant, but I don't think that should stop us from trying to better things.

I've always been of the opinion that if people could choose to allocate their tax dollars that NASA would do very well. Currently NASA occupies 0.5% of the federal budget.

 

[TexRex]

I've always been of the opinion that if people could choose to allocate their tax dollars that NASA would do very well. Currently NASA occupies 0.5% of the federal budget.

Sure it would--space sells.

 

[Joey D]

Apparently, Trump might be considering declaring a "national emergency" to get the military to build the wall: https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/tru...secure-wall-funding-sources/story?id=60164759

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Part of me feels like the democrats shouldn't challenge this too hard. If this were to happen, they can still appear to have remained inflexible on allocating money for the wall and re-open the government and they can paint Trump as a president who feels he is above the law. It's kind of a nice opportunity for the dems, in my eyes.

 

[Danoff]

Apparently, Trump might be considering declaring a "national emergency" to get the military to build the wall: https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/tru...secure-wall-funding-sources/story?id=60164759

Yea I share the article's skepticism that it would work. But it does demonstrate a complete disregard for governmental checks and balances, democratic process, and law. So there's that.

 

[TexRex]

Apparently, Trump might be considering declaring a "national emergency" to get the military to build the wall: https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/tru...secure-wall-funding-sources/story?id=60164759

 

[Dennisch]

Well, the military budget is big enough for it. 5 billion would make it less than 1% of the budget.

The art of of the deal, right there!

ish.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Yea I share the article's skepticism that it would work. But it does demonstrate a complete disregard for governmental checks and balances, democratic process, and law. So there's that.

Again, I find it kind of humorous. The prospect of declaring a national emergency to keep poor people out. If the actual Mexican army was invading, I don't think you would build a wall.

Everyone knows this is absurd right? Even his most loyal supporters must realize it's absurd at some level. Right?

 

[Novalee]

federal grand jury being used by the team of Special Counsel Robert Mueller has been extended, Fox News has learned. The original term of 18 months for the Washington, D.C.-based jury expired on Friday.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/mueller-grand-jury-term-extended-following-friday-expiration

It would seem mr mueller has months left to go . Also adam schift said any evidence he turns up looking into things he will give to team mueller for further consideration

 

[Keef]

You know how awesome America is?

Our useless commie puppet president shut down our government. You know who is part of the government? The FAA. You know what the FAA does? It issues medical certificates. You know who needs medical certificates to do their jobs? Pilots. You know what pilot happens to need a medical certificate right now?

Me.

I'm legally not allowed to work the job I have right now. What kind of crap is that? So I'm sitting here sucking down unemployment again, delaying my career progress and savings plans, and next week I have a meeting with the Ohio unemployment office to explain to them why I'm both employed and unemployed at the exact same time.

EDIT: Just sent a scathing email to senator Rob Portman noting that the Republican Party is responsible for my increase in the unemployment rate. It'll probably go unread.

 

[Biggles]

The problem Trump has always had is that he can not articulate his thoughts that would show what he wants to do. He's very brash, blunt, speaking fully what's on his mind at that moment. He doesn't have the ability to compose his thoughts like Obama or Bill did on this issue, and speak in a tone that wouldn't rile up people. Obama was a super-charismatic President which is why as a person, he's very relatable and easy to listen to, even if you don't like his policies.

I don't think many people have described Obama as "very relatable" or "super-charismatic. He certainly is an effective speaker though & a thoughtful, reflective person.

Trump, on the other hand, "doesn't have the ability to compose his thoughts" ... in fact, more troublingly, he doesn't seem to think that there is any real need for him to do so - he just relies on his "gut" instincts. And unfortunately he has the gut instincts of a ignorant, racist, womanizing idiot. He's not racist like KKK racist, he's just casually, ignorantly racist. He's someone who's never seriously examined his ideas about life to see if they might need re-evaluating. Someone who based his campaign on implying that the majority of Mexican immigrants are rapists. Someone who implied that American POWs are unheroic because they were captured. Someone who regularly insults & demeans his political opponents, both Republican & Democrat, in the most juvenile way.

Why would such a person, who "doesn't have the ability to compose his thoughts" be a suitable candidate for leader of the most powerful, influential nation on the planet?

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

You know how awesome America is?

Our useless commit puppet president shut down our government. You know who is part of the government? The FAA. You know what the FAA does? It issues medical certificates. You know who needs medical certificates to do their jobs? Pilots. You know what pilot happens to need a medical certificate right now?

Me.

I'm legally not allowed to work the job I have right now. What kind of crap is that? So I'm sitting here sucking down unemployment again, delaying my career progress and savings plans, and next week I have a meeting with the Ohio unemployment office to explain to them why I'm both employed and unemployed at the exact same time.

EDIT: Just sent a scathing email to senator Rob Portman noting that the Republican Party is responsible for my increase in the unemployment rate. It'll probably go unread.

It's probably not really comforting for your situation due to the power structures currently in place, but I've had far more luck getting in touch with Reps as opposed to Senators. My rep got back to me within like 2 days last time I wrote him!

 

[Danoff]

You know how awesome America is?

Our useless commit puppet president shut down our government. You know who is part of the government? The FAA. You know what the FAA does? It issues medical certificates. You know who needs medical certificates to do their jobs? Pilots. You know what pilot happens to need a medical certificate right now?

Me.

I'm legally not allowed to work the job I have right now. What kind of crap is that? So I'm sitting here sucking down unemployment again, delaying my career progress and savings plans, and next week I have a meeting with the Ohio unemployment office to explain to them why I'm both employed and unemployed at the exact same time.

EDIT: Just sent a scathing email to senator Rob Portman noting that the Republican Party is responsible for my increase in the unemployment rate. It'll probably go unread.

If it's any consolation to you, it puts international adoptions on hold too, because people can't get the necessary visa approval. So there are literally kids sitting in orphanages in various countries waiting for our government to open so that they can go to their new home.

 

[Tornado]

I don't think many people have described Obama as "very relatable" or "super-charismatic.

Have you scientifically polled everyone?

 

[Biggles]

Have you scientifically polled everyone?

Of course. Just like everybody else on GTPlanet, I conduct extensive scientific polling before offering any opinion.

 

[Keef]

It's probably not really comforting for your situation due to the power structures currently in place, but I've had far more luck getting in touch with Reps as opposed to Senators. My rep got back to me within like 2 days last time I wrote him!

The House is now Democrat-controlled so that's a non-issue. The Republicans in the Senate and the President are the only ones left pushing this shutdown.

If it's any consolation to you, it puts international adoptions on hold too, because people can't get the necessary visa approval. So there are literally kids sitting in orphanages in various countries waiting for our government to open so that they can go to their new home.

I know a lot of people have much bigger problems than me but until the problem effects you directly it's really hard to understand how it can effect anybody. I'm just trying to get a better job while some kids are hoping to begin their lives altogether.

 

[Dotini]

Why would such a person, who "doesn't have the ability to compose his thoughts" be a suitable candidate for leader of the most powerful, influential nation on the planet?

I feel your pain, brother. I too would prefer to live in the past. But annoyingly Trump announces fresh and ever more amazing thoughts. Where does he get such ideas? Russians? Israelis?

President Donald Trump on Friday said he told Democrats earlier in the day that he would keep the government partially closed for years, or as long as it takes to get funding for his proposed border wall.

Trump also asserted that he had the authority to declare a national emergency and build the wall without congressional approval.
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/04/tru...ed-for-months-or-even-years-schumer-says.html

 

[Biggles]

I feel your pain, brother. I too would prefer to live in the past. But annoyingly Trump announces fresh and ever more amazing thoughts. Where does he get such ideas? Russians? Israelis?

Honestly? I think he IS that stupid. He is like your loud, obnoxious, opinionated uncle - very set in his ideas & completely unwilling to stop & reflect on other possibilities.

Have you scientifically polled everyone?

With respect to this: I phrased my remarks badly. I should have said: I think many people would not have considered Obama as "very relatable" or "super-charismatic". Clearly many (myself included) did. But the criticism often levelled at Obama, by supporters as well as opponents, was that he was "aloof" & intellectual. I'm fine with that: better aloof & intellectual than pandering & ignorant.

"Relatablity" & "charisma" (to a lesser extent) seem to be extremely important factors in deciding Presidential elections (although obviously mixed in with many other factors). JFK beat Nixon, Carter beat Gerald Ford, Reagan beat Carter, Dukakis lost to H. W. Bush, who then lost to Bill Clinton, Dole lost to Bill Clinton, Gore lost to W. Bush, McCain lost to Obama, Romney lost to Obama. Then HRC, who nobody could describe as relatable (or charismatic), lost to Trump.

McLaren earlier posted that many people voted for HRC because she was a woman. I'm sure this is true, but I'm sure many people voted against her for the same reason (I have no scientific poll). Similarly, I think many people voted for Obama because he was black ... but many people voted against him for the same reason (no scientific poll).

 

[PocketZeven]

You know how awesome America is?

Our useless commie puppet president shut down our government. You know who is part of the government? The FAA. You know what the FAA does? It issues medical certificates. You know who needs medical certificates to do their jobs? Pilots. You know what pilot happens to need a medical certificate right now?

Me.

I'm legally not allowed to work the job I have right now. What kind of crap is that? So I'm sitting here sucking down unemployment again, delaying my career progress and savings plans, and next week I have a meeting with the Ohio unemployment office to explain to them why I'm both employed and unemployed at the exact same time.

EDIT: Just sent a scathing email to senator Rob Portman noting that the Republican Party is responsible for my increase in the unemployment rate. It'll probably go unread.

Trump anounced that most people who are affected by the shutdown are supporting his effort to get the wall built. Somehow I am highly sceptical there is any truth in that.

 

[Dotini]

...very set in his ideas & completely unwilling to stop & reflect on other possibilities.

On the contrary, and even more worrying, is that his ideas are not set in stone, but in Jello; that he will act on impulse ignited by the persons who have most recently ensorcelled him. Right now, is he not surrounded by extremists from the Henry Jackson/neocon movement and apocalyptic evangelical Christians from military/intel services including the USAF? Shouldn't your paranoia meter be bouncing off the peg?

By the lights of his new friends, selective government shutdown is a great permanent goal.

Nine out of 15 federal departments are closed, as well as dozens of agencies. However, several funding bills were passed and signed, so about 75 percent of government services are unaffected by the shutdown.

More than 420,000 federal employees are working without pay, including agents from the FBI, ATF, DEA and CBP, as well as staff from the State Department, Coast Guard, IRS and Department of Homeland Security.

Another 380,000 workers have been furloughed from departments including NASA, the State Department, the National Park Service, the Forest Service, the Transportation Department, the Department of Housing and Urban Development and the IRS.

Immigration courts have also closed, forcing judges to indefinitely postpone hearings scheduled months in advance. There is already a backlog of over 800,000 cases.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/govern...ed-post-office-irs-national-parks-2019-01-05/

It would not surprise me that the Don will use this shutdown in order to free up other illiberal actions including declaring a national emergency and further seizure of unwarranted powers. At this point, he may have nothing to lose and everything to gain. At the very least, he will attempt to use this shutdown as an anvil upon which to pound his political opponents into submission.

 

[ryzno]

I don't even know where you're talking about...

Oh come on man...
I'm talking about the Canadian border...
/s
Let's just agree to disagree.

 

[Biggles]

On the contrary, and even more worrying, is that his ideas are not set in stone, but in Jello; that he will act on impulse ignited by the persons who have most recently ensorcelled him.

True. He is a person who is not given to deep thought about anything ... but does not believe that that disqualifies him from having "the best" thoughts about everything - a terrible combination. And those "thoughts" tend to based on "gut instinct" rather than knowledge. Thankfully, there is a "Deep State" in place to keep him from going completely off the rails.

 

[Keef]

Trump anounced that most people who are affected by the shutdown are supporting his effort to get the wall built. Somehow I am highly sceptical there is any truth in that.

He could announce that he pooped in his hand and ate it and his maniacal supporters would follow suit. Zero attention should be paid to the imbecile and he needs to be removed from the office immediately. He's turned our country into a complete international laughing stock.

Been spending too much time watching Designated Survivor lately and now I'm delusioned about what it might be like to have a president that isn't an orange child.

 

[Famine]

Oh come on man...
I'm talking about the Canadian border...
/s
Let's just agree to disagree.

Again, this isn't a comment that adds any value to the conversation. There's three questions here (which I've posted twice, not including the third time below) and you've just straight up ignored two of them:

Why is "We have reports of 5-10K+ at the border waiting to come in." (which border? Where on that border? Where do the reports come from?) acceptable, but you can sweep published figures showing a net annual drop of 200,000 over the last three years under the rug as if they're irrelevant?

The US-Mexico border is nearly 2,000 miles long, with nearly 50 official crossing points and doubtless hundreds more less legal ones. You've heard that 5-10 thousand people (in the reports you won't cite) are waiting to cross like cattle following their leader. Where on this border is this giant congregation of people?

 

[PocketZeven]

He could announce that he pooped in his hand and ate it and his maniacal supporters would follow suit. Zero attention should be paid to the imbecile and he needs to be removed from the office immediately. He's turned our country into a complete international laughing stock.

Been spending too much time watching Designated Survivor lately and now I'm delusioned about what it might be like to have a president that isn't an orange child.

You cant really ignore him, since he is the POTUS. I find it difficult to believe that Pence will be an improvement. Just ride it out and hopefully dems block all his crazy ideas untill 2020. He has been bulletproof, because of his fanatical following and in the meantime hope that no SCOTUS retires or dies.

 

[ryzno]

Again, this isn't a comment that adds any value to the conversation.

The US-Mexico border is nearly 2,000 miles long, with nearly 50 official crossing points and doubtless hundreds more less legal ones. You've heard that 5-10 thousand people (in the reports you won't cite) are waiting to cross like cattle following their leader. Where on this border is this giant congregation of people?

The cattle comment was my opinion, I can't give you a link for that.

I don't know what difference it'll make but here ya go.

10K
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/18/world/americas/mexico-tijuana-migrants-caravan.html

5-10K even though you have to read down a little bit
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2018/10/24/migrant-caravan-updates/