America - The Official Thread

[Famine]

I don't know what difference it'll make but here ya go.

10K
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/18/world/americas/mexico-tijuana-migrants-caravan.html

So Tijuana in November and the 10,000 figure is what "city officials fear" that the caravan and two behind it might contain in total. And that's not a complete guess because?

5-10K even though you have to read down a little bit
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2018/10/24/migrant-caravan-updates/

Paywall for Europeans, so I can't read any of the actual content, but the article is dated October...

Incidentally, 5-10k is a huge error margin. It's literally saying "it's somewhere between half of what we think and twice of what we think".

So again (I think this makes it six or seven times, which is still a more accurate guess than 5-10k), what makes these figures acceptable to you, but other actual estimates are not worth paying attention to? It can't just be because the 5-10k figure supports your opinion that you need a wall to slow down people coming in across the border and the -400k figure doesn't... surely?

 

[PocketZeven]

The cattle comment was my opinion, I can't give you a link for that.

I don't know what difference it'll make but here ya go.

10K
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/18/world/americas/mexico-tijuana-migrants-caravan.html

5-10K even though you have to read down a little bit
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2018/10/24/migrant-caravan-updates/

You are assuming the wrong things and I suggest to ask the right questions. Is illegal immigrations impact on the USA even a threat or not? The leftwing media likes to paint a picture that illegal immigration is a major threat to teh economy, crime and the lives of the average american. I have not seen any evidence to acknowledge it as a threat. Illegal immigration is illegal ofcourse and should be adequately battled, but it is nowhere a threat (not even close) to the USA the left are portraying it to be.

When you have time, do some objective research into it and look at statistics from reliable impartial sources and then explain again why illegal immigration warrants a 5.6 Billion steel slate wall?

Also the article does portray the central american immigrants as genuine refugees.

Edit: Glad you give some credibility to MSM NY Times and Washington Post.

 

[ryzno]

November/October

That was the last time I really paid any attention to the situation till now.

5-10k figure supports your opinion

No, I see/saw a common number. I didn't just pull that number out of thin air. I'm glad providing links wasn't enough for you. And. No one has posted a link arguing my numbers.

I have not seen any evidence to acknowledge it as a threat.

I don't think it's a threat. I look at it like a leak that slowly drips if you know what I mean.

 

[Famine]

No, I see a common number. No one has posted a link arguing my numbers.

What, so all it takes for a number to be true is repetition?

Again, the 10,000 figure was, according to the first link, a "fear" from "city officials" that the caravan and two others behind it might contain 10,000 people in total. That means they're guessing (they're on the US side of the border, not the Mexico one) at the figure in one caravan and then literally making up the contents of two further ones, then being scared by it. Are there even two further ones?

But this is acceptable to you, and research based on census data plus official deportation figures is "just an estimate". Is it coincidental that the figure you accept supports your notion that too many people are coming into the USA and the figure you don't accept shows that more people are going out of it?

I don't think it's a threat. I look at it like a leak that slowly drips if you know what I mean.

Except it's not slowly dripping. More illegals are leaving the USA than are entering it.

 

[ryzno]

But this is acceptable to you, and research based on census data plus official deportation figures is "just an estimate".

Considering they are blocking Trump from asking on the upcoming Census citizenship status. And it wasn't a question on the last census. You can't come up with any real number can you?
*I believe that as much as I believe the unemployment numbers, when people like my dad lose unemployment benefits and give up on finding a job the number conveniently adjusts. He'd like to work but it's kinda hard to get a chance when you are 66 and have been out of the work force for 4 years. What you ya know, fake stats in government, what a concept.*
I'll ask again, do you have a link that disputes my numbers?
And lets be honest, do you really think an illegal is going to answer the census when it comes in the mail over fear of being caught?

*=edit

 

[PocketZeven]

That was the last time I really paid any attention to the situation till now.
No, I see/saw a common number. I didn't just pull that number out of thin air. I'm glad providing links wasn't enough for you. And. No one has posted a link arguing my numbers.
I don't think it's a threat. I look at it like a leak that slowly drips if you know what I mean.

I understand but does it warrant a wall? Like @Famine stated, there are more illegals leaving then entering.

 

[Famine]

Considering they are blocking Trump from asking on the upcoming Census citizenship status. And it wasn't a question on the last census. You can't come up with any real number can you?
And lets be honest, do you really think an illegal is going to answer the census when it comes in the mail over fear of being caught?

What are you actually talking about now? Is this another one of your unfinished sentences, stretched out to an entire post?

 

[ryzno]

What are you actually talking about now? Is this another one of your unfinished sentences, stretched out to an entire post?

You brought up the census. And yes. I edited my post. Probably won't make any sense though. Considering I've been asked for links, provided them and somehow I'm still wrong. I give up...

 

[Famine]

You brought up the census.

Nope. How would the census, which happens every 10 years and last happened in 2010, show figures from 2017? I said "census data".

And yes. I edited my post. Probably won't make any sense though.

For some reason you're talking about government stats and unemployment in it, so it doesn't make much sense.

Considering I've been asked for links, provided them and somehow I'm still wrong. I give up...

I haven't said you're wrong. I've asked why you trust numbers that are literal guesses (from "city officials". Guess they're not government then...) and described as such in the source material, but then call research based on census data "just an estimate" - and it can't possibly be because the former supports your notion and the latter contradicts it.

 

[ryzno]

I said "census data".

And? Considering the numbers are from 9 years ago, they are as useful as my estimate. We have no idea on an actual number, do we?
You asked where I got the numbers from.
I gave you links.
You said I used them cause they supported my claim. Which I didn't. I used those numbers cause they are common in various sites.
For some reason you want me to question why I use those numbers, but you still haven't provided a link arguing my numbers.
You want to keep saying but there is a trend they are leaving, so what? If you can't provided a link that disputes my numbers, we're done as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Famine]

Considering the numbers are from 9 years ago,

They aren't. That would - again - be the US Census. That's not what "census data" means.

they are as useful as my estimate.

No. The fears of city officials of the contents of a trio of caravans that they cannot count at a single crossing point are in no way equivalent to multi-year research data across the entire country. I'd still love to know why you not only treat them like they are, but that the guess - and it is a guess - is actually better...

... and answering that would have you critically examining your opinion.

 

[ryzno]

I'd still love to know why you not only treat them like they are, but that the guess - and it is a guess - is actually better...

I honestly don't get what you mean.
I said I don't know how many are down there a few times. I'm going of numbers I read.
You still haven't provided a link that disputes my numbers...
So what are you try to argue?
Until you can provide a link that disputes my numbers I don't see the point in this back and forth.

 

[Dogwolf77]

All feelings aside; my country, the USA, is overpopulated, it can no longer sustain its current population on almost all levels, and it’s headed for a major fall if it can’t get this under control. It doesn’t matter where people are coming from or their skill sets. It doesn’t matter if everyone is rich and educated like Einstein, we cannot sustain the emense growth.
When I served in the Navy, the population was half the number of what it is today. When I was born, it was half that number. We were no where close to the population of China or India, we certainly are now! And we’re facing the same infrastructure, food shortage, drinking water quality and on and on, that those people left their home country for. It’s pretty bad when sewage treatment plants can’t handle the volume. Come to my house in one of the most affluent neighborhoods in the USA and smell a glass of water, it’s pretty gross. It’s like a dirty swimming pool. Top that with the job market, cost of living, food prices etc.
it’s no easy life. What bothers me is the misleading narrative that a poor person with no skills can come here and have any chance at happiness. They leave with their tails between their legs as more replace them.

The USA was, at one time, the land of milk and honey. Not anymore, and I sincerely doubt we can fix it now. We screwed up big time by being so hospitable. It came at a price, so that’s that.

People want to roll the dice and come here, fine, take your chances. I warn you, it’s dog eat dog, we’re all dripping with contempt for each other and it’s a jungle out there. So bring it on, find your corner and beg for enough to buy a sandwich. But get here quick, our population is forecast to double again in only 5 short years.

It’s not about race, it’s about sheer numbers.

 

[PocketZeven]

All feelings aside; my country, the USA, is overpopulated, it can no longer sustain its current population on almost all levels, and it’s headed for a major fall if it can’t get this under control. It doesn’t matter where people are coming from or their skill sets. It doesn’t matter if everyone is rich and educated like Einstein, we cannot sustain the emense growth.
When I served in the Navy, the population was half the number of what it is today. When I was born, it was half that number. We were no where close to the population of China or India, we certainly are now! And we’re facing the same infrastructure, food shortage, drinking water quality and on and on, that those people left their home country for. It’s pretty bad when sewage treatment plants can’t handle the volume. Come to my house in one of the most affluent neighborhoods in the USA and smell a glass of water, it’s pretty gross. It’s like a dirty swimming pool. Top that with the job market, cost of living, food prices etc.
it’s no easy life. What bothers me is the misleading narrative that a poor person with no skills can come here and have any chance at happiness. They leave with their tails between their legs as more replace them.

The USA was, at one time, the land of milk and honey. Not anymore, and I sincerely doubt we can fix it now. We screwed up big time by being so hospitable. It came at a price, so that’s that.

People want to roll the dice and come here, fine, take your chances. I warn you, it’s dog eat dog, we’re all dripping with contempt for each other and it’s a jungle out there. So bring it on, find your corner and beg for enough to buy a sandwich. But get here quick, our population is forecast to double again in only 5 short years.

It’s not about race, it’s about sheer numbers.

This is the most ignorant post I have seen this year yet. The USA ranks 191 in the world in population density out 254 ranked. I am from the Netherlands (rank 31) and I dont even complain. Please sir do your research before you start posting information that is inaccurate. Even Mexico (rank 159) ranks higher then the USA.

USA pop/m2: 87 people
Mexico pop/m2: 166 people
China: pop/m2: 375 people
the Netherlands pop/m2: 1078 people

And if you rank the 100 most populous countries (to exclude small countries, Islands and/or city states like HongKong, Macau,Monaco, Singapore etc.) in the world, the USA still ranks only 79, Mexico 63, China 27 and the netherlands 5.

I hope you can do math, but there is more then enough room in the USA to quadruple your entire population and still have less population density as China. To even come near the density in my country the USA needs to have 12X the current population!

edit: India has 1057 pop/m2 so you dont come close to both China or India!

edit: If you want more room you dont need to travel far. Canada has 8 pop/m2.

 

[Famine]

You still haven't provided a link that disputes my numbers...

Until you can provide a link that disputes my numbers I don't see the point in this back and forth.

That's because you're wildly missing it by ignoring quite a lot of it. The point is that you think the USA needs an actual physical wall on the southern border to "slow down" the influx of illegals, but that the reasoning you've used to get to that opinion seems to be based not on any critical analysis but on a feeling not supported by actual data.

The questions I've asked - the overwhelming bulk of which you've completely ignored - are an attempt to get you to actually think about what you're thinking, so that you can craft an opinion based on reasoning. Perhaps the data will show you're right and the USA needs an actual physical wall, perhaps it won't, but if you don't actually examine your thinking, your opinion is no better than a flat earther's opinion on orbital mechanics, or an anti-vaxxer's opinion on disease control. It's a belief.


The information of the last couple of pages is a prime example of this. You've heard somewhere that there's 5-10k illegals queuing up at the border, which means there's 5-10k illegals waiting to cross the border. To you, that's a fact.

When you learn that the number comes from "the fears of city officials", who, as they're on the wrong side of the border have no way of actually counting the caravan, you should be thinking "Hmm, hang on, that's not a safe number at all.". When you then learn that it's not just the "count" for that caravan, but two others behind it as well, you should be thinking "Wait, how are they adding up the numbers of two more caravans to the one they already can't count?". But you're not. It's a fact to you, and it doesn't matter that the number is entirely made up.

Meanwhile, an independent, non-partisan data research center has used census data (that's "census data", not "data from the US Census", which is a different thing) over the last thirty years to calculate the number of illegals in the USA, the annual change, the ethnicities, the duration of stay, the employment status and so on. That body has calculated that 50% of illegals are Mexican (down 7% in five years), 66% of which have been in the country for 10 years or more, 80% are in work, the rate of border crossing attempts has fallen 80% in 20 years and the total count of illegals has fallen 1.5m in ten years (300k of that in 2015-16 alone). And your opinion of that data is "Well, it's just an estimate, no-one has real numbers, the government just makes these things up like unemployment.".

You're treating the actually made-up data as not only equal to the research data, but superior to it. The question I've asked nine times now is why you would do that...


Whether there's actually 5,000 illegals waiting at one specific part of the border to cross it right now, or 10,000, or 20,000, or a million, is actually besides the point (except 10k spending two months trying to get in and failing, even without a wall, is dwarfed by the 400k annual deportations and returns). It's that you're willing to accept these numbers without any question at all despite their lack of basis in reality, while questioning real data based in reality across the entire border and indeed country. It's like you will only accept data to support your opinion that the USA needs an actual physical wall and wish away any data that does not. Which is exactly what flat earthers, anti-vaxxers, creationists and any other junk science proponents do. It's called confirmation bias - being biased to accept only data that you think confirms your opinion.

That's the opposite of critically examining your opinion. You should be thinking about how your opinion could be wrong, or at least challenged, rather than dismissing any notion that it could be. That's why I want you to show me the data that proves the USA needs a physical wall on the southern border...

... but you'd rather dodge questions and play to emotion. So rather than you being the one wasting your time, I am, because you're not willing to allow your opinion to be challenged even by yourself, and are thus incapable of providing me with the data that advances it.

And that's just sad - anyone should be able to do that because they should have done it to themselves before accepting it as their opinion.

 

[Dogwolf77]

This is the most ignorant post I have seen this year yet. The USA ranks 191 in the world in population density out 254 ranked. I am from the Netherlands (rank 31) and I dont even complain. Please sir do your research before you start posting information that is inaccurate. Even Mexico (rank 159) ranks higher then the USA.

USA pop/m2: 87 people
Mexico pop/m2: 166 people
China: pop/m2: 375 people
the Netherlands pop/m2: 1078 people

And if you rank the 100 most populous countries in the world, the USA still ranks only 79, Mexico 63, China 27 and the netherlands 5. I hope you can do math, but there is more then enough room in the USA to quadruple your entire population and still have less population density as China. To even come near the density in my country the USA needs to have 12
X the current population!

Hehe, no my friend,I’m not incorrect but apparently you have a different source. I’m not going to argue. Doesn’t make any difference what the population in some other region happens to be, besides, they’ll all be in America soon enough anyway. My whole point is that our population explosion is out of control. In 4 decades, a city goes from 400k to almost 3mil. That’s growth my friend.

 

[PocketZeven]

Hehe, no my friend,I’m not incorrect but apparently you have a different source. I’m not going to argue. Doesn’t make any difference what the population in some other region happens to be, besides, they’ll all be in America soon enough anyway. My whole point is that our population explosion is out of control. In 4 decades, a city goes from 400k to almost 3mil. That’s growth my friend.

Please explain which source you are using. My source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_population_density
Or are you using "alternative facts"?

Even in Growth the USA isnt substantially more then other countries (UN 2015-2020):USA rank 131 at 0.71%

Please disprove me otherwise! When a city expands that fast its national migration dear sir. That has nothing to do with immigration from foreign countries.


edit: please dont exclusively use rightwing media, Facebook, Fox or Trump as your primary source for facts. Immigration is not a big problem in the USA period.

edit2: So which explosion are you talking about???

edit3: Population growth by natural increase USA 4.3 per 1000 people. (2015-2020)

 

[Joey D]

And yet, the US still has massive tracts of land with little to no population. To say the US is densely packed or is running out of room is kind of funny. All one needs to do is drive around in the Western part of the country to see that there's virtually nothing around.

 

[ryzno]

You're treating the actually made-up data as not only equal to the research data, but superior to it. The question I've asked nine times now is why you would do that...

I don't think they are superior.
From personal experience I know government numbers are a lie.
If you can provide a link that disputes my numbers I'll consider changing my opinion.

 

[PocketZeven]

I don't think they are superior.
From personal experience I know government numbers are a lie.
If you can provide a link that disputes my numbers I'll consider changing my opinion.

Dude dont assume they are all a lie. Use other sources to corroborate certain data. Dont cherrypick when choosing trustworthy data. Try to look for a trusted sources. You basically said you trust some random website, but dont trust data that actually has been researched. In these days of the internet there is a lot of "fake news"out there. But dont assume the government is a part of that.

I hope you dont believe the Earth is flat?

 

[Famine]

I don't think they are superior.

Read the rest of your own post, where you reject one set as a lie and accept the other, even demanding proof that they're wrong.

From personal experience I know government numbers are a lie.

They're not government numbers.

If you can provide a link that disputes my numbers I'll consider changing my opinion.

There are four reasons, already stated in the previous post, why I have no need, desire or reason to do that.

The fact you'd post that in all seriousness is a demonstration of the issue I discussed. I will note that you've accepted them so unquestioningly that you refer to them now as "my numbers"

 

[ryzno]

I hope you dont believe the Earth is flat?

I don't.

 

[TexRex]

I hope you dont believe the Earth is flat?

I don't think that's necessary. It's one thing to question figures presented by a source and quite another to reject something that's easily observed.

 

[mustafur]

Glad you give some credibility to MSM NY Times and Washington Post.

Why?

 

[TexRex]

My girls brother doesn't get back here every year on a plane or boat. I'm not going to say where but the families home town in Mexico is right at the border with an American town. He waltzs right on over and his dad is waiting at a hotel down there to drive him back.

Why have you not reported them? You're aware that you're an accessory to the crime, right?

Wouldn't be the first time and I don't snitch on family even though I wouldn't mind if they kept him down there. I don't like him, unlike her other brother.

Well that's just baffling.

Setting aside the efficacy of a border wall and whether illegal immigration is as bad as some claim it is for a moment, are you saying that you want taxpayer money to be spent to combat something that you can't be arsed to address yourself, despite being in prime position to do so?

I mean...I actually kind of understand not wanting to turn someone in for committing a criminal act when a) they're a friend or loved one and/or b) you don't think the criminal act should be prosecuted regardless of the perpetrator.

But you mean to say that you don't even like the individual perpetrating the act that you think a specific [costly] effort should be made to prevent, presumably in addition to offenders being prosecuted?

 

[ryzno]

NM

 

[Dogwolf77]

And yet, the US still has massive tracts of land with little to no population. To say the US is densely packed or is running out of room is kind of funny. All one needs to do is drive around in the Western part of the country to see that there's virtually nothing around.

You are quite right,our wild western frontier is a massive area, very dry, and largely uninhabited. The land is owned (per manifest destiny), and is not a place for man or beast to set up camp. No sir, I’m only speaking to the metro and urban areas where there are basic services like water and electricity.

I know you have me beat here, no doubt there’s space but would you move your family to the center of nowhere? No, I think not. You’ll settle in a city like Paris, London, Chicago, San Francisco, Prague...not the mountains or desert plains.

Can we agree on that?

I think it’s great to have these various opinions. Good or bad. I love this group and believe we are unique unto ourselves in that racing brings us together. It unites us under one flag so to speak. We are smart and very strategic people. We see things differently than most. Gtplanet is our sounding board.
The world is flat as long as we all stay connected and engaged with each other.

You guys are awesome!

 

[Northstar]

would you move your family to the center of nowhere? No, I think not. You’ll settle in a city like Paris, London, Chicago, San Francisco, Prague...not the mountains or desert plains.

He moved from Michigan to Utah, so he kind of did exactly that!

 

[Dogwolf77]

He moved from Michigan to Utah, so he kind of did exactly that!

Oh man....hehe, I can’t win. Nope you guys got me in a corner here so I give.

 

[TexRex]

I know you have me beat here, no doubt there’s space but would you move your family to the center of nowhere? No, I think not. You’ll settle in a city like Paris, London, Chicago, San Francisco, Prague...not the mountains or desert plains.

At what point was the know-how necessary to create infrastructure capable of supporting civilization lost?