America - The Official Thread

[TenEightyOne]

It's a bit funny to continue seeing you, an European member, have so much hostility about Trump and immigration control, wondering what the big deal is about immigration here. How upset are you that your own region is already doing the same? Even using the same words you constantly have issue with?

That's a strange reply a comment about Trump's government shutdown. Are you aware of the ethnic cleansing that took place in part of the region you're talking about? The history of fencing and religious division goes way back. Still, by looking back we see forward more clearly... world leaders should take notes. The comment about religion should be a red flag there.

 

[TexRex]

Hey, yeah! Instead of addressing others' comments on the topic at hand, we should bring up a topic on which they're not commenting and question their apparent decision to not comment on it.

 

[UKMikey]

Hey, yeah! Instead of addressing others' comments on the topic at hand, we should bring up a topic on which they're not commenting and question their apparent decision to not comment on it.

 

[ryzno]

NM, my post deletion says enough.

 

[samurai8juice]

Perhaps you can elaborate?

First off, his appearance. I know, it's a terrible point, but there are people out there that vote solely based off of appearance and "presidentialness", I'm not one of those people, but appearance definitely weighs in. He just appears...untrustworthy and slimy.

Secondly, he looks like your typical "establishment" politician, especially with all his wealth and his political and banking connections. And running one wealthy person against another way more wealthy person is a recipe for disaster in my opinion. True Democrats would find it hard to vote for Bloomberg, but because he's facing Trump, they'll likely make an exception.

Thirdly, he's the 11th richest person in the world (according to Forbes). No way do I want that.

And I just don't like the sorts of political stuff that Bloomberg (the media/magazine) puts out. And that's probably the same way Bloomberg himself leans. It's this weird sort of hardly right of center economically but far left socially. Not quite libertarian, but yet far worse (in my opinion).

And I don't think he would be good for the Democratic party, especially at this moment in time.

---

Of all issues to plant the flag on, it's planted firmly on border security? I don't understand that. Alright, we "build that wall!". Well, wait a second, don't we already have border security and patrols, and various types of fences and walls already in place all along the Mexican border? Hm. So what's the issue with improving it in a few sections that are in piss-poor condition, increasing the number of adequately trained border patrol agents, and maybe even renovating some of the immigration and border facilities along the border, if they need it (if that's even proposed)? If anything, it sounds like a good thing, not this villainized thing it's made out to be. And, I don't see the issue with another $5 billion in funding considering that that's only going to cause a marginal increase of our whopping $1 trillion estimated budget deficit this year.

 

[Scaff]

It's a bit funny to continue seeing you, an European member, have so much hostility about Trump and immigration control, wondering what the big deal is about immigration here. How upset are you that your own region is already doing the same? Even using the same words you constantly have issue with?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...trump-europe-border-walls-migrants/532572002/





Ah, Europe can keep immigrants seeking refuge out because they're Islamic. But, the US can't keep out South Americans because they're Catholic. Hmm, I wonder what awful assumption is behind that statement...

Well that's a whole heap of assumption.

 

[McLaren]

Well that's a whole heap of assumption.

There's no assumption. I want to see if he's consistent in his thoughts & beliefs over an issue he continuously has quarrel with Trump over. And only because he's been shown to give Trump hell over, yet argue when shown another person committing similar atrocities.

 

[TenEightyOne]

And only because he's been shown to give Trump hell over, yet argue when shown another person committing similar atrocities.

Are you suggesting that there's going to be genocide at the Southern US border (again)? I'd urge you to look at the recent history of places like Croatia, I really would. Go a little further back to the Soviet Union and the vassal states, you'll find plenty of areas rent by political, ideological and religious dogma.

 

[Scaff]

There's no assumption. I want to see if he's consistent in his thoughts & beliefs over an issue he continuously has quarrel with Trump over. And only because he's been shown to give Trump hell over, yet argue when shown another person committing similar atrocities.

I've never seen him argue that at all and would find it far more likely that those that object to one, object to the other.

 

[PocketZeven]

It's a bit funny to continue seeing you, an European member, have so much hostility about Trump and immigration control, wondering what the big deal is about immigration here. How upset are you that your own region is already doing the same? Even using the same words you constantly have issue with?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...trump-europe-border-walls-migrants/532572002/





Ah, Europe can keep immigrants seeking refuge out because they're Islamic. But, the US can't keep out South Americans because they're Catholic. Hmm, I wonder what awful assumption is behind that statement...

There's no assumption. I want to see if he's consistent in his thoughts & beliefs over an issue he continuously has quarrel with Trump over. And only because he's been shown to give Trump hell over, yet argue when shown another person committing similar atrocities.

What’s funny is you using a whataboutism to defend trump.

I am speaking of the immorality of trumps lying about the facts about illegal immigration. And beside that I acknowledge that Europe actually does have an immigration problem which is far larger then the us, because of the influx of refugees. And for the record quoting from Hungary of all places, doesn’t really represent all of Europe does it? There has been a struggle between far right and leftists/centrists politics throughout Europe because of the migrant crisis with brexit as one of the results and countries like Poland electing a rightwing populist and others gaining a lot of voters in other countries. I am just so glad we live in a multipartysystem. But that is not a discussion for this thread.

I have never claimed I am criticizing a strict immigration policy. But I am against a person who calls illegal immigrants rapists, criminals, murderers and promising a wall that Mexico would pay for.

Edit added comment

 

[Dotini]

Of all issues to plant the flag on, it's planted firmly on border security? I don't understand that. Alright, we "build that wall!". Well, wait a second, don't we already have border security and patrols, and various types of fences and walls already in place all along the Mexican border? Hm. So what's the issue with improving it in a few sections that are in piss-poor condition, increasing the number of adequately trained border patrol agents, and maybe even renovating some of the immigration and border facilities along the border, if they need it (if that's even proposed)? If anything, it sounds like a good thing, not this villainized thing it's made out to be. And, I don't see the issue with another $5 billion in funding considering that that's only going to cause a marginal increase of our whopping $1 trillion estimated budget deficit this year.

The government budgetary shutdown is now the 3rd longest in history with no end in sight. The Don's cynical use of The Wall tweet and other Game of Thrones memes has caused stern reaction at HBO. Always the showman.

Trump in front of the meme poster. Photo: Evan Vucci/AP

^That's not Tywin Lannister over the Don's left shoulder, that's John Bolton.

 

[Liquid]

The government budgetary shutdown is now the 3rd longest in history with no end in sight. The Don's cynical use of The Wall tweet and other Game of Thrones memes has caused stern reaction at HBO. Always the showman.

Yeah but...



That's a fence.

And Mexico still aren't paying for it. Instead the wall will "pay for itself" once the US taxpayer has footed the $5 billion generously low estimated cost.

 

[PocketZeven]

Even Fox News know the trump administration is lying about the supposed danger that Islamic terrorists are using the southern border to enter the USA. Sarah Sanders caught lying at 6:15.

 

[Dotini]

That's a fence.

Yes, and Trump is manipulating imagery and words in a great battle over the border, immigration and the budget. Unemployment is the lowest since the 60's, the real economy is booming, so the time is most favorable for a long break from government services, currently laying on the floor bleeding from the ears. I predict an eventual budgetary agreement on a comprehensive border security plan which involves selective effective barriers as at San Diego.

 

[PocketZeven]

Yes, and Trump is manipulating imagery and words in a great battle over the border, immigration and the budget. Unemployment is the lowest since the 60's, the real economy is booming, so the time is most favorable for a long break from government services, currently laying on the floor bleeding from the ears. I predict an eventual budgetary agreement on a comprehensive border security plan which involves selective effective barriers as at San Diego.

Congress and the senate already agreed on a proposition to strengthen current measures. Trump chose to opt for a shutdown to demand 5.6 billion for a much larger border "wall".

 

[ryzno]

Hey, yeah! Instead of addressing others' comments on the topic at hand, we should bring up a topic on which they're not commenting and question their apparent decision to not comment on it.

I honestly don't like the fact I have to answer 20 questions cause someone said so, I can't get 1 answered. And I answered a few. I'm not going to answer another one till my 1 question gets answered or he admits he can't find any numbers that dispute the ones ones I posted. He asked for links of how I gathered my numbers and it spiraled into 20 questions that don't have a dang thing to do with my original post.
Y'all know I don't like that and it doesn't have anything to do with critical thinking if he can't provide numbers that dispute mine so I can think about THEM. I'll say it again, as I wait for this to be deleted for no reason like my last post, a trend of immigrants leaving has nothing to do with how many are on the other side of the border waiting to get in. Then on top of all that, he dismisses my links cause they are from Oct/Nov but he wants to use 9 year old census data. Hit me up next year when numbers get updated.
Then y'all jumped on my arse cause I scoffed at his numbers yet stand by mine. I pointed out how numbers can be sckewed and commented on how old his are. If this post doesn't explain why, I don't what to say to make y'all happy.

 

[PocketZeven]

I honestly don't like the fact I have to answer 20 questions cause someone said so, I can't get 1 answered. And I answered a few. I'm not going to answer another one till my 1 question gets answered or he admits he can't find any numbers that dispute the ones ones I posted. He asked for links of how I gathered my numbers and it spiraled into 20 questions that don't have a dang thing to do with my original post.
Y'all know I don't like that and it doesn't have anything to do with critical thinking if he can't provide numbers that dispute mine so I can think about THEM. I'll say it again, as I wait for this to be deleted for no reason like my last post, a trend of immigrants leaving has nothing to do with how many are on the other side of the border waiting to get in.

In another effort to divert the discussion from the back and forth over some numbers. The accurate numbers are irrelevant if said is true. More illegals going out, then going in=less illegal immigrants. The numbers you guys are discussing over are peanuts compared to the big picture.

What is more relevant is what is your personal issue with illegal immigration? How does it effect you in your daily life. And are you certain illegal immigration is the cause or do you think it is because the conservative media and trump says it is so?

 

[Joey D]

the real economy is booming

Is it though? The auto industry is slowing down, laying people off, and having a hard time selling vehicles. The tech industry is getting beat up due to illegal tariffs since most of its manufacturing is done in China. Even agriculture is suffering because of the illegal tariffs since it can't export goods like it's used to (but never mind because Trump will just bail them out so they'll vote for him). The stock market is also all over the place.

Trump has a communist approach to the economy, which isn't sustainable at all.

 

[PocketZeven]

Is it though? The auto industry is slowing down, laying people off, and having a hard time selling vehicles. The tech industry is getting beat up due to illegal tariffs since most of its manufacturing is done in China. Even agriculture is suffering because of the illegal tariffs since it can't export goods like it's used to (but never mind because Trump will just bail them out so they'll vote for him). The stock market is also all over the place.

Trump has a communist approach to the economy, which isn't sustainable at all.

Trump is far away from a communist approach. Communism is more a planned economy based on common ownership and a classles society. I don’t see the resemblance. It has more similarities with nationalistic Germany from days past.

 

[ryzno]

What is more relevant is what is your personal issue with illegal immigration?

Illegal is the key word and I had an issue with it well before Trump.

 

[PocketZeven]

Illegal is the key word and I had an issue with it well before Trump.

It is a misdemeanor though. In my opinion mass shootings, education, healthcare, antiterrorism should be a much higher priority. Except from being a misdemeanor offense what negative impact do illegal immigrants have on your and your surroundings life?

Trump is using the excuse that the southern border is a port of entry for terrorists to justify the shutdown. This is already been debunked and is just a big fat lie. And as others pointed out the amount of illegal immigrants is already declining, meaning that existing measures are already effective. Forgoing funding to strengthen existing fences and implement technology to fund a wall essentially has primarily the purpose of satisfying Trumps Ego.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...rder_maybe_theyll_call_it_the_trump_wall.html

 

[huskeR32]

From personal experience I do think the unemployment numbers are a lie.

The unemployment number measures what it measures. That large swaths of the public can't be bothered to learn what it measures doesn't make it a lie.

Further, even if the unemployment rate was a simplistic as your railing against it assumes, anecdotal evidence that your dad can't get a job wouldn't in any way refute it.

All of which is to say that perhaps you should have a better reason for discounting information than "government numbers are a lie."

Lastly, the source of your cattle count is:

City officials, who fear that as many as 10,000 migrants from this caravan and two more behind it may ultimately alight in Tijuana in the coming weeks, are scrambling to provide for them.

I cannot believe this needs to be pointed out, but "city officials" would be referring to members of the government. Care to explain why some government numbers can be trusted, after all?

---

I'm not going to answer another one till my 1 question gets answered or he admits he can't find any numbers that dispute the ones ones I posted.

He quite clearly was not trying to dispute your numbers at all. He was asking why you trusted one number over another. It doesn't make sense to ask him to have a source for his own curiosity about your glaringly obvious unequal application of skepticism and critical thought.

He asked for links of how I gathered my numbers and it spiraled into 20 questions that don't have a dang thing to do with my original post.

Nope. It didn't spiral into any additional questions. He repeated the same questions several times, and you steadfastly refused to answer them. That 20 (or however many) questions were answered is not indicative of anything other than the inefficiency of trying to get you to substantiate your claims.

I'll say it again, as I wait for this to be deleted for no reason like my last post, a trend of immigrants leaving has nothing to do with how many are on the other side of the border waiting to get in.

And I'll say it again that Famine isn't saying that those two things have anything to do with each other, either. What he is trying to get you to expand upon is your reasons for trusting one number and tossing out another.

Then on top of all that, he dismisses my links cause they are from Oct/Nov...

I'd imagine that he discounted your links from October and November because that was long enough ago that those predicted tens of thousands of caravan migrants, if they really existed, should be here by now, or at the very least should be the subject of ongoing reporting, meaning you should be able to provide links from the last few days, rather than four months ago. They haven't arrived, and you don't have newer articles. What does that tell you?

...but he wants to use 9 year old census data.

As he already told you, the decennial census is not the same thing as "census data." The U.S. Census Bureau publishes updated information all the time, using a number of different sources, data points, and formulas, to maintain a current estimate of the population. The data that Famine is quoting isn't nine years old; it's this year old, it's this month old, it's today old.

As with the unemployment number above - that you can't be bothered to understand what census data is and how it's arrived at doesn't make it nonsense.

 

[Biggles]

Is it though? The auto industry is slowing down, laying people off, and having a hard time selling vehicles. The tech industry is getting beat up due to illegal tariffs since most of its manufacturing is done in China. Even agriculture is suffering because of the illegal tariffs since it can't export goods like it's used to (but never mind because Trump will just bail them out so they'll vote for him). The stock market is also all over the place.

Trump has a communist approach to the economy, which isn't sustainable at all.

There was a big bump to the economy (which was already expanding) & the stock market due to the huge tax cuts ... but that stimulus has worn off & now the market is skittish & the deficit has ballooned. I don't know about "communist", it's more like good ol' timey crony, capitalist protectionism.

 

[Joey D]

There was a big bump to the economy (which was already expanding) & the stock market due to the huge tax cuts ... but that stimulus has worn off & now the market is skittish & the deficit has ballooned. I don't know about "communist", it's more like good ol' timey crony, capitalist protectionism.

Trump is essentially attempting to establish a form of state capitalism, which is part of certain interpretations of Communist, particularly the Soviet-era or Chinese kind. Trump wants to control the economic output of the US and is closing off the free market, which is pretty far from true capitalist ideals.

 

[ryzno]

The unemployment number measures what it measures. That large swaths of the public can't be bothered to learn what it measures doesn't make it a lie.

Further, even if the unemployment rate was a simplistic as your railing against it assumes, anecdotal evidence that your dad can't get a job wouldn't in any way refute it.

All of which is to say that perhaps you should have a better reason for discounting information than "government numbers are a lie."

Lastly, the source of your cattle count is:



I cannot believe this needs to be pointed out, but "city officials" would be referring to members of the government. Care to explain why some government numbers can be trusted, after all?

---



He quite clearly was not trying to dispute your numbers at all. He was asking why you trusted one number over another. It doesn't make sense to ask him to have a source for his own curiosity about your glaringly obvious unequal application of skepticism and critical thought.



Nope. It didn't spiral into any additional questions. He repeated the same questions several times, and you steadfastly refused to answer them. That 20 (or however many) questions were answered is not indicative of anything other than the inefficiency of trying to get you to substantiate your claims.



And I'll say it again that Famine isn't saying that those two things have anything to do with each other, either. What he is trying to get you to expand upon is your reasons for trusting one number and tossing out another.



I'd imagine that he discounted your links from October and November because that was long enough ago that those predicted tens of thousands of caravan migrants, if they really existed, should be here by now, or at the very least should be the subject of ongoing reporting, meaning you should be able to provide links from the last few days, rather than four months ago. They haven't arrived, and you don't have newer articles. What does that tell you?



As he already told you, the decennial census is not the same thing as "census data." The U.S. Census Bureau publishes updated information all the time, using a number of different sources, data points, and formulas, to maintain a current estimate of the population. The data that Famine is quoting isn't nine years old; it's this year old, it's this month old, it's today old.

As with the unemployment number above - that you can't be bothered to understand what census data is and how it's arrived at doesn't make it nonsense.

I can't take back I dismissed his numbers. That said, I'm glad to see a downtrend. I'll be happy when it's 0.*

*Which I know will never happen.

 

[PocketZeven]

The unemployment number measures what it measures. That large swaths of the public can't be bothered to learn what it measures doesn't make it a lie.

Further, even if the unemployment rate was a simplistic as your railing against it assumes, anecdotal evidence that your dad can't get a job wouldn't in any way refute it.

All of which is to say that perhaps you should have a better reason for discounting information than "government numbers are a lie."

Lastly, the source of your cattle count is:



I cannot believe this needs to be pointed out, but "city officials" would be referring to members of the government. Care to explain why some government numbers can be trusted, after all?

---



He quite clearly was not trying to dispute your numbers at all. He was asking why you trusted one number over another. It doesn't make sense to ask him to have a source for his own curiosity about your glaringly obvious unequal application of skepticism and critical thought.



Nope. It didn't spiral into any additional questions. He repeated the same questions several times, and you steadfastly refused to answer them. That 20 (or however many) questions were answered is not indicative of anything other than the inefficiency of trying to get you to substantiate your claims.



And I'll say it again that Famine isn't saying that those two things have anything to do with each other, either. What he is trying to get you to expand upon is your reasons for trusting one number and tossing out another.



I'd imagine that he discounted your links from October and November because that was long enough ago that those predicted tens of thousands of caravan migrants, if they really existed, should be here by now, or at the very least should be the subject of ongoing reporting, meaning you should be able to provide links from the last few days, rather than four months ago. They haven't arrived, and you don't have newer articles. What does that tell you?



As he already told you, the decennial census is not the same thing as "census data." The U.S. Census Bureau publishes updated information all the time, using a number of different sources, data points, and formulas, to maintain a current estimate of the population. The data that Famine is quoting isn't nine years old; it's this year old, it's this month old, it's today old.

As with the unemployment number above - that you can't be bothered to understand what census data is and how it's arrived at doesn't make it nonsense.

To his defense his assumption is that what Rightwing media and also Trump have been advocating as truth. And MSM being biased towards the left. If I was a staunch Republican and voted for Trump I presumably would also give Trump some benefit of the doubt, because of the aggressive nature the Media has been towards Trump. However somewhat objectively (objective in the sense that I am not american) the amount of lies he spreads, should trigger some of his following that this guy is full of BS if the righwing media would properly cover his presidency. Rightwing media however choose to concentrate on his supposed "succeses" even covering the campaign "promised made, promises kept". Which painfully is a big lie.

This is the result of the ongoing "fake news" battle by Trump against the media. I sincerely hope that the next POTUS will stay away from Twitter and re-establish the media on all sides as essential for a proper democracy.

Trump is essentially attempting to establish a form of state capitalism, which is part of certain interpretations of Communist, particularly the Soviet-era or Chinese kind. Trump wants to control the economic output of the US and is closing off the free market, which is pretty far from true capitalist ideals.

You probably mean Trump wants to become an Oligarchie? You do know Russia has not been a true communist country for a long time.

 

[huskeR32]

I can't take back I dismissed his numbers. That said, I'm glad to see a downtrend. I'll be happy when it's 0.*

*Which I know will never happen.

That's the only part you're going to respond to? This is why people ask you the same questions twenty times.

 

[ryzno]

That's the only part you're going to respond to? This is why people ask you the same questions twenty times.

What else is there to say?
I was stupid for saying that.

 

[Biggles]

Trump is essentially attempting to establish a form of state capitalism, which is part of certain interpretations of Communist, particularly the Soviet-era or Chinese kind. Trump wants to control the economic output of the US and is closing off the free market, which is pretty far from true capitalist ideals.

You can't call everything "communist" that isn't completely "free market". There's never really been a truly free market, only degrees of free enterprise. Corruption, nepotism, cronyism - they've been endemic throughout history, including the history of the US.

I don't think what Trump is doing really qualifies as state capitalism. It IS "picking winners & losers" though & it's based on some peculiar political considerations that are based on Trumps' "gut instincts". BAD!

 

[McLaren]

I've never seen him argue that at all and would find it far more likely that those that object to one, object to the other.

-Is upset with Trump's dishonest tweets, yet calls Robert Reich "quite credible" who is the left version of Sean Hannity & Rush Limbaugh.
-Claims whataboutism/whatever to others, yet does it himself with Trump.

Not sure what's more worrying, the people that blindly follow Trump, or the ones who despise him so much it clouds their view so much they ignore everything else. The sooner a majority of people recognize both parties are horrible and need to go the better.

Sorry but did you see the video? It wasnt only about "normal" lying. Its the obvious and easily debunkable lies that is strategic and lets him control a narrative. I am not sure which politician uses the same tactic. Most lies are out of stupidity, ignorance or both.

"If you like your health care plan, you can keep it"

Again, Trump is horrible, but the people blinded with hate for him are just as bad.

-Gets into a debate with Famine over Presidential role models b/c Famine thinks Trump & Clinton are both bad role models full stop, yet Pocket takes that as Famine thinking they're the same and gets in a debate about why it matters that 1 is worse than the other. Ends with calling Famine the worst administrator....

This is all in November, within' the span of 3 days.

What’s funny is you using a whataboutism to defend trump.

Stop. I've already just said a couple days ago in this thread what I think about the wall.

The wall is nothing more than a flex if the former Deporter in Chief was basically kicking them all back out without one.

I am speaking of the immorality of trumps lying about the facts about illegal immigration. And beside that I acknowledge that Europe actually does have an immigration problem which is far larger then the us, because of the influx of refugees.

So that doesn't justify these statements?

Orban referred to refugees as "Muslim invaders" and vowed during the election campaign to protect Hungary from the "rust" of Muslim immigration.

Whereas our walls are keeping out immigrants who are mostly Islamic. There is a big difference.

And for the record quoting from Hungary of all places, doesn’t really represent all of Europe does it?

The other comment is from a Slovenian.

You paint the entire right for what Trump says, yet now you acknowledge 1 man doesn't speak for everyone?

I have never claimed I am criticizing a strict immigration policy. But I am against a person who calls illegal immigrants rapists, criminals, murderers and promising a wall that Mexico would pay for.

Does the border fencing along the EU upset you as much as Trump's wall? Does the terminology used to justify that wall upset you like Trump's?

Authorities claim Europe's anti-immigration barriers accomplish what they set out to do: Keep people away.

I want to know if your morals are consistent or if this is another case where Trump bad, someone else gets a pass with you.