America - The Official Thread
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- Rallywgn81
Oh. So not out of thin air at all. Gotcha.
Danoff
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Oh it is. Do tell what you think it comes from though.
Joey D
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If Trump, Pelosi, and Schumer's addresses showed me anything last night, it's that's our leaders are some goofy looking people. Trump looks like an orange blob, Pelosi looks in a perpetual state of surprise, and Schumer looks like a skinny Grandpa Munster.
It also shows that our leaders are capable of babbling about something without really even saying anything. It reminds me of that Billy Madison clip where the principal says "we're all dumber for having listened to that".
At least with the government shut down, it decreases the likelihood it'll do anything asinine. Also, since my work shares the parking garage with the federal building in downtown SLC, it makes parking way easier in the morning, so there's that.
It also shows that our leaders are capable of babbling about something without really even saying anything. It reminds me of that Billy Madison clip where the principal says "we're all dumber for having listened to that".
At least with the government shut down, it decreases the likelihood it'll do anything asinine. Also, since my work shares the parking garage with the federal building in downtown SLC, it makes parking way easier in the morning, so there's that.
Tired Tyres
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Check out @Martina’s Tweet:
Danoff
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That's a tough one to deconstruct. She's not talking about soviet propaganda within the soviet union, which was absolutely unquestionably orders of magnitude worse. She's talking specifically about Soviet propaganda in Czechoslovakia. That's tougher to nail down. Still probably hyperbole by a long shot I'd imagine.
Edit:
Yup
https://www.private-prague-guide.com/article/life-during-the-communist-era-in-czechoslovakia/
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Joey D
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Danoff
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I see... so labor is not "thin air". So when I say you created a dollar (meaning a dollar of value, not an actual physical bill), out of thin air, you think it's not a fair characterization of someone who just works for a while and generates value.
In my example, there were already customers, coconuts, and coconut sales. Player 2 enters the game and works for a while, and now there's double the value. In my eyes that's creating value from nothing by working (and in the eyes of economics).
Are we in somewhat violent agreement?
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I sure dont see it as thin air. Again, if the employee just sat there, doing their own thing, and somehow that adds value to the product, sure, I suppose. But no, I dont find it as a fair comparison, I do find it as a mischaracterization. Time and labor costs someone time labor they could have used to their own pursuits rather than toil for a buck from and for someone else. It may not be a physical, touchable quantity, but it's not nothing either.
Danoff
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I don't think the fact that labor is occurring was ever in question in any of my examples. So I don't see how you could have been confused - thinking that I meant that someone could do nothing and receive dollars out of the air. If you thought that was my meaning, you should have re-evaluated why you thought that immediately because it is nonsensical and it would imply that I'm insane.
There is nothing about my hypothetical that requires that the second person be working for money from or for someone else. The hypothetical can easily be reconstructed such that the second person is laboring to produce a product that didn't previously exist and trading it on their own, without teaming up.
My "out of thin air" comment is meant to drive home the point that the money (specifically the value of the money) doesn't come from someone else. It's not a redistributive exercise. You're not simply moving value from one person to another, value is being created where it did not previously exist, and the only thing that is creating it is labor. In other words you can create value out of thin air by working.
Make sense now?
Tired Tyres
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Danoff
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No... I'm saying that what's being said about Trump is exaggerated...
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I see what you are getting at, but I don't subscribe. The fact that you are working (laboring) is what is adding the value, thus it's not out of thin air. Even in the case of the coconut example, without the labor of the second employee, there would have been a cap to how much just the proprietor alone could do in a given time allotment, thus a cap on the value. The second employee, by virtue of their labor, raises the ceiling on the value to be earned or added or whatever adjectiveyou wish. That value comes at a cost to the employee, thus it is not out of thin air.
Appreciation over time, that I could see as value added out of thin air. No one did anything, and no resources were consumed. Value was added from nothing.
Appreciation over time, that I could see as value added out of thin air. No one did anything, and no resources were consumed. Value was added from nothing.
Danoff
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Kinda depends on what's appreciating. If it's loaned money that's getting a return, that's definitely not value added from nothing. It enables someone else to work to create value from nothing (or, perhaps more accurately, it enables someone else to work to create value from the loaned money).
And this is the point that I made (a little too subtly I guess) above, which is that if you just rephrase to say that the person is working to produce value from nothing, it addresses your concern that labor is something.
You're taking me to task over my use of language by pointing out that I didn't emphasize enough that labor was used to perform that value creation. I don't think it was necessary, because I don't think it was reasonable to conclude that I meant someone could not work and create value from no resources. That was a completely unreasonable interpretation on your part. At this point though, now that everything is crystal clear, we have no real disagreement.
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Danoff
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...from no pre-existing value (and no, labor doesn't count). That should be remarkably clear at this point.
Value has no limit. The value of money has no limit. Physical bills can be limited.
Please explain where my argument is circular or do me the favor of retracting this.
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If labor didn't count, it would not be added into the value of a good.
Value has a set of limits. Resource quantity, economic strength, determinations from central banks, max production capacity. All of the variables that control the value of the dollar.
The circular argument is in the fact that you assertion that value can be made out of thin air. I argue every bit of value can be measured, be it resources use, or labor spent, we keep circling around those two notions, thus the circular argument.
So, as the saying goes, agree to disagree.
Value has a set of limits. Resource quantity, economic strength, determinations from central banks, max production capacity. All of the variables that control the value of the dollar.
The circular argument is in the fact that you assertion that value can be made out of thin air. I argue every bit of value can be measured, be it resources use, or labor spent, we keep circling around those two notions, thus the circular argument.
So, as the saying goes, agree to disagree.
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Danoff
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Labor does not have a set value on its own. Labor can result in something that has value, but it doesn't have value inherently. For example, you can labor to dig a ditch and fill it up. You've created no value, but you have expended labor.
Limited resources are not inherent to the creation of value.
I'm not even sure what you mean by this.
Central banks do not determine value.
Of... central banks? No probably you mean a single company's production capacity. Companies can find ways to produce more, I believe it was you who were referencing automation earlier. But also, additional companies can be created by additional people producing additional value. Also, each individual employee can find ways of generating more value - this is generally what happens when you get a raise or promotion.
Yes, if you introduce more dollars, you affect the value of a dollar. You can limit the value of the dollar by producing dollars to keep up with increases in market wealth. But the introduction of more dollars does not destroy market wealth, it redistributes it. It is not a limit on value or wealth of money (all of the money), it is a limit on the value or wealth represented by one bill.
Revisiting for the purpose of achieving a better understanding is not a circular argument. A circular argument is one which presumes its conclusions.
Not exactly. That fractional "ownership" comes with a bunch of very specific strings attached. It's a very different dynamic than his home.
Novalee
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Proudboy arrested in wash st for killing someone he thought was a non human
http://huffp.st/R1rhMzK
A member of the Proud Boys street gang was charged Tuesday with second-degree murder in Seattle, accused of killing his brother with a sword.
I dont recall any antifa people killing one their own in a state of mental trumpyness .
http://huffp.st/R1rhMzK
A member of the Proud Boys street gang was charged Tuesday with second-degree murder in Seattle, accused of killing his brother with a sword.
I dont recall any antifa people killing one their own in a state of mental trumpyness .
Dotini
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The meeting between top Democrats and the president ended abruptly on an unpleasant tone. The odds of a declaration of national emergency have increased dramatically. Such a declaration would by law give the president unspecified and open-ended new powers. The Defense Department has declared itself unready for war with Russia and China. But they don't have a problem defending the southern border, having already affirmed they will salute and do what the president orders. If this eventuates, I expect exploding heads and hair on fire in the House of Representatives and of course in the media. No need to wait for Game of Thrones to be entertained by a kingdom at war with itself. "Let them all burn!", cried the Mad King on the iron throne.
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Danoff
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The meeting between top Democrats and the president ended abruptly on an unpleasant tone. The odds of a declaration of national emergency have increased dramatically. Such a declaration would by law give the president unspecified and open-ended new powers. The Defense Department has declared itself unready for war with Russia and China. But they don't have a problem defending the southern border, having already affirmed they will salute and do what the president orders. If this eventuates, I expect exploding heads and hair on fire in the House of Representatives and of course in the media. No need to wait for Game of Thrones to be entertained by a kingdom at war with itself. "Let them all burn!", cried the Mad King on the iron throne.
Not actually clear that he can do that. There will be a legal fight.
