America - The Official Thread

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Is upset with Trump's dishonest tweets, yet calls Robert Reich "quite credible" who is the left version of Sean Hannity & Rush Limbaugh.

Reich has held positions in three different administrations (Ford, Carter, Clinton), and on the transition team of a fourth (Obama). One of those posts was cabinet level - he was Secretary of Labor under Clinton. I get that you don't agree with his ideas, but comparing him to charlatans like Hannity and Rush is quite a stretch.

Notice anything a little unexpected about one of those administrations he worked on? If Reich was truly nothing more than a left-wing Hannity, then why on Earth did he work for a Republican administration?
 
-Is upset with Trump's dishonest tweets, yet calls Robert Reich "quite credible" who is the left version of Sean Hannity & Rush Limbaugh.
-Claims whataboutism/whatever to others, yet does it himself with Trump.
Neither of those points has anything to do with the building of pointless walls on either side of the Atlantic.
 
Neither of those points has anything to do with the building of pointless walls on either side of the Atlantic.
Called examples. You'd think: "it far more likely that those that object to one, object to the other", but that isn't the case with Pocket's history.
 
-Is upset with Trump's dishonest tweets, yet calls Robert Reich "quite credible" who is the left version of Sean Hannity & Rush Limbaugh.

Gimme a break. The comparison is ridiculous.

Robert Bernard Reich is an American political commentator, professor, and author. He served in the administrations of PresidentsGerald Ford, Jimmy Carter, and Bill Clinton. He was Secretary of Labor from 1993 to 1997. He was a member of President-elect Barack Obama's economic transition advisory board.

Reich has been the Chancellor's Professor of Public Policy at the Goldman School of Public Policy at UC Berkeley since January 2006. He was formerly a professor at Harvard University's John F. Kennedy School of Government and professor of social and economic policy at the Heller School for Social Policy and Management of Brandeis University. He has also been a contributing editor of The New Republic, The American Prospect (also chairman and founding editor), Harvard Business Review, The Atlantic, The New York Times, and The Wall Street Journal.

Time magazine named him one of the Ten Best Cabinet Members of the century, and The Wall Street Journal in 2008 placed him sixth on its list of the "Most Influential Business Thinkers".
 
Gimme a break. The comparison is ridiculous.

Have you looked at his YouTube page? You can flaunt all the credentials you want, it won't change the fact his videos use the same sensationalizing Hannity and Rush use.

There's also this nugget of wisdom...

By freezing federal salaries, by talking about deficits, by extending the Bush tax cuts, he’s legitimizing a Republican narrative,

https://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/08/business/economy/08reich.html
 
Called examples. You'd think: "it far more likely that those that object to one, object to the other", but that isn't the case with Pocket's history.
I'm discussing one example, that it's hypocritical to take trump to task over a wall while not doing the same to Orban. Not only is that whataboutism, I'm yet to see you provide evidence to support its even true. Let alone a wider issue among trump critics.
 
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What are the criteria for the officially published unemployment rate in the USA?

Who classes as unemployed?
Or, to eliminate any doubt, who classes as employed?

I ask because I was looking at the figures for the United Kingdom and people who are doing unpaid work experience are classified as "employed" and thus not included in the unemployed figure. Zero-hour contracted workers, which could be 40 hours a week but also as little as 1 hour, are also counted as employed and not included in the unemployment figure. Additionally, many people who are still claiming welfare and not earning a wage or salary are also classed as "employed" if they are taking part in the schemes that the job centre coerces encourages them to do.

Obviously this is just window dressing to make the government look good and I was wondering if similar practices are used in the USA.
 
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What do you people think of AOC's 70% top marginal rate idea?

Article 1
Article 2

(Sorry, they are both NYT, kinda in a rush)

For those that aren't really aware of it, marginal tax (all income tax in the USA) means that you pay a higher tax rate on money earned above certain thresholds. But it appears a lot of people just assume the top rate applies to the entire income of somebody in that bracket, which it does not. Only the income over that threshold is taxed at the higher rate. It makes a lot of sense when you think about it. For AOC's proposal (not sure you can call it a proposal at this point), I believe, any additional income above $10M would be taxed at 70%. Anyways, I don't want to get into a thesis here, but this 70% thing seems to be making the rounds, so I thought I'd start a discussion here.

As an aside, we had extremely high tax rates during the time America Was Great (or whatever) and the economy was pretty healthy in those years.

Aside #2: I don't remember a freshman member of congress (including one Barrack Obama) making more waves than AOC. The humorous part is that I imagine she would be pretty irrelevant if the reactionary part of the right side of the spectrum hadn't dedicated so much time to her. To have a short-form nickname (AOC) at this point is pretty impressive! (My take: I mostly think her ideas are wildly unworkable and she really needs more experience, but damn she's got charisma! As Trump has proved without question is that Charisma and a loud mouth is all that really matters ultimately)
 
What do you people think of AOC's 70% top marginal rate idea?

Article 1
Article 2

(Sorry, they are both NYT, kinda in a rush)

For those that aren't really aware of it, marginal tax (all income tax in the USA) means that you pay a higher tax rate on money earned above certain thresholds. But it appears a lot of people just assume the top rate applies to the entire income of somebody in that bracket, which it does not. Only the income over that threshold is taxed at the higher rate. It makes a lot of sense when you think about it. For AOC's proposal (not sure you can call it a proposal at this point), I believe, any additional income above $10M would be taxed at 70%. Anyways, I don't want to get into a thesis here, but this 70% thing seems to be making the rounds, so I thought I'd start a discussion here.

As an aside, we had extremely high tax rates during the time America Was Great (or whatever) and the economy was pretty healthy in those years.

Aside #2: I don't remember a freshman member of congress (including one Barrack Obama) making more waves than AOC. The humorous part is that I imagine she would be pretty irrelevant if the reactionary part of the right side of the spectrum hadn't dedicated so much time to her. To have a short-form nickname (AOC) at this point is pretty impressive! (My take: I mostly think her ideas are wildly unworkable and she really needs more experience, but damn she's got charisma! As Trump has proved without question is that Charisma and a loud mouth is all that really matters ultimately)

I think it would have a minimal effect. Mostly because folks making $10M are either already incorporated as a business or would become so. So I would imagine that effectively zero individuals would file personal income over over $10M.
 
Maybe he meant Bush Senior?

Doubtful.

I'm hedging my bets on some ridiculous story about how he was at Reagan's farewell party in 1989 and Reagan told him in confidence it's something that he should have done but could never get pushed through.

Seems more likely than Jimmy Carter, anyway.
 
I think it would have a minimal effect. Mostly because folks making $10M are either already incorporated as a business or would become so. So I would imagine that effectively zero individuals would file personal income over over $10M.

You think CEO's would incorporate their personal earnings from another corporation? Does that happen already or not?
 
You think CEO's would incorporate their personal earnings from another corporation? Does that happen already or not?

There are so many games that higher-up employees play. They still pay their tax, but they have options. Some corporations have what's called deferred compensation packages. It's trivial, for example, to set up a contract whereby your employer agrees to pay you $10M for 6 years instead of $50M now. It already exists, in some cases, that employers are willing to agree to pay you those future dollars as though you had invested them in socks or mutual funds of your choosing. So if you're entitled to a $50M bonus as the CEO, you can be paid $10M and be paid the remaining $40M at some future date based on that $40M's theoretical performance in the market - smeared out in installments.

I have every confidence that instead of Microsoft paying Bill Gates $50M one year they could pay Bill Gates Incorporated that $50M. Or Bill gates could personally direct $40M of his $50M to Bill Gates Incorporated and take the remainder as personal income.

At the top end of income there are many games that can be played, and corporate and individual taxes begin to blur.
 
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There are so many games that higher-up employees play. They still pay their tax, but they have options. Some corporations have what's called deferred compensation packages. It's trivial, for example, to set up a contract whereby your employer agrees to pay you $10M for 6 years instead of $50M now. It already exists, in some cases, that employers are willing to agree to pay you those future dollars as though you had invested them in socks or mutual funds of your choosing. So if you're entitled to a $50M bonus as the CEO, you can be paid $10M and be paid the remaining $40M at some future date based on that $40M's theoretical performance in the market.

I have every confidence that instead of Microsoft paying Bill Gates $50M one year they could pay Bill Gates Incorporated that $50M. Or Bill gates could personally direct $40M of his $50M to Bill Gates Incorporated and take the remainder as personal income.

At the top end of income there are many games that can be played, and corporate and individual taxes begin to blur.

Do you think the NYT article I linked has merit in it's assesment that prior to the 1980s these very large salaries were uncommon? I mean they claim that the CEO-salaried worker ratio was 20:1 compared to 271:1 today. Other factors (such as automation) are obviously at play. It's theoretically possible for Amazon (for example) to automate every single position except for Bezo's CEO position. At that point the aforementioned ratio would be infinite, because he would be Amazon. Is it time to start taxing automation? This is something I've thought about. You still make it a workable business decision to use automation, but you effectively use robots (or whatever equivalent to human labor) to generate income for people who are not unemployed. They can work at tiny labor rates (like $1/hr) but the enormous productivity difference could offset it. I think this is a scary concept for fiscal conservatives (communism!) but I think there is a point on the horizon where there are no jobs for many/most people. I don't think it's science fiction to see that. If absolutist fiscal conservatives had there way, these people would be effectively left to die. I've strayed off the original topic. But unless we want to live in a complete oligarchy, I think we need to figure out ways to limit income/wealth concentration.
 
Do you think the NYT article I linked has merit in it's assesment that prior to the 1980s these very large salaries were uncommon? I mean they claim that the CEO-salaried worker ratio was 20:1 compared to 271:1 today. Other factors (such as automation) are obviously at play. It's theoretically possible for Amazon (for example) to automate every single position except for Bezo's CEO position. At that point the aforementioned ratio would be infinite, because he would be Amazon. Is it time to start taxing automation? This is something I've thought about. You still make it a workable business decision to use automation, but you effectively use robots (or whatever equivalent to human labor) to generate income for people who are not unemployed. They can work at tiny labor rates (like $1/hr) but the enormous productivity difference could offset it. I think this is a scary concept for fiscal conservatives (communism!) but I think there is a point on the horizon where there are no jobs for many/most people. I don't think it's science fiction to see that. If absolutist fiscal conservatives had there way, these people would be effectively left to die. I've strayed off the original topic. But unless we want to live in a complete oligarchy, I think we need to figure out ways to limit income/wealth concentration.

Each employee generates their own value out of thin air. There is not a finite amount of wealth to go around, so there is no problem with "concentration". Bezos's fortune does not make anyone else less fortune. If your work at your job is worth $16/hr, and you agree to split that 50-50 with your employer such that they make $8/hr on you for the trouble and risk of hiring you and to pay your overhead, and you make $8/hr for the work, then you're producing your paycheck. If you weren't doing the work, there would be less production in the world, and less wealth in the world.

Automation is a direct response to employee overhead. Employees in America have never had more overhead expenses to generate in order to find employment. Social security matching, health care benefits, paid time off, the threat of injury compensation, OSHA compliance standards, anti-discrimination policies and enforcement... the list is enormous. The burden rests directly on each employee to generate all of that value in addition to their own paycheck. Automation is a way to avoid having to hire expensive employees, and its research is fueled partly by, for example, fast food workers demanding $15/hr.

CEO compensation is huge today in part because of globalization. Corporations are larger, and have more customers, than ever. CEOs likewise have more demands. Running a company like this looks nothing like running a small business. As a CEO of a global company, you meet with regional vice presidents to determine strategies for various countries and balance those with corporate wide strategies. It requires discussions about the differences in law, culture, government, and evolution of local competition across the planet. As a CEO for a global company you'll be briefed on the acquisition rules and analysis for a buyout of a competitor in China. The CEO role has never been more demanding, and also has never had a broader pool of customers from which to draw compensation. Companies have to hire not just a brilliant business mind, but a celebrity. Someone who portrays the right image to the public, who can become the brand. It's a tough role to fill.

Walmart has 2.3M employees. That is just... it's an eye watering number.
 
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What are the criteria for the officially published unemployment rate in the USA?

Who classes as unemployed?
Or, to eliminate any doubt, who classes as employed?

Unemployed =
-in the "labor force", yet jobless

So what qualifies someone as labor force?
-anybody that's currently employed and over the age of 16
-anybody that currently doesn't have a job but has been actively searching for x amount of time (forgot what it was)
-someone that was laid off temporarily and probably's coming back(summer layoffs)

I ask because I was looking at the figures for the United Kingdom and people who are doing unpaid work experience are classified as "employed" and thus not included in the unemployed figure. Zero-hour contracted workers, which could be 40 hours a week but also as little as 1 hour, are also counted as employed and not included in the unemployment figure. Additionally, many people who are still claiming welfare and not earning a wage or salary are also classed as "employed" if they are taking part in the schemes that the job centre coerces encourages them to do.

Obviously this is just window dressing to make the government look good and I was wondering if similar practices are used in the USA.

I'm not entirely sure, but I think in the US those people would still be considered employed. And the US has various other unemployment numbers that throw in different things like "discouraged workers" and part-time workers looking for full-time. But when people talk about the main "unemployment rate", those things aren't included in that number.
 
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Each employee generates their own value out of thin air. There is not a finite amount of wealth to go around, so there is no problem with "concentration". Bezo's fortune does not make anyone else less fortune. If your work at your job is worth $16/hr, and you agree to split that 50-50 with your employer such that they make $8/hr on you for the trouble and risk of hiring you and to pay your overhead, and you make $8/hr for the work, then you're producing your paycheck. If you weren't doing the work, there would be less production in the world, and less wealth in the world.

I question how much of the economy today is actually productive, and how much of it is actually indeed concentrating wealth into different areas. If a startup generates a lot of hype, IPO's to some incredible valuation, and then fails without making a product, it's conceivable that some people will make a lot of money for effectively no reason. Where's the production? It would be similar to having a gofundme and then taking donations. People give you money and there is no tangible production. Money moving from many places (investment on IPO in example A or donations on gofundme in example B) to fewer or one place seems like concentration rather than production to me. This isn't really true with Amazon as a company, but a lot of Bezo's net worth is tied up in Amazon's valuation. Bezo was probably a bad example to start with. Do you think concentration doesn't happen, ever?

Automation is a direct response to employee overhead. Employees in America have never had more overhead expenses to generate in order to find employment. Social security matching, health care benefits, paid time off, the threat of injury compensation, OSHA compliance standards, anti-discrimination policies and enforcement... the list is enormous. The burden rests directly on each employee to generate all of that value in addition to their own paycheck. Automation is a way to avoid having to hire expensive employees, and its research is fueled partly by, for example, fast food workers demanding $15/hr.

I'm not debating the merits or causes of automation. It's completely understandable to automate from a business perspective. But isn't it conceivable to see a future where there are no jobs left for humans? Automation will likely reduce the costs of things across the board, but will there ever be a truly free lunch? If not, than how are people going to pay for things without the means to earn money?

CEO compensation is huge today in part because of globalization. Corporations are larger, and have more customers, than ever. CEOs likewise have more demands. Running a company like this looks nothing like running a small business. As a CEO of a global company, you meet with regional vice presidents to determine strategies for various countries and balance those with corporate wide strategies. It requires discussions about the differences in law, culture, government, and evolution of local competition across the planet. As a CEO for a global company you'll be briefed on the acquisition rules and analysis for a buyout of a competitor in China. The CEO role has never been more demanding, and also has never had a broader pool of customers from which to draw compensation. Companies have to hire not just a brilliant business mind, but a celebrity. Someone who portrays the right image to the public, who can become the brand. It's a tough role to fill.

Walmart has 2.3M employees. That is just... it's an eye watering number.

Right, I get that being a CEO is hard and demanding. But a lot of jobs are hard and demanding. Is it harder or more demanding than being a brain surgeon? 50 times more demanding? I doubt it. But they can make upwards of 50x more money. CEO's make so much money because they can more than any other reason. And that's fine. But the super-rich have a habit of walling off vast wealth in perpetuity, which effectively removes a LOT of production from the economy. Whether it's offshore accounts for various reasons, gold stashed somewhere, real estate that is held through multiple generations or other methods. It would be much better if they did their consumer duty and just bought tons of Yachts and **** :lol::lol:. This is essentially the crux of the problem with AOC's 70% tax on wealth....it would probably exacerbate how much money is removed from the system...
 
I question how much of the economy today is actually productive, and how much of it is actually indeed concentrating wealth into different areas. If a startup generates a lot of hype, IPO's to some incredible valuation, and then fails without making a product, it's conceivable that some people will make a lot of money for effectively no reason. Where's the production? It would be similar to having a gofundme and then taking donations. People give you money and there is no tangible production. Money moving from many places (investment on IPO in example A or donations on gofundme in example B) to fewer or one place seems like concentration rather than production to me. This isn't really true with Amazon as a company, but a lot of Bezo's net worth is tied up in Amazon's valuation. Bezo was probably a bad example to start with. Do you think concentration doesn't happen, ever?

I'd say yes wealth concentration happens, but it generally doesn't mean what people think it means. Certainly there are cases where people are swindled out of money for no real goods or services in exchange. That's a drag on the economy, and the hope is that the market finds it and weeds it out. Multi-level marketing schemes (rather than IPOs) would be an excellent example.

I'm not debating the merits or causes of automation. It's completely understandable to automate from a business perspective. But isn't it conceivable to see a future where there are no jobs left for humans? Automation will likely reduce the costs of things across the board, but will there ever be a truly free lunch? If not, than how are people going to pay for things without the means to earn money?

I don't think it's possible in the short run for automation to eliminate all jobs. The more our standard of living rises, the more we consume, but also the more we focus on leisure. And leisure is one area where human creativity really dominates. Machine learning can pick up on patterns, but the more people are fed patterns in entertainment the more they start to value things which break from the mold. I think that machine learning could produce pop music one day, for example, but I think that a wide supply of AI generated pop music would result in a backlash toward music which broke from that mold. Part of art is uniqueness.

In the short run, machines flipping burgers may cause the workforce to restructure (leaving some people unemployed briefly), but it also raises standard of living by reducing costs. The more machines do, the lower costs get until ultimately, when they do everything, there is no cost for anything. Machines could design, build, and send other machines to harvest resources from an asteroid to be sent back to earth for the purpose of creating products that humans want, and that process could ultimately have zero cost. Because a self-sufficient system of machines, which repair each other, design each other, create their fuel, and ultimately harvest their own resources from wherever those resources are found, can build it.

Right, I get that being a CEO is hard and demanding. But a lot of jobs are hard and demanding. Is it harder or more demanding than being a brain surgeon? 50 times more demanding? I doubt it. But they can make upwards of 50x more money. CEO's make so much money because they can more than any other reason. And that's fine. But the super-rich have a habit of walling off vast wealth in perpetuity, which effectively removes a LOT of production from the economy. Whether it's offshore accounts for various reasons, gold stashed somewhere, real estate that is held through multiple generations or other methods. It would be much better if they did their consumer duty and just bought tons of Yachts and **** :lol::lol:. This is essentially the crux of the problem with AOC's 70% tax on wealth....it would probably exacerbate how much money is removed from the system...

Ok, from the perspective of taking money out of the economy, I'll just leave you with this. If you create $1 out of thin air, and then share it with no one, who have you hurt?

From the perspective of how much money they make, I'll give you an example. You're an attorney who is revisiting licensing fees that your company is paying to other companies. During your review you find that you're licensing a product that you no longer sell, and are paying a licensing fee for nothing. You call up the licensing company and inform them of this, and they point out that your product on the market is covered by the license. You claim that it isn't. After some debate, it becomes apparent that the other company was wrong, and that the licensing fees are not needed for the products on the market. You reach an agreement. Your company stops paying $10M annually for licensing fees. You have now generated $10M for your company. In this case, you didn't generate it out of thin air, you redistributed it (which is often the case for lawyers), but from the perspective of your company, you generated $10M annually for the rest of your tenure at the company. This took you 3 weeks of negotiation.

Let's pretend that your salary at the company is $500k annually. In the course of doing your job for 3 weeks, you've saved the company your salary times 20 every year from now on. That is why you get paid a lot of money. Not because you work hard, not because you're a better person, or smarter, or have a stronger work ethic, but because your job is easily worth that much to the company.
 
I'd say yes wealth concentration happens, but it generally doesn't mean what people think it means. Certainly there are cases where people are swindled out of money for no real goods or services in exchange. That's a drag on the economy, and the hope is that the market finds it and weeds it out. Multi-level marketing schemes (rather than IPOs) would be an excellent example.

I was actually thinking of my example being somewhat analogous to MLM schemes. I guess what I'm getting at with my example is that I feel like some of the hype-built market valuations in recent years feel like Ponzi schemes, especially the ones that don't seem like they even try to deliver. Did pets.com founders ever really think that the company could be profitable? Similarly, did the myriad of blockchain startups have good intentions when announcing ICOs? I shouldn't be so negative, but the feeling I get is that they founded these companies in the spirit of opportunism during periods of immense hype, to make some quick profit before the market segment imploded. I think we can agree that fraud stinks and is inherently bad for the capitalist system.

I don't really disagree with anything else you said. I guess I fumbled a bit with my last bit. What I was getting at was posing the question (and getting back to my OP): could taking an extra 30-40% of earnings over $10M/yr be more productively used/allocated by the government than it would be socked away by the original earners? Obviously those earning the money would have reason to say no (it's their money) but tax is inherently flawed and yet so far necessary. Is taking 70% any more arbitrary than taking 35%? Not really. As how I see most things, I think it's a calibration issue. 0% tax is too low, because you wouldn't be able to fund the government. 100% tax is too high because there is no incentive to work. Maybe the top rate should be increased periodically to cool down income inequality. Maybe the top rate should only apply to post-discretionary income? Meaning how much are you left with after you've spent that money on yachts and planes and other investments that do presumably 'trickle down'. Maybe earnings over a certain amount only qualify for certain types of investments. I'm not sure. The status quo seems to have issues. I mean the question of workability and other practical concerns are very real, as you noted, but just keeping it theoretical for debate's sake.
 
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/08/nyregion/trump-tower-natalya-veselnitskaya-indictment.html


Looks like the russian trump tower meeting woman is in hotwater now

Natalia V. Veselnitskaya, the Russian lawyer who in 2016 met with Trump campaign officials in Trump Tower, was charged on Tuesday in a separate case that showed her close ties to the Kremlin.

Ms. Veselnitskaya, a pivotal figure in the investigation into Russian interference in the presidential election, was charged by federal prosecutors in Manhattan with seeking to thwart an earlier investigation into money laundering that involved an influential Russian businessman and his investment firm




Washington (CNN) - Special counsel Robert Mueller believes that Paul Manafort was sharing polling data and discussing Russian-Ukrainian policy with his close Russian-intelligence-linked associate, Konstantin Kilimnik, while he led the Trump presidential campaign, according to parts of a court filing that were meant to be redacted by Manafort's legal team Tuesday but were released publicly.

Looks like paul is in more trouble also

https://cnn.it/2CXRvQM



It seems congress now wants to know why Trumps whitehouse lifted sanctions on one if putins pals

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/04/us/politics/senate-sanctions-oleg-deripaska-russia.html


Congress is reviewing the Trump administration’s decision to lift sanctions on companies owned by Oleg V. Deripaska, an influential Russian oligarch with close ties to President Vladimir V. Putin, Democrats said on Friday.

The reviews could fuel a congressional effort to block the administration’s decision, which came after an aggressive lobbying and legal campaign against the sanctions by Mr. Deripaska’s corporate empire.
 
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Is it me or Trump sounds a bit like a 10 years old average reader, when reading a text as long as the one he read tonight?
He doesn't seem to read far forward enough to handle the ponctuation pauses correctly.
 
I'd say yes wealth concentration happens, but it generally doesn't mean what people think it means. Certainly there are cases where people are swindled out of money for no real goods or services in exchange. That's a drag on the economy, and the hope is that the market finds it and weeds it out. Multi-level marketing schemes (rather than IPOs) would be an excellent example.



I don't think it's possible in the short run for automation to eliminate all jobs. The more our standard of living rises, the more we consume, but also the more we focus on leisure. And leisure is one area where human creativity really dominates. Machine learning can pick up on patterns, but the more people are fed patterns in entertainment the more they start to value things which break from the mold. I think that machine learning could produce pop music one day, for example, but I think that a wide supply of AI generated pop music would result in a backlash toward music which broke from that mold. Part of art is uniqueness.

In the short run, machines flipping burgers may cause the workforce to restructure (leaving some people unemployed briefly), but it also raises standard of living by reducing costs. The more machines do, the lower costs get until ultimately, when they do everything, there is no cost for anything. Machines could design, build, and send other machines to harvest resources from an asteroid to be sent back to earth for the purpose of creating products that humans want, and that process could ultimately have zero cost. Because a self-sufficient system of machines, which repair each other, design each other, create their fuel, and ultimately harvest their own resources from wherever those resources are found, can build it.



Ok, from the perspective of taking money out of the economy, I'll just leave you with this. If you create $1 out of thin air, and then share it with no one, who have you hurt?

From the perspective of how much money they make, I'll give you an example. You're an attorney who is revisiting licensing fees that your company is paying to other companies. During your review you find that you're licensing a product that you no longer sell, and are paying a licensing fee for nothing. You call up the licensing company and inform them of this, and they point out that your product on the market is covered by the license. You claim that it isn't. After some debate, it becomes apparent that the other company was wrong, and that the licensing fees are not needed for the products on the market. You reach an agreement. Your company stops paying $10M annually for licensing fees. You have now generated $10M for your company. In this case, you didn't generate it out of thin air, you redistributed it (which is often the case for lawyers), but from the perspective of your company, you generated $10M annually for the rest of your tenure at the company. This took you 3 weeks of negotiation.

Let's pretend that your salary at the company is $500k annually. In the course of doing your job for 3 weeks, you've saved the company your salary times 20 every year from now on. That is why you get paid a lot of money. Not because you work hard, not because you're a better person, or smarter, or have a stronger work ethic, but because your job is easily worth that much to the company.

Danoff: this has less to do with earned income/salaries & more to do with capital gains & dividends & other financial instruments which the very wealthy are able to take advantage of. These are not people who "work" for a living, like attorneys, or dentists or plastic surgeons, but people with accumulated wealth. With the globalization of the economy & the globalization of the financial industry I suspect it's pretty difficult to force many very wealthy people to pay high taxes rates within a particular tax jurisdiction.
 
Hold on.... I wanna know.... how does one make a dollar out of thin air?

You create value out of thin air by working. For example, I have a coconut business. I work as hard as I can every day selling coconuts for $10/day. You do nothing. I hire you to help me sell coconuts. I pay you $8/day, and keep $2/day. I also work as hard as I can selling coconuts for $10/day. I make $12/day, you make $8/day. The wealth created by the two of us just went from $10/day to $20/day because you started working.

Danoff: this has less to do with earned income/salaries & more to do with capital gains & dividends & other financial instruments which the very wealthy are able to take advantage of. These are not people who "work" for a living, like attorneys, or dentists or plastic surgeons, but people with accumulated wealth. With the globalization of the economy & the globalization of the financial industry I suspect it's pretty difficult to force many very wealthy people to pay high taxes rates within a particular tax jurisdiction.

If we're talking about capital gains, and trying to apply a 70% personal income tax, they have to be holding it for less than a year, unless the proposed tax also gets rid of the concept of long term and short term capital gains. Capital gains is more "work" than a multi-level marking scheme. My hypothetical attorney is fairly legit though, I didn't pluck that example from nowhere.
 
If we're talking about capital gains, and trying to apply a 70% personal income tax, they have to be holding it for less than a year, unless the proposed tax also gets rid of the concept of long term and short term capital gains. Capital gains is more "work" than a multi-level marking scheme. My hypothetical attorney is fairly legit though, I didn't pluck that example from nowhere.

I don't know how a (hypothetical) much higher tax rate might work. Clearly it's not going to be as simple as applying a 70% marginal personal income tax rate ... which is why you end up with a very complex tax code.

Your attorney is working making $500,000/year - a good salary, but peanuts compared to the very rich. Like this chap for instance:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Grosvenor,_7th_Duke_of_Westminster

He probably has some good tax lawyers working for him.
 
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