America - The Official Thread

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So any thoughts here about the congressional hearing of Cohen? I am baffled how the republicans wasted the opportunity by just discrediting him, instead of asking questions to find out if his testimony is true or not.
Judging by the demographics the part about black people being too stupid to vote for Trump is an obvious untruth. Clearly, some black people are just stupid enough to vote for him. :lol:

But yes, I noticed a lot of poisoning the well going on and not a lot of counterevidence. I guess this is the nature of a story based purely on testimony.
 
I am baffled how the republicans wasted the opportunity by just discrediting him, instead of asking questions to find out if his testimony is true or not.

I'd reckon it's because they already knew damn well it was all true.

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He's just sucking up to the left to get less time.

Are you, for some reason, under the impression that Democrat congressional members get to set his sentence? Might I ask what gave you that impression? Because I'm pretty sure it's 100% bull caca.
 
The House can investigate and refer charges to the Justice Department for prosecution. They can cut slack to witnesses who cooperate.
 
The House can investigate and refer charges to the Justice Department for prosecution. They can cut slack to witnesses who cooperate.

Perhaps true, but lying again would be an incredible stupid thing to do. There is no benefit in throwing Trump under the bus in this situation. If the truth was that Trump a good guy wouldnt it have benefited him much more?
 
The House can investigate and refer charges to the Justice Department for prosecution. They can cut slack to witnesses who cooperate.

Sure, they can refer charges, but that's not the same as sentencing. Once the case lands in a federal court, it goes through the same process as all other cases. AOC isn't sending an email to a federal judge, dictating the sentences he hands out.

That's all moot, anyways, as Cohen has already been sentenced in his tax evasion and perjury cases, and it was made clear before yesterday's hearing that there was absolutely no way his sentence could or would be affected by his testimony.

Stop trying to lend credence to Ryzno's conspiratorial nonsense.

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Perhaps true, but lying again would be an incredible stupid thing to do. There is no benefit in throwing Trump under the bus in this situation. If the truth was that Trump a good guy wouldnt it have benefited him much more?

Interestingly, he did defend Trump at times, most notably when the topic of a long-rumored tape of Trump hitting Melania came up, Cohen not only denied knowledge of the tape, which would have been sufficient, he also volunteered the opinion that Trump may be a lot of things, but he would never hit his wife. That doesn't exactly jive with the notion that he was just up there looking to tell lies and bury Trump.
 
Perhaps true, but lying again would be an incredible stupid thing to do. There is no benefit in throwing Trump under the bus in this situation. If the truth was that Trump a good guy wouldnt it have benefited him much more?
If he was lying, he could be vulnerable to yet more charges.
 
I wonder what ottos family thinks of this

President Donald Trump on Thursday said he does not hold North Korean dictator Kim Jong Un responsible for Otto Warmbier's death after Kim denied knowledge of the American student's maltreatment


https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/28/politics/trump-otto-warmbier-kim-jong-un/index.html



"Americans know the cruelty that was placed on Otto Warmbier by the North Korean regime," Nikki Haley, Trump's former Ambassador to the United Nations, tweeted. "Our hearts are with the Warmbier family for their strength and courage. We will never forget Otto."


Sen. Sherrod Brown, the Ohio Democrat whose constituents include Warmbier's parents, said Trump's comment "sends a message to dictators."


Former Republican Sen. Rick Santorum said it was "reprehensible, what he just did."


Im thinking this is not going to go away just yet .


And here is ottos parents now speaking out


The family of an American college student who died after being imprisoned in North Korea spoke out a day after President Donald Trump said he takes Kim Jong Un’sword that he didn’t know about the mistreatment of their son.

https://globalnews.ca/news/5012061/trump-kim-otto-warmbier-parents-statement/
 
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I wonder what ottos family thinks of this

President Donald Trump on Thursday said he does not hold North Korean dictator Kim Jong Un responsible for Otto Warmbier's death after Kim denied knowledge of the American student's maltreatment


https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/28/politics/trump-otto-warmbier-kim-jong-un/index.html
Hopefully any responsible national leader would put human rights in a lower position of importance than international relations. The cruel mistreatment of an individual should not become the cause celebre that takes nations to war and puts an additional million people to death. We elect a president to lead us to peace and prosperity, not divine justice and revenge.
 
What does she have to do with my opinion about Cohen?
Obviously she isn't gonna tell a judge what to do.

I guess you would have to explain what exactly you mean by writing this then:

He's just sucking up to the left to get less time.

In what way exactly is he "sucking up"? Who exactly is "the left" you're referring to? How exactly is it going to result in him getting "less time."
 
Hopefully any responsible national leader would put human rights in a lower position of importance than international relations. The cruel mistreatment of an individual should not become the cause celebre that takes nations to war and puts an additional million people to death. We elect a president to lead us to peace and prosperity, not divine
Except that is not what i asked. Not sure why you would quote my post with a answer that is propoganda?
 
Having the highest income more will reduce their wealth and repurpose the taxed money into something that will benefit everyone and the weaker links. A society is only as good as its weakest link. I realise I sound very much like a socialist, but I am emphasizing on the highest income brackets. It strange as a society to accept that in a society of for example 100, 1 has 35% and 40 people have only 1% and cannot pay their bills and totally accept it. My proposition is to actually to tax yearly after a budget has been formed.

Lets sau 100 people have 1 million distributed like below:

1 person 35% 350.000 p.p.
4 people 30% 75.000 p.p.
35 people 30% 8.571 p.p.
20 people 4% 2.000 p.p.
40 people 1% 250 p.p.

The society needs 200.000 to pay for common services. "equal tax" is 20%

1 person has 280.000
4 people have 60.000
35 people have 6.857
20 people have 1.600
40 people have 200

Out of the above the 20 people make a good living and 40 make less then minimum wage and cannot pay their bills.


Lets say the following year the societies income is again 1.000.000. Also the society had an incident that damaged infrastructure and will need an extra 20.000 to fix it on top of the 200.000. And also decided to help the bottom tiers of income with 60k of subsidies.

So lets say the bottom 2 go to a 5% tax bracket, 35 people pay 15%, 4 people pay 30% and 1 person pays 50% of the 280.000 total tax needed (60.000 extra to subsidize the bottom to a minimum wage and 20.000 to pay for a deficit), what would remain of their wealth?

1 person has 210.000
4 people have 54.000
35 people have 7.371
20 people will have 1440 (before subsidize) +12% of 60k (divided by 20) = 1.800
40 people will have 180 (before subsidize) +88% of 60k(divided by 40)= 1.500

Of course none of that ties income tax brackets in with the chart that you showed. You can tax the rich, and create welfare programs, or even reduce taxes, on the lower end all you want... it will not change the reported income of those people.

You keep coming back to some notion of a pie where someone is getting a bigger slice than someone else. This is not how economics works. There is no spoon, and there is no pie. You don't get a slice of it, your ability to create value for yourself is not dependent on whether or not someone else does. The 1 person with 35% in your example does not cause the sizes of anyone else's wealth to be what they are. 40 people in that example had 1%. But those 40 people do not have to take anything from anyone else to double the amount of value they create... or magnify it by a factor of 100. It is entirely within their control. Why should I not "accept" that people have the wealth they create?

What's happening to you (and so many others) is that you're coming face-to-face with the nonlinearity of economics. Property creates wealth on its own. Because it is valuable, because it "works" on its own (if you employ it). So the more property you have, the more wealth you can create. Again this is not harming others. That fact though, that more property creates more wealth, is a runaway effect. The more you have, the more wealth you can create. But you only ever have the wealth you create, you never create and subsequently own what other people are creating. That's their wealth. Keep in mind I'm not referring to currency or money, I'm referring to value, real value, not faked. It is only good for the world that more real value is created. Something valuable, which did not previously exist, was generated. No harm done. In fact, that's what we want.


I picked up the latest IRS 1040 tax table today.

A single person reporting $25K income pays $2813 in federal income tax.
A single person reporting $50K income pays $6945 in federal income tax.
A single person reporting $98K income pays $17,817 in federal income tax.

For married or head of household it is less.


*taxable income, which is not the same thing as income.

A person earning 25k in income has access to the standard deduction, reducing their taxable income to 13k. The total tax liability for that person is $1370. If they had a dependent child, the liability would be $0. If they were married, the liability would be $100. If they put $5k into a 401k, were unmarried, and had no children, the liability would be $800. If they put no money in an IRA, were unmarried, had no children, but were over the age of 65, the liability would be $1178. All of the above assumes no deductible property taxes or state taxes.

A single person earning $50k in income pays $4,370 (no IRA, no kids, no age exemption).

A single person earning $98k in income pays $14,900. With 1 dependent child, $12,930. and Married, $6,499. With $250/paycheck health insurance premiums paid through their employer.. $5,719... with a $5000 per year retirement plan contribution... $5119. Or with an $18,500 per year retirement plan contribution... $3500.
 
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Interestingly, he did defend Trump at times, most notably when the topic of a long-rumored tape of Trump hitting Melania came up, Cohen not only denied knowledge of the tape, which would have been sufficient, he also volunteered the opinion that Trump may be a lot of things, but he would never hit his wife. That doesn't exactly jive with the notion that he was just up there looking to tell lies and bury Trump.

Precisely. Its just amazing how with all these revelations, these congressmen/women choose to defend trump and try to descredot as much of it as they can.

Of course none of that ties income tax brackets in with the chart that you showed. You can tax the rich, and create welfare programs, or even reduce taxes, on the lower end all you want... it will not change the reported income of those people.

You keep coming back to some notion of a pie where someone is getting a bigger slice than someone else. This is not how economics works. There is no spoon, and there is no pie. You don't get a slice of it, your ability to create value for yourself is not dependent on whether or not someone else does. The 1 person with 35% in your example does not cause the sizes of anyone else's wealth to be what they are. 40 people in that example had 1%. But those 40 people do not have to take anything from anyone else to double the amount of value they create... or magnify it by a factor of 100. It is entirely within their control. Why should I not "accept" that people have the wealth they create?

What's happening to you (and so many others) is that you're coming face-to-face with the nonlinearity of economics. Property creates wealth on its own. Because it is valuable, because it "works" on its own (if you employ it). So the more property you have, the more wealth you can create. Again this is not harming others. That fact though, that more property creates more wealth, is a runaway effect. The more you have, the more wealth you can create. But you only ever have the wealth you create, you never create and subsequently own what other people are creating. That's their wealth. Keep in mind I'm not referring to currency or money, I'm referring to value, real value, not faked. It is only good for the world that more real value is created. Something valuable, which did not previously exist, was generated. No harm done. In fact, that's what we want.

*taxable income, which is not the same thing as income.

A person earning 25k in income has access to the standard deduction, reducing their taxable income to 13k. The total tax liability for that person is $1370. If they had a dependent child, the liability would be $0. If they were married, the liability would be $100. If they put $5k into a 401k, were unmarried, and had no children, the liability would be $800. If they put no money in an IRA, were unmarried, had no children, but were over the age of 65, the liability would be $1178. All of the above assumes no deductible property taxes or state taxes.

A single person earning $50k in income pays $4,370 (no IRA, no kids, no age exemption).

A single person earning $98k in income pays $14,900. With 1 dependent child, $12,930. and Married, $6,499. With $250/paycheck health insurance premiums paid through their employer.. $5,719... with a $5000 per year retirement plan contribution... $5119. Or with an $18,500 per year retirement plan contribution... $3500.

I understand, but for arguments sake I was making an argument that it is obscene how wealth is ditributed. Property only adds to wealth if it has value (taxable rent or other taxable revenue). You exactly made my point with thestatement of the more wealth you have, the more you create. Exactly why trickle down economics is a myth.
There is no reason why these wealthy should pay less tax, because of loopholes over their value then someone with lower value (that perhaps have less/no property).

I suspect in the usa the illusion is created that income tax (on wages) is a burden on the employees, instead of the employer. Is income tax (on wages) directly deducted and paid to the government when paying wages?
 
You spelled "predictable" wrong.
:lol:

What is the main reason though? fear for their voterbase? Blind loyalty to their "leader"? There is no common sense to not take his testimony seriously.
I also dont understand why for example @ryzno doesnt make a little more effort to try to look at the hearing as unbiased as possible.
 
:lol:

What is the main reason though? fear for their voterbase? Blind loyalty to their "leader"? There is no common sense to not take his testimony seriously.
I also dont understand why for example @ryzno doesnt make a little more effort to try to look at the hearing as unbiased as possible.
I already said why. And there is a thing called early release. Just cause he's been sentenced doesn't mean a thing.
 
I understand, but for arguments sake I was making an argument that it is obscene how wealth is ditributed.

It's not distributed. It's created, by individuals. There is no distribution. I understand that mathematically you can represent it as a distribution, but the word implies an overseer.

Property only adds to wealth if it has value (taxable rent or other taxable revenue). You exactly made my point with thestatement of the more wealth you have, the more you create. Exactly why trickle down economics is a myth.

"Trickle down" economics is just a derogatory term for the notion that reduced taxes on wealthy individuals and businesses will result in reinvestment. In other words, instead of taking it from them, let them invest and grow their business. And it's pretty hard to refute. I proved my point with the nonlinearity of economics.

I think what you're arguing is that instead of spending the money people will hold it and generate wealth from it. Right? But then... what is that money doing if it's generating wealth? It's working, it's reinvested, it's generating a profit. It's doing that very efficiently too, rather than the government form of that which is to take it and spend it very inefficiently.

There is no reason why these wealthy should pay less tax, because of loopholes over their value then someone with lower value (that perhaps have less/no property).

You mean short-term capital gains? Nobody pays less tax on short term capital gains than anyone else (percentage-wise). Every American pays 15% on short-term capital gains.

I suspect in the usa the illusion is created that income tax (on wages) is a burden on the employees, instead of the employer. Is income tax (on wages) directly deducted and paid to the government when paying wages?

It doesn't matter whether it's seen as a burden on employees or a burden on employer. The net result is less pay to the employee. For some people taxes are deducted on wages and sent to the government when paying wages, and for some people it is not. It depends on your employment scenario. In some cases you may be required to send quarterly tax payments yourself.

If you pretend for a moment that employees are paid as little as possible in a race to the bottom, with each prospective employee offering to take less pay than the previous employee, where employers have a large pool of prospective employees and can simply pick the one that offers to work for the least, then you might have a point. You were going to make whatever your after-tax take home was regardless of what taxes were, because the guy next to you is accepting as little take-home as he can as well.

If you pretend for a moment that employees are paid as much as possible in a race to the top, with each prospective employer offering to pay more than the previous prospective employer, where employers have a small pool of prospective employees and employees can simply pick the one that offers to pay the most, then of course I'm completely correct. Whatever you were going to make pre-tax was the most money you could extract out of an employer, and so if the government took fewer taxes, your take-home would be higher.

The reality of course is somewhere in between, and varies in different employment markets, and indeed across different national tax paradigms. An IT worker in the US under US employment laws is competing with an IT worker in India under Indian employment laws. A reduced employer burden on the US employee makes the US employee more attractive than they were. A reduced employee burden on the US employee makes them more attractive than they were.

Make it harder to be an employer by foisting regulations and taxes on employers and you make it harder for employees to find jobs, thereby reducing salaries and making outsourcing more attractive. Make it harder to be an employee by foisting extra taxes on employees and you make it harder for employees to find jobs, because outsourcing is more attractive. If you want to maximize employee pay you want to make it easy to be an employee and reduce taxes.
 
I'm not really sure where to put this, but Kelly Townsend (R-Arizona) called forced vaccinations Communist:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...st-idea/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.822bf484f8c9

I'm of two minds about this. While I don't think the government should force vaccinations, I do think it should probably deny services to anyone not vaccinated, examples being public schools or Medicaid/Medicare. Also, I feel like insurance companies should probably drop anyone from its policies if they refuse to be vaccinated too since it's just an unneeded burden on the system.

I'm also all for legal/civil action too. Say you refuse to vaccinate your kids and they get the measles. They then pass along that virus to a kid that can't be vaccinated due to health reasons. I feel like the parents of the kid that got the disease from the unvaccinated kid should be able to sue the parents that refused to vaccinate their kid. If it happens to result in the death of a person due to the unvaccinated person, I think you should be able to press charged as well.

It boggles my mind that in 2019 people still don't vaccinate their kids. In my mind, it borders on child abuse, but it's probably hard to actually prove that in a legal sense.
 
You mean short-term capital gains? Nobody pays less tax on short term capital gains than anyone else (percentage-wise). Every American pays 15% on short-term capital gains.



It doesn't matter whether it's seen as a burden on employees or a burden on employer. The net result is less pay to the employee. For some people taxes are deducted on wages and sent to the government when paying wages, and for some people it is not. It depends on your employment scenario. In some cases you may be required to send quarterly tax payments yourself.

If you pretend for a moment that employees are paid as little as possible in a race to the bottom, with each prospective employee offering to take less pay than the previous employee, where employers have a large pool of prospective employees and can simply pick the one that offers to work for the least, then you might have a point. You were going to make whatever your after-tax take home was regardless of what taxes were, because the guy next to you is accepting as little take-home as he can as well.

If you pretend for a moment that employees are paid as much as possible in a race to the top, with each prospective employer offering to pay more than the previous prospective employer, where employers have a small pool of prospective employees and employees can simply pick the one that offers to pay the most, then of course I'm completely correct. Whatever you were going to make pre-tax was the most money you could extract out of an employer, and so if the government took fewer taxes, your take-home would be higher.

The reality of course is somewhere in between, and varies in different employment markets, and indeed across different national tax paradigms. An IT worker in the US under US employment laws is competing with an IT worker in India under Indian employment laws. A reduced employer burden on the US employee makes the US employee more attractive than they were. A reduced employee burden on the US employee makes them more attractive than they were.

Make it harder to be an employer by foisting regulations and taxes on employers and you make it harder for employees to find jobs, thereby reducing salaries and making outsourcing more attractive. Make it harder to be an employee by foisting extra taxes on employees and you make it harder for employees to find jobs, because outsourcing is more attractive. If you want to maximize employee pay you want to make it easy to be an employee and reduce taxes.

Yes. In the situation of capital gains they should be taxed higher for higher gains.

Reduced tax to an employer does not prevent outsourcing (unless you reduce tax an minimum wage that matches outsourcing countries). Reducing tax will also not provide higher wages or increased employment, but will only maximize profits. If you do want to continue on that thought reducing income tax on the bottom 60% will benefit, that deficit in the goverment will then however need to be finacned by taxing the wealthy. My whole point being that the most wealthy benefit the most of the resources of a country and therefor should pay % more then the less wealthy.

I'm not really sure where to put this, but Kelly Townsend (R-Arizona) called forced vaccinations Communist:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...st-idea/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.822bf484f8c9

I'm of two minds about this. While I don't think the government should force vaccinations, I do think it should probably deny services to anyone not vaccinated, examples being public schools or Medicaid/Medicare. Also, I feel like insurance companies should probably drop anyone from its policies if they refuse to be vaccinated too since it's just an unneeded burden on the system.

I'm also all for legal/civil action too. Say you refuse to vaccinate your kids and they get the measles. They then pass along that virus to a kid that can't be vaccinated due to health reasons. I feel like the parents of the kid that got the disease from the unvaccinated kid should be able to sue the parents that refused to vaccinate their kid. If it happens to result in the death of a person due to the unvaccinated person, I think you should be able to press charged as well.

It boggles my mind that in 2019 people still don't vaccinate their kids. In my mind, it borders on child abuse, but it's probably hard to actually prove that in a legal sense.

I blame conspiracy theorists and their pseudoscience like flatearthers and also vegans.

edit: added comment to @Joey D
 
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I'm not really sure where to put this, but Kelly Townsend (R-Arizona) called forced vaccinations Communist:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...st-idea/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.822bf484f8c9

I'm of two minds about this. While I don't think the government should force vaccinations, I do think it should probably deny services to anyone not vaccinated, examples being public schools or Medicaid/Medicare. Also, I feel like insurance companies should probably drop anyone from its policies if they refuse to be vaccinated too since it's just an unneeded burden on the system.

I'm also all for legal/civil action too. Say you refuse to vaccinate your kids and they get the measles. They then pass along that virus to a kid that can't be vaccinated due to health reasons. I feel like the parents of the kid that got the disease from the unvaccinated kid should be able to sue the parents that refused to vaccinate their kid. If it happens to result in the death of a person due to the unvaccinated person, I think you should be able to press charged as well.

It boggles my mind that in 2019 people still don't vaccinate their kids. In my mind, it borders on child abuse, but it's probably hard to actually prove that in a legal sense.
Nor do I, but I doubt this was anything more than rabble rousing...largely because of one simple statement she made in a Facebook post:

"I read yesterday that the idea is being floated that if not enough people get vaccinated, then we are going to force them to."

Yeah...well...yesterday I read of a 15-year-old girl named Podkayne Fries living on Mars.

Edit:

What is the main reason though? fear for their voterbase? Blind loyalty to their "leader"? There is no common sense to not take his testimony seriously.
Sycophants gonna...er...sycophant.
 
Yes. In the situation of capital gains they should be taxed higher for higher gains.

Reduced tax to an employer does not prevent outsourcing (unless you reduce tax an minimum wage that matches outsourcing countries). Reducing tax will also not provide higher wages or increased employment, but will only maximize profits. If you do want to continue on that thought reducing income tax on the bottom 60% will benefit, that deficit in the goverment will then however need to be finacned by taxing the wealthy. My whole point being that the most wealthy benefit the most of the resources of a country and therefor should pay % more then the less wealthy.

You either missed my explanation about how employee wages are determined in the market, or you disagreed with it but didn't want to explain why.
 
You either missed my explanation about how employee wages are determined in the market, or you disagreed with it but didn't want to explain why.

I guess I missed it? You provided 2 scenarios? Dont the vast majority (60% that have 5% of wealth) fall into category one? Please elaborate what I missed?

Sycophants gonna...er...sycophant.

Had to look that up. But sucking up to their base or POTUS? One is much worse then the other.
 
I guess I missed it? You provided 2 scenarios? Dont the vast majority (60% that have 5% of wealth) fall into category one? Please elaborate what I missed?

No. That scenario describes people that hit minimum wage. That's less than 1% of employed people in the US. Everyone making above minimum wage is necessarily in between those two or is in the 2nd scenario.
 
No. That scenario describes people that hit minimum wage. That's less than 1% of employed people in the US. Everyone making above minimum wage is necessarily in between those two or is in the 2nd scenario.

I hardly believe that is less then 1%. You mean 99% of employed people are in a position to chose their employers?
 
I hardly believe that is less then 1%. You mean 99% of employed people are in a position to chose their employers?

100% of employed people are in a position to choose their employers. But people making minimum wage represent 1.3M (2014 data), and people employed represent 153M (2017 data).
 
100% of employed people are in a position to choose their employers. But people making minimum wage represent 1.3M (2014 data), and people employed represent 153M (2017 data).

You are very optimitic, but I dont believe the majority are in that position. I thought 20 million americans earn (near) minimum wage. And I hardly think they can chose their employer on the basis of the highest possible wage.
 
You are very optimitic, but I dont believe the majority are in that position. I thought 20 million americans earn (near) minimum wage. And I hardly think they can chose their employer on the basis of the highest possible wage.

Define "near".

I'm sure that if you're debating working for Chili's or Red Robin, and one of them offers you $10/hr instead of $9/hr, you pick the $10/hr (all else being equal of course).
 
100% of employed people are in a position to choose their employers. But people making minimum wage represent 1.3M (2014 data), and people employed represent 153M (2017 data).

I thought those figures only counted the 80M who are paid an hourly wage? In that case the 2017 figures show that 1.8M are on-or-below the federal minimum. It's harder to get data for people who take a salary for a contracted weekly number of hours but it's likely that some of those fall below the minimum hourly rate. That definitely happens in the UK, I know that's not related but the effects are surely the same in many countries.
 
Define "near".

I'm sure that if you're debating working for Chili's or Red Robin, and one of them offers you $10/hr instead of $9/hr, you pick the $10/hr (all else being equal of course).

I got the number from the pewsearch website:
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/01/04/5-facts-about-the-minimum-wage/

You were correct with the at or below. But you are dicounting a huge procentage that have trouble making a living wage at near the minimum wage (less then 10,10 dollars). And I am confident to say have difficulty to chose where they work on the basis of highest wage offered.

Edit: added data
 
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