America - The Official Thread

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If the goal is to help addicts, you detox them. Shipping them off to an island isn’t help, it’s dumping the problem elsewhere and hoping it corrects itself while also not caring if it offs itself as well. It’s a win-win for the origin location physically, but not morally.

It's slightly lame to say the goal is to "help addicts". That's a bit too fluffy and amorphous. The goal is more specifically like to stop the multifaceted hemorrhaging of sustainable society and livable cities on the diseased and degraded altar of drug addiction. That includes preventing more addiction, staunching the financial bloodletting of the citizenry to property damage, drug-related violence, theft and skyrocketing taxation driven by addiction and homelessness, as well as attention to the addicts themselves. The drugs are so powerful that rescue of the poor souls from its grip is nigh-on impossible. Serious research into electro-shock therapy, DNA modification, head transplant :rolleyes: or whatever else can be conjured is required to stop this menace to society. As for morality, there is no city in the world that has a higher moral ground than Seattle. Liberal, leftist and humanist to a fault, we wear our superior morality smugly on our sleeves, signaling loudly and often our virtue, piety and zealousness to the cause of universal human rights, open borders, fighting ICE, Trump and climate change. We are definitely holier-than-thou on the score of morality.
 
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A seasoned junkie who has stopped with heroin thanks to detox will also OD if he uses as much as his last hit before detox, your tolerance will be the same as going cold turkey.
The difference is the withdrawal symptoms are treated with medicine to wean junkies off the rush heroin provides & eliminate all the various symptoms that will begin within' 12 hours of the last hit, and peak at the 2-3 day mark, which is why many people immediately relapse to kill the pain withdrawal causes.
When people with a heroin use disorder seek out formal treatment, medications may be used to reduce or eliminate the symptoms of withdrawal, making the detoxification process more comfortable. For instance, a person may be prescribed buprenorphine to treat the symptoms of withdrawal from opioids like heroin. In some instances, it can be used as a long-term maintenance drug.

Buprenorphine classifies as an opioid, but it generally doesn’t induce euphoria, and it causes less physical dependence than heroin. It’s a partial opioid agonist, so it does work on the same receptors as heroin, but it has less of a potential for misuse.

Buprenorphine may be given in combination with naloxone in the drug Suboxone. The naloxone works to deter abuse of the drug since it will knock buprenorphine off the opioid receptors in the brain if abused. Drugs that consist of naloxone and buprenorphine include Suboxone, Zubsolv, and Bunavail.
Most people, even those who are somewhat of a living skeleton will survive going cold turkey, as long as they eat and drink something. The emotional instability can be solved by having people watching the junkie.
Eating and drinking alone isn't going to cure all of these physical effects:
  • Nausea
  • Vomiting
  • Goosebumps
  • Bone aches
  • Abdominal cramping
  • Cold sweats
  • Diarrhea
  • Increased tearing
  • Runny nose
  • Yawning
Coming off something like heroin specifically, is described as like having the flu. I don't know about you, but I don't believe the flu is treated by just keeping the body nourished. Junkies will still go through these effects and will resort to relapsing to "cure" themselves if they're trying cold turkey, i.e., without any medical support.

Having people just watch a junkie go cold turkey also does nothing. In fact, it's rather cruel because a junkie will still be going through not only the physical effects with no medical help, but the emotional effects:
  • Insomnia
  • Tremors
  • Restlessness
  • Anxiety
  • Cravings
  • Agitation
  • Tremors
  • Difficulty concentrating
  • Fatigue
  • Difficulty finding pleasure
Again, it's why 45% (or basically half) of all people trying to go "cold turkey" off heroin alone, die. They're trying to cure the withdrawal effects through suicide or the drug itself. It is the entire point of detox.

So when you make this statement:
Why not round them up and let them go cold turkey in a place without any available drugs?
You're essentially saying, "Hey, you're about to go through at least 10 days of hell, and there's a good chance half of you will commit suicide to fight the withdrawal effects."

The irony is thinking any of these survivors will be "healthy people who can be part of society again" after what they go through.
 
They are? :confused: :odd:

I'm curious, have you actually spent any considerable length of time in the U.S.?

They're not normalized, but they are entirely too frequent.


No I havent. But every news cycle there is "thoughts and prayers" and nothing changes year after year. I am not trying to start a gundebate (again), but compared to europe such incidents happen too frequent and no real reaction from the whitehouse to it at all. My conclusion is that the whitehouse accepts the current situation and frequency.

The NRA are still somehow propagating that more guns is the solution to gunviolence and half of the nation seems to agree.
 
No I havent. But every news cycle there is "thoughts and prayers" and nothing changes year after year. I am not trying to start a gundebate (again), but compared to europe such incidents happen too frequent and no real reaction from the whitehouse to it at all. My conclusion is that the whitehouse accepts the current situation and frequency.

The NRA are still somehow propagating that more guns is the solution to gunviolence and half of the nation seems to agree.
The White House isn't the United States and the NRA isn't the United States. The pushback against both of those entities by ~half of the country ought to be indicative of that.
 
The White House isn't the United States and the NRA isn't the United States. The pushback against both of those entities by ~half of the country ought to be indicative of that.

The whitehouse is the majority (voted through electoral college). The Republican party supports the NRA and visa versa. And I assume the republican party represent about half of the USA. So my assumptions are not that off. However I realise there is nuance, but that doesnt fit in a short Forum post.
 
No I havent. But every news cycle

The news covers what they think will get eyeballs on their content, I wouldn't rely on them to make a widespread judgement about much.

but compared to europe

It's odd how even though Europe does have guns, these things rarely happen. Now, why do you think that would be? Perhaps it's because they've focused on the why more than the how?

such incidents happen too frequent and no real reaction from the whitehouse to it at all.

The White House doesn't give much of a reaction to anything, it's why we're $6 Trillion in debt.
 
The whitehouse is the majority (voted through electoral college). The Republican party supports the NRA and visa versa. And I assume the republican party represent about half of the USA. So my assumptions are not that off. However I realise there is nuance, but that doesnt fit in a short Forum post.
A difference of ~163,600,000 people is "not far off"? Count aloud to that number and let me know when you're done if you still think it's "not far off".

Generalizations only help in the heads of those making them.
 
No I havent. But every news cycle there is "thoughts and prayers" and nothing changes year after year. I am not trying to start a gundebate (again), but compared to europe such incidents happen too frequent and no real reaction from the whitehouse to it at all. My conclusion is that the whitehouse accepts the current situation and frequency.

The NRA are still somehow propagating that more guns is the solution to gunviolence and half of the nation seems to agree.
They do?
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/18/us/politics/trump-bump-stocks-ban.html
WASHINGTON — The Trump administration on Tuesday issued a new rule banning bump stocks, the attachments that enable semiautomatic rifles to fire in sustained, rapid bursts and that a gunman used to massacre 58 people and wound hundreds of others at a Las Vegas concert in October 2017.
 
The news covers what they think will get eyeballs on their content, I wouldn't rely on them to make a widespread judgement about much.



It's odd how even though Europe does have guns, these things rarely happen. Now, why do you think that would be? Perhaps it's because they've focused on the why more than the how?



The White House doesn't give much of a reaction to anything, it's why we're $6 Trillion in debt.

I dont want to start another gundiscussion in this thread, but Europe doesnt have a gunculture similar to the USA. Gunownership isnt protected as a right and the NRA doesnt lobby in european politics.

That the whitehouse doesnt react is not true. The current president is giving a lot of reactions (tweets) daily. Primarily focused on border security, taxcuts and blaming the opposition for basically everything. Also the current administration keeps going to these NRA conventions, but never adresses any resolve to gunviolence.


That was a good step in the right direction in reaction to the Vegas incident in 2017, yet no action to the various shootings in 2018/2019. We are already 2 years on.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States_in_2019
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States_in_2018

A difference of ~163,600,000 people is "not far off"? Count aloud to that number and let me know when you're done if you still think it's "not far off".

Generalizations only help in the heads of those making them.

I didnt mean to generalise. I am adressing the US goverment as a whole, which was voted in by the majority of US citizens (electoral college. I am fully aware that there is opposition. Yet the goverment represents the whole of the country to the outside if you like it or not. But for future reference I will try to acknowledge that there is a minority that opposes certain views of the current government.
 
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That was a good step in the right direction in reaction to the Vegas incident in 2017, yet no action to the various shootings in 2018/2019. We are already 2 years on.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States_in_2019
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States_in_2018

Why do you seem to be of the opinion that each incident needs a government-wide reaction? Crimes happen, laws get broken, people get murdered. Each incident doesn't result in a reaction.
 
Why do you seem to be of the opinion that each incident needs a government-wide reaction? Crimes happen, laws get broken, people get murdered. Each incident doesn't result in a reaction.

An individual incident does not need a government wide reaction. I admit I shouldnt have focused on mass shootings and guns again, which we have debated over many times. But the most recent posted was motivated by antisemitism and not an isolated incident.

edit: I was mistaken, Trump himself did adress the shooting.
https://www.vox.com/2019/4/27/18520810/trump-poway-synagogue-shooting-response-green-bay
 
Also the current administration keeps going to these NRA conventions, but never adresses any resolve to gunviolence.
I just posted a resolve from 5 months ago.
That was a good step in the right direction in reaction to the Vegas incident in 2017, yet no action to the various shootings in 2018/2019. We are already 2 years on.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States_in_2019
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States_in_2018
2 years on seems like a subtle way of saying, "too little, too late".
 
I just posted a resolve from 5 months ago.

2 years on seems like a subtle way of saying, "too little, too late".

That resolve came after an incident in 2017. But I admitted I jumped the gun. Trump did adress the incident after all. (see above edit)

Not really "too little, too late". I dont think the incidents in 2018/2019 involved bumpstocks.
 
I dont want to start another gundiscussion in this thread, but Europe doesnt have a gunculture similar to the USA. Gunownership isnt protected as a right and the NRA doesnt lobby in european politics.

I don't think you understood my point so I'll rephrase it.

Europe doesn't seem to have as many people wanting and willing to kill other people, why do you think that is?
 
Europe doesn't seem to have as many people wanting and willing to kill other people, why do you think that is?

For the past few hundred years, Europe has endured bloody revolutions and two ruinous world wars. This continuous negative experience has a cumulative effect on people's willingness for more of the same. America on the other, has had a great deal of fun and success using violence to tame a continent and fight foreign wars successfully from a safe distance. We have evolved on separate paths.
 
For the past few hundred years, Europe has endured bloody revolutions and two ruinous world wars. This continuous negative experience has a cumulative effect on people's willingness for more of the same. America on the other, has had a great deal of fun and success using violence to tame a continent and fight foreign wars successfully from a safe distance. We have evolved on separate paths.

I wanna try! America has too much emphasis on fame as a means to a fulfilling life, and so we have people who seek infamy as a means of being remembered.

Oh, I'm gonna go again. We repress sexuality more than violence in America. Children are exposed to violence at an early age, and fast women are denigrated as morally bankrupt. As a result we have a lot of boys who are used to watching heads roll and who aren't getting any.

Ok ok, time number 3. American might just be the most religious nation with widespread freedom. Strict religious upbringing teaches two things - inflexibility and dehumanizing. Those who do not live your chosen lifestyle, old and young, are worthy of eternal torture in a lake of fire. And almost everyone is not living the life you've chosen as the right one.

Oooh... how about the American longstanding stigma against seeking mental help.
 
I wanna try! America has too much emphasis on fame as a means to a fulfilling life, and so we have people who seek infamy as a means of being remembered.

Oh, I'm gonna go again. We repress sexuality more than violence in America. Children are exposed to violence at an early age, and fast women are denigrated as morally bankrupt. As a result we have a lot of boys who are used to watching heads roll and who aren't getting any.

Ok ok, time number 3. American might just be the most religious nation with widespread freedom. Strict religious upbringing teaches two things - inflexibility and dehumanizing. Those who do not live your chosen lifestyle, old and young, are worthy of eternal torture in a lake of fire. And almost everyone is not living the life you've chosen as the right one.

Oooh... how about the American longstanding stigma against seeking mental help.
Not bad. @Northstar 's question was so good it admits a number of answers.
I'll add another - the cult of individualism - which places the individual and his identity, freedom, needs and desires above those of all others including family and community.
 
Not bad. @Northstar 's question was so good it admits a number of answers.
I'll add another - the cult of individualism - which places the individual and his identity, freedom, needs and desires above those of all others including family and community.

I'll go again. The constant calls for law changes, and even constitutional changes, in the wake of individual events of violence seems to encourage that violence as a means of making your mark. This one is part of my infamy example above, but it specifically has to do with becoming famous as the person who finally broke the 2nd amendment.
 
I'll go again. The constant calls for law changes, and even constitutional changes, in the wake of individual events of violence seems to encourage that violence as a means of making your mark. This one is part of my infamy example above, but it specifically has to do with becoming famous as the person who finally broke the 2nd amendment.
We keep discussing the 2nd Amendment, yet people always misinterpret it. When they said "A Right to Bear Arms" it meant just that. You can have a pair of bear forelimbs. If you die as a result of attempting to obtain your pair then that's on you.
 
We keep discussing the 2nd Amendment, yet people always misinterpret it. When they said "A Right to Bear Arms" it meant just that. You can have a pair of bear forelimbs. If you die as a result of attempting to obtain your pair then that's on you.

I always thought it was for sleeveless shirts.
 
I always thought it was for sleeveless shirts.

That damn 18th century autocorrect.

I wanna try! America has too much emphasis on fame as a means to a fulfilling life, and so we have people who seek infamy as a means of being remembered.

Oh, I'm gonna go again. We repress sexuality more than violence in America. Children are exposed to violence at an early age, and fast women are denigrated as morally bankrupt. As a result we have a lot of boys who are used to watching heads roll and who aren't getting any.

Ok ok, time number 3. American might just be the most religious nation with widespread freedom. Strict religious upbringing teaches two things - inflexibility and dehumanizing. Those who do not live your chosen lifestyle, old and young, are worthy of eternal torture in a lake of fire. And almost everyone is not living the life you've chosen as the right one.

Oooh... how about the American longstanding stigma against seeking mental help.

I'd argue that the internet has turned #1, 2, and 3 to 11 on the amplifier while also bringing together those that do need mental help together in the worst ways possible.
 
Whelp, it lasted around 27 hours but I've once again had my fill of self-rightrous, self-important Seattle ****-stirrers.
You would think being from a city where they invented grunge a genre that essentially prides on looking homeless he would be more favorable to them.
 
You would think being from a city where they invented grunge a genre that essentially prides on looking homeless he would be more favorable to them.
Twas grunge that brung them there. I had a loser roommate in the 90's, that's where he went.
 
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