America - The Official Thread

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Admittedly, I have a deep and personal relationship with Jews. My family was new to a mid-size (pop. 100,000) Texas city in the early 50's. Mother was agnostic, father gone most of the time, and the city solidly Baptist, not especially welcoming of outsiders. Mother had a Jewish boyfriend in her pre-war youth, and soon became fast friends with a Jewish family who ran a local Army surplus store. Their son Barry became my best friend. Later in Seattle, I had another Jewish best friend, and much later yet had a non-observant Jewish girlfriend for 20 years. Some of the Jews I have known have been very, very intelligent. All have been hard-working. That's all I really know about the subject. However, I believe as a fact that ~20 years ago, teams of "Israeli art students" were crawling over numerous American cities seeking any and every means to gain entry into federal buildings. I encountered them, and so did other people I know who lived and worked in the downtown area adjacent to the Federal Building. My understanding is that the US has a very special relationship to Israel. Trump appears to be extremely supportive of this relationship.

In other news, Democrats are blowing their minds with frustration over refusal of Trump administration officials and ex-officials to comply with subpoenas and orders to appear for questioning in front of Democratically controlled Congressional committees. They are now on the cusp of impeaching the President. They are torn between those rabid for impeachment from safe districts, and those more cautious and newly elected from more competitive districts. Leader Pelosi is cautious and smart to avoid openly supporting impeachment - yet.
 
Eunos_Cosmo
I'm sure a video titled:

"Here's Your PROOF, "The Left" Has Gone COMPLETELY Insane"

...is going to be objective. :lol:
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so because people tend to make clickbait video titles mean that research data which are presented are not objective?

Part about "unmoderated leftist echochamber" aka Twitter is his own take on the cause, but certainly possible. People get radicalised by unmoderated far-left ideas on Twitter then vote for more far-left democrat representatives.

Dotini
My understanding is that the US has a very special relationship to Israel. Trump appears to be extremely supportive of this relationship.
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I also had this feeling so I'm surprised to hear about supposedly increased attacks on jews. I always roll my eyes when I read some crazy comments on youtube about jews being behind every problem, it's beyond stupid.
 
novcze
so because people tend to make clickbait video titles mean that research data which are presented are not objective?

Part about "unmoderated leftist echochamber" aka Twitter is his own take on the cause, but certainly possible. People get radicalised by unmoderated far-left ideas on Twitter then vote for more far-left democrat representatives.



I also had this feeling so I'm surprised to hear about supposedly increased attacks on jews. I always roll my eyes when I read some crazy comments on youtube about jews being behind every problem, it's beyond stupid.
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It's the sign of a normal functioning economy. When in doubt, blame Jews for all problems, including ones they couldn't possibly be the cause of.
 
Vegard
Seriously though, is there any evidence that anti-semitism is on the rise? Or is it the case, as I've seen it argued, that there's a spike in anti-semitic incidents whenever Israel commits atrocities or grossly abuses its political power?
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I don't know, and frankly I don't believe it can be known.

It's doubtful that there's ever been a meaningful decline in rhetorical and physical manifestations of anti-Semitism, and it's become much easier to observe those spewing the rhetoric as well as to be aware of acts of violence which seem to be motivated by hatred toward Jewish people in the internet and social media age, so it's easy to see how one reluctant to think critically and who simply wishes to point fingers could come to such a conclusion.

novcze
so because people tend to make clickbait video titles mean that research data which are presented are not objective?
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Yes. Propagation of a narrative through the use of pandering language suggests that said language isn't limited to the title of a particular work but that it's also used therein.

There's a fine, often indistinguishable line between being "woke" and being played like a delusional fiddle.

novcze
People get radicalised by unmoderated far-left ideas on Twitter then vote for more far-left democrat representatives.
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*cough*

A document posted shortly before the shooting and widely credited to the suspect, indicates the author is steeped in the alt-right's toxic culture.

...

The written document was posted on the extreme message board 8chan shortly before the attack began on Friday. It has been called a "manifesto" but that term rather grandly overstates a confused jumble of thoughts and misinformation which rambles on for 74 poorly-written pages.

...

At the start of the document and throughout, the author refers to a conspiracy theory central to the new brand of far-right extremism springing from the alt-right: that there is a grand plan to eliminate the "white race" through a combination of immigration and interbreeding.

It's a fiction that plays into the paranoia of the hardcore alt-right, and relies on false assumptions about fixed, sharply genetically defined racial groups, bogus and distorted statistics, and the racist "one-drop" theory from early 20th Century America: the idea that any amount of racial interbreeding negates white racial heritage.
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TexRex
Yes. Propagation of a narrative through the use of pandering language suggests that said language isn't limited to the title of a particular work but that it's also used therein.
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Who said anything about language used, I asked if presented data e.g. research from Adam Bonica are not objective because guy is using clickbait title. Anything else is of course his opinion, including his Twitter theory.

TexRex
*cough*
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what this have to do with anything, 8 chan may work as echochamber but for limited number of people (when compared to Twitter) so it doesn't influence ideological position of democratic or republican representatives/candidates as much.


Don't get me wrong, I don't have any personal interest in this beyond entertainment, but you seem to be very decided he is wrong, so maybe you should tell your opinion? Maybe people naturally lean into more lefty left positions from the centre and vote more lefty left democratic candidates?
 
novcze
Who said anything about language used,
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I did...and so did you when you referred to the clickbait title.

"Clickbait" suggests that the title is intended to motivate people to click the video and generate views, specifically by those who are perceptive to the narrative espoused.

novcze
I asked if presented data e.g. research from Adam Bonica are not objective because guy is using clickbait title.
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I saw and I answered. Repeating a question because you don't like the answer isn't particularly useful.

The use of language that panders to those with specific positions--including in the form of a clickbait title--demonstrates a lack of objectivity. One expects contents to be consistent with that clickbait title and "data" is only useful insofar as it supports a particular narrative.

novcze
what this have to do with anything, 8 chan may work as echochamber but for limited number of people (when compared to Twitter)
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"What does this have to do with anything?" he asks, and proceeds to describe precisely what it has to do with something.

You're quibbling over intensity--which is to say the number of individuals engaged in such a manner on these respective platforms--when that intensity cannot be defined. Not everyone active Twitter is engaged politically, and I suspect the same is true of 4chan and 8chan. What's more, Twitter isn't exclusively "Lefty McLefterson" as you suggest.

novcze
it doesn't influence ideological position of democratic or republican representatives/candidates
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:odd:

I quoted...

novcze
People get radicalised by unmoderated far-left ideas on Twitter then vote for more far-left democrat representatives.
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...which, granted, does mention representatives, but speaks to the supposed motivations of people, not said representatives.

novcze
Don't get me wrong, I don't have any personal interest in this beyond entertainment, but you seem to be very decided he is wrong, so maybe you should tell your opinion?
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The fervor with which you're engaging me suggests you're more interested than you say.

My opinion, which I'm stating for the third time now, is that the video title bucks the notion of objectivity and I don't have any reason to suspect the contents of the video don't do the same.

I don't think he's right or wrong and have said absolutely nothing of that, nor do I intend to without information to support or rebuff what he's said; rather I responded to your question regarding supposed objectivity.

novcze
Maybe people naturally lean into more lefty left positions from the centre and vote more lefty left democratic candidates?
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Based on what?

DDastardly00
I guess it was so hilarious she apologized, huh.
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Public figure.
 
TexRex
Public figure.
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Right, which= fake apology. Because she actually is a Jew hater. Though what she said is creepy, her actions speak even louder than her words and her tweets are just flat out, gross, so have fun defending her. Her "all about the benjamins" comment is classic anti-Semitism, which in the US isn't anything new. Henry Ford said the same thing back in 1927. Henry Ford was an Anti-Semite. Henry Ford was also wrong. If you are going to defend her then know you are also, by association, defending Neo-Nazis, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei and the KKK who all spew the same hateful crap as Rep Omar, they just do it without all of the political doublespeak.
 
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DDastardly00
Right, which= fake apology. Because she actually is a Jew hater. Though what she said is creepy, her actions speak even louder than her words and her tweets are just flat out, gross, so have fun defending her. Her "all about the benjamins" comment is classic anti-Semitism, which in the US isn't anything new. Henry Ford said the same thing back in 1927. Henry Ford was an Anti-Semite. Henry Ford was aslo wrong. If you are going to defend her then know you are also, by association, defending Neo-Nazis, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei and the KKK who all spew the same hateful crap as Rep Omar, they just do it without all of the political doublespeak.
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Is this a serious comment?

Also, what exactly are her 'Jew-hating actions', if you are going to distinguish them from her words?
 
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Is being critical of the actions of a nation considered racist now? And the same with people dropping gobs of money lobbying?
To my point, I dont see quoting a song about money, to point out the idea that they are spending money on lobbying to make money on the back end as anti semitic.
 
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DDastardly00
:rolleyes:


Deleting tweets (USA Today)

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...hat-drew-charges-of-anti-semitism/2989404002/

Apologizing for the Deleted tweets (NBC)

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/co...r-accused-sending-anti-semitic-tweets-n969946

Being rebuked by the Democratic part and Pelosi (NY Times)
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/11/opinion/ilhan-omar-antisemitism.html


So what exactly are you disagreeing with here?
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She criticized the influence of lobbyist money in American politics. Do you think lobbyist money should be more or less influential in American politics? Have any other evidence she is a Jew hater? Any jew-hating legislation for instance? She is a legislator. That would be an action. For the record, I don't think she is a Jew hater. What I mean by that is that I don't think she hates Jews. I haven't seen any evidence to support that she hates Jews. I think she is a critic of Israeli (remember, Israel is a country, not a religion, as you said) policy. Is it ok to be critical of a foreign country's policies?
 
DDastardly00
Contents of post #21070 omitted pending possible moderation, re: "Personal attack." Text may be edited in at a later time.
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Just...wow.

Okay, so yeah, maybe the apology was fake, or maybe it was sincere but coerced. It's hard to know with politicians.

What did she say/do that's so reprehensible? Why is it? What makes it one thing and not another?

Surely you understand that the United States' relationship with Israel represents an obscene amount of money (or "Benjamins" as it were)?

Since when does asking if/why something is anti-Semitism constitute defense of anti-Semitic rhetoric and/or actions?
 
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ezgif-4-c7261178cff2.gif
 
When you're marching with your best mates, at night, with torches, chanting in unison, "JEWS WILL NOT REPLACE US", there's a good chance you're a certified Jew Hater

Omar, I don't believe, has done this.
 
Rallywagon
David Duke also supports Trump. Is he anti semitic as well because of it? I mean, if you can come up with evidence where she said "I hate Jews" then hey, you got it. But being critical of Israel and/or lobbying isn't antisemitic.
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David Duke is anti Semitic because he holds anti-Semitic beliefs, it has nothing to do with Trump.

Being critical of Isarel is one thing, spewing anti-Jewish sentiment is another. If it was so innocent, then why did it stir up a hornets nest? Why did she issue a public apology? Why did she publically apologize to Jewish groups in a conference call? Why did her own party publically rebuke her? Why did Nancy Pelosi condemn her?
 
DDastardly00
If it was so innocent, then why did it stir up a hornets nest?
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TexRex
The Omar situation is really kind of hilarious, but what's funnier still is Republicans pointing to Democrats' own addresses to the congresswoman and saying "even they think it's wrong"...literally the only time they put stock in what Democrats say.

It's also worth noting that anything can be found offensive when one is looking to be offended, and people tend to turn into bloodhounds when it comes to the remarks of those who represent "the enemy".
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That doesn't answer any of my questions and it doesn't do anything to further this discussion. Why bother posting if you have nothing of value to add? Perhaps you can try commenting on this:

Here is what Nancy Pelosi had to say about it:


Speaker Nancy Pelosi and other Democratic leadership's statement on Rep. Ilhan Omar' comments:

“Anti-Semitism must be called out, confronted and condemned whenever it is encountered, without exception.

“We are and will always be strong supporters of Israel in Congress because we understand that our support is based on shared values and strategic interests. Legitimate criticism of Israel’s policies is protected by the values of free speech and democratic debate that the United States and Israel share. But Congresswoman Omar’s use of anti-Semitic tropes and prejudicial accusations about Israel’s supporters is deeply offensive. We condemn these remarks and we call upon Congresswoman Omar to immediately apologize for these hurtful comments.

“As Democrats and as Americans, the entire Congress must be fully engaged in denouncing and rejecting all forms of hatred, racism, prejudice and discrimination wherever they are encountered.”

Other reaction:

Gov Tim Walz:
"Anti-Semitic language is never acceptable. We as a nation need to continue to foster acceptance. I'm encouraged that Representative Omar says she is taking this opportunity to engage in meaningful conversations with the Jewish community and her collegues."

Sen. Amy Klobuchar:
“Anti-Semitic language should have no place in Congress or our country. Apologizing was the right thing to do.”

Sen. Tina Smith:
“I’m glad Representative Omar apologized. Anti-Semitic rhetoric is never acceptable and should be condemned. Words have consequences, and it’s important to take responsibility for the hurt they cause.”

Rep. Pete Stauber:
“I am and always will be a strong supporter of Israel as they are our closest ally in the Middle East. It disheartens me that my colleague would use anti-Semitic remarks, which have no place in our society, let alone in Congress.”

Minnesota GOP Chair Jennifer Carnahan:
"The level of hate and continuous anti-Semitic behavior from Congresswoman Ilhan Omar is scary and irresponsible. While House Democrat leaders sent out a statement denouncing Rep. Omar's acts, that is not enough. She must be pulled from the House Foreign Affairs Committee immediately. Rep. Omar represents the city of St. Louis Park, located in Minnesota's Fifth Congressional District, which is home to the largest Jewish community in the state. Presidential Candidate Amy Klobuchar, Senator Tina Smith and Reps. Dean Phillips, Collin Peterson surely must stand up to this overt hatred and anti-Semitism."

House Majority Leader Ryan Winkler, D-Golden Valley:
“Anti-Semitism is at its heart a conspiracy theory which falsely claims Jews exercise undue and malevolent influence at the expense of others. As leaders, it is important for us to stand up to anti-Semitism and show solidarity with the Jewish community. Let me add my voice to those from across the political spectrum, including within progressive circles in the Jewish community, in condemning Congresswoman Ilhan Omar’s latest tweet. I urge her to work closely with our local Jewish community to combat the anti-Semitic tropes that have infected our political discourse, and to be a leader for all her constituents. And I urge all parties to engage in serious and thoughtful debate on the issues important to us, rather than seeking political gain out of this controversy.”

Rep. Jim Hagedorn:
“I condemn anti-Semitism in all forms. My position is clear. I support a military and foreign policy of Peace through Strength, and that includes strong ties with Israel. Certainly, Israel is our closest and most important ally in the Middle East. I support continued close U.S.-Israel relations. And, as an ardent defender of religious freedom, I stand with our Jewish friends, both here and abroad.”

Rep. Angie Craig:
“As members of Congress, we should never engage in rhetoric or actions that attack people based on their faith. We have a responsibility to hold ourselves to a higher standard, reflecting the values of those who elected us, and that includes proactively educating ourselves to ensure we do not engage in divisive rhetoric in any form. I am and will continue to be a strong supporter of a strong and safe Israel as the only democracy in the Middle East.”
 
DDastardly00
That doesn't answer any of my questions and it doesn't do anything to further this discussion.
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Surely you jest. Why do you expect anyone to answer your questions when you refuse to answer theirs?

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/america-the-official-thread.54029/page-702#post-12744869

Eunos_Cosmo
True opinion: I think Israel does some bad things.

Anti-semitic or no?
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https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/america-the-official-thread.54029/page-703#post-12745883

TexRex
What did she say/do that's so reprehensible? Why is it? What makes it one thing and not another?

Surely you understand that the United States' relationship with Israel represents an obscene amount of money (or "Benjamins" as it were)?

Since when does asking if/why something is anti-Semitism constitute defense of anti-Semitic rhetoric and/or actions?
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