America - The Official Thread

[Dogwolf77]

13 years ago there were about 85,000 a month, a figure which decreased over following years. How have border forces been able to completely forget how to deal with the numbers?

Say what? Where on earth did that number come from? Way lower than reported by border authorities.

Even if your number is spot on, don’t you think that’s excessive amount ? Oh man....

If you say no, you’re either stoned, or certifiably insane. What is 85k over the next 20 years? It’s actually north of 200k per month. Unacceptable by any country’s ability to support.

How about you, where do you hail from? Is it also jammed up with homeless people everywhere who’s only objective is to stay alive and if caught, 3 meals a day in prison with clothes and a bed?

Crazy.... I just cannot believe this is a two sided argument.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Say what? Where on earth did that number come from? Way lower than reported by border authorities.

In fiscal year 2006 there were 1,071,972 arrests of undocumented immigrants in the multi-state border area, according to Customs and Border Protection (CBP).

89,331, I stand corrected.

Even if your number is spot on, don’t you think that’s excessive amount ? Oh man....

That's not the question, @ryzno was saying that the USA can't cope with handling 100,000 a month at the border. I was asking why not given that the number isn't historically unusual.

If you say no, you’re either stoned, or certifiably insane.

Oh, right.

What is 85k over the next 20 years? It’s actually north of 200k per month.

That question makes no sense, nor do your figures. 85k is 85k unless you're suggesting a specific modifier.

Unacceptable by any country’s ability to support.

What's to support? Surely you understand that the USA has a legal system for rejecting immigration requests? I think you're getting all kinds of applications and results confused with one another.

How about you, where do you hail from? Is it also jammed up with homeless people everywhere who’s only objective is to stay alive and if caught, 3 meals a day in prison with clothes and a bed?

Being homeless isn't a crime here, so the question is moot.

 

[Dogwolf77]

89,331, I stand corrected.



That's not the question, @ryzno was saying that the USA can't cope with handling 100,000 a month at the border. I was asking why not given that the number isn't historically unusual.



Oh, right.



That question makes no sense, nor do your figures. 85k is 85k unless you're suggesting a specific modifier.



What's to support? Surely you understand that the USA has a legal system for rejecting immigration requests? I think you're getting all kinds of applications and results confused with one another.



Being homeless isn't a crime here, so the question is moot.

True, it’s a horrible condition. One that we all should be thankful not to have to endure. Obama and Clinton were 100% right when they fought to stop the flow of illegal immigrants. Why can’t Trump follow their lead? Why can’t he shut that nonsense down like they proposed to do?

On support, here’s a neat thought to contemplate: Waste to fresh water management. Our sewer system itself cannot handle the input and effectively treat water for recirculation. One average person produces 14oz of Solid waste per day, not urine, solid. Our facilities are barely keeping up in treating. Most metropolitan areas, water from the tap is not safe to drink and to costly to remedy the problem. Now add your 85 thousand pounds per day of additional brown waste to what we have now. And keep on adding to it month after month. Make sense??? Sound smart??

I should pause just to imagine how big of a mountain that would be in ten years.

Next, we’ll dive into dumpsters. Let’s find out how much trash we can generate here in the land o plenty.

By the way, there’s a lot of cool information out there including podcasts that discuss sewers and water treatment. Like the gigantic fatbergs they find from laundry detergent and wet wipes etc. crazy stuff below our feet.

 

[UKMikey]

I also don't live in America but if I read this graph correctly, the immigrant population hasn't risen over around 15% of the total population for over a hundred years. If the number of Mexicans is rising, so too is the number of native born US citizens. This makes the "mountain" of immigrant poo sound like a small foothill compared to that of indigenous citizens to me, which'd make birth control a much bigger priority than border patrol.

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/art...-immigrants-and-immigration-united-states#Now

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Idk guys, the US is pretty full to the brim. We're apparently the 146th most densely populated country on earth. And because we have such a small economy, I don't think we can handle 0.03% of our population attempting to enter our country. It's really a bigger problem and a more difficult challenge than the united states has ever faced.

 

[Danoff]

Idk guys, the US is pretty full to the brim. We're apparently the 146th most densely populated country on earth. And because we have such a small economy, I don't think we can handle 0.03% of our population attempting to enter our country. It's really a bigger problem and a more difficult challenge than the united states has ever faced.

Heh...

It's not a matter of the economy being able to "handle" it either. We benefit economically from cheap labor (and so do the laborers). In fact, the very same people who complain about immigration and not being able to "afford" all this cheap labor are the same people who complain about outsourcing due to the fact that the US lacks cheap labor. <- that's gonna have to do for a facepalm emoji I guess.

Edit:

I mean I am aware of the fact that it is a consistent position to not want cheap labor to exist (anywhere) so that people have to be paid more for the labor. But that's not a winning economic position, it just decreases quality of life (for everyone) because everything is more expensive and people who need the work can't get it. What I'm frustrated by is the notion that outsourcing is a problem because the money "leaves" the country and that we should be buying american and spending here and whatnot, and yet the people coming to solve that "problem" are seen as a problem precisely because they're coming to solve it.

Edit 2:

Apparently I can keep going on this. The other thing that absolutely blows my mind (both with outsourcing and immigration, ie: they took er jerbs) is that the US is that unemployment is not a problem and has not been a problem for a long time.

 

[MatskiMonk]

On support, here’s a neat thought to contemplate: Waste to fresh water management. Our sewer system itself cannot handle the input and effectively treat water for recirculation. One average person produces 14oz of Solid waste per day, not urine, solid. Our facilities are barely keeping up in treating. Most metropolitan areas, water from the tap is not safe to drink and to costly to remedy the problem. Now add your 85 thousand pounds per day of additional brown waste to what we have now. And keep on adding to it month after month. Make sense??? Sound smart??

I should pause just to imagine how big of a mountain that would be in ten years.

So roughly speaking, if your infrastructure is due to collapse in 4 years time because of immigration, it will, instead collapse in 5 years time if net migration hit zero tomorrow. This isn't a problem caused by immigration, it's a problem with planning and investment.

Next, we’ll dive into dumpsters. Let’s find out how much trash we can generate here in the land o plenty.

By the way, there’s a lot of cool information out there including podcasts that discuss sewers and water treatment. Like the gigantic fatbergs they find from laundry detergent and wet wipes etc. crazy stuff below our feet.

And again, this isn't caused by immigration, it's a problem sure, but your population will grow anyway and it grows because of the birthrate far more quickly... as a planet this is a problem, we all have to deal with it.

 

[Joey D]

Obama and Clinton were 100% right when they fought to stop the flow of illegal immigrants. Why can’t Trump follow their lead? Why can’t he shut that nonsense down like they proposed to do?

Trump can follow their lead, it doesn't make it right though. Also, the way Trump is going about it is illegal. He can't implement tariffs whenever he feels like it, the Constitution doesn't give him that power. Tariffs need to come from Congress and given how much they hated the thought of Mexican tariffs I'm guessing that they'd never pass that resolution.

Also while tariffs, in general, are bad, tariffs with Mexico are especially bad for the US economy. We have a strong flow of goods between our two nations. Both nations need each other to have a prosperous economy.

There's also the whole elephant in the room that much of our agricultural industry relies on migrant workers. If a farm can no longer pay a couple of bucks an hour under the table to a migrant then the cost of food will go up. Imagine paying $12 a carton for blueberries instead of $5? That's a real possibility without cheap migrant workers.

The solution is to either nix minimum wage and let farmers hire Americans cheaply or let them source cheap labor from other places, like Mexico.

On top of all this Trump felt compelled to hold the country hostage over a stupid wall too. Not only do walls not work, but it also gets into eminent domain for people who own property along the border. Eminent domain is truly a terrible practice by the government and should in no way ever be legal.

 

[Danoff]

On top of all this Trump felt compelled to hold the country hostage over a stupid wall too. Not only do walls not work, but it also gets into eminent domain for people who own property along the border. Eminent domain is truly a terrible practice by the government and should in no way ever be legal.

I came up with a pseudo stop-gap for eminent domain, which is to pay double fair market value instead of fair market value. That would help ensure that the government didn't do so much of it, and make sure that people weren't getting screwed. Fair market value is a bit of a sham, since obviously those people are choosing not to sell at fair market value since it's not for sale. At least with double you don't already know that it's not enough.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

I came up with a pseudo stop-gap for eminent domain, which is to pay double fair market value instead of fair market value. That would help ensure that the government didn't do so much of it, and make sure that people weren't getting screwed. Fair market value is a bit of a sham, since obviously those people are choosing not to sell at fair market value since it's not for sale. At least with double you don't already know that it's not enough.

Even that isn't really adequate compensation. There should be assessed appreciation payment made every year for a period of time (call it 20 years) to the forfeiter.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Also, the way Trump is going about it is illegal. He can't implement tariffs whenever he feels like it, the Constitution doesn't give him that power.

Some time in 2016 I'd have agreed. If I've learnt anything in the last two years it's that Congress seems to have very little control over a President who wants to act unilaterally. You may well be right in this case, I just feel that if there's a way around doing-the-right-thing then Trump's thought of it. Or the system isn't built to cope with somebody who doesn't think and just does.

 

[Biggles]

The solution is to either nix minimum wage and let farmers hire Americans cheaply or let them source cheap labor from other places, like Mexico.

You think the problem is the "minimum wage"? I live in an area (in Canada) that is an important producer of agricultural produce: grapes, peaches, cherries & flowers/plants primarily. The labour is entirely provided by migrant workers - from Jamaica & Central America. They earn the Ontario minimum wage. They are employed because no Canadian workers are willing to do the work.

 

[mustafur]

From where I'm from, If no one is willing to do the work the pay rises till someone is willing to do it.

Trash collection here for example pays very highly, so does industrial cleaning, farm hand jobs can pay well depending on the area, generally if it's upnorth those jobs attract alot of Backpackers that are majority English/Irish or French, the decent supply of labour tends to lower the wage if they are closer to a town or city but there is big money to be made if your willing to work in remote areas with huge Farms.

 

[Joey D]

You think the problem is the "minimum wage"? I live in an area (in Canada) that is an important producer of agricultural produce: grapes, peaches, cherries & flowers/plants primarily. The labour is entirely provided by migrant workers - from Jamaica & Central America. They earn the Ontario minimum wage. They are employed because no Canadian workers are willing to do the work.

In the US, I think so.

Are there Americans who would pick produce? Absolutely, but probably most would want something like $10 plus time and a half for overtime. Even if they would work for less, in many states they can't work for less than $8 an hour.

A migrant worker will work for less and probably won't require time and a half for overtime. I'm not entirely sure what migrant workers get paid, but a commonly cited figure I see is $5 an hour plus a bed in a bunkhouse. Farmers also don't need to pay into insurance, worker's comp, etc. on migrant workers either.

Points can be made on either side as to whether this is right or wrong. But it seems migrant workers are OK with risking entering the country to make peanuts compared to an American worker so they are probably good with the setup or at least tolerant of it.

I agree, it's a tricky thing and it's hard to come up with the right answer on it.

 

[Danoff]

In the US, I think so.

Are there Americans who would pick produce? Absolutely, but probably most would want something like $10 plus time and a half for overtime. Even if they would work for less, in many states they can't work for less than $8 an hour.

A migrant worker will work for less and probably won't require time and a half for overtime. I'm not entirely sure what migrant workers get paid, but a commonly cited figure I see is $5 an hour plus a bed in a bunkhouse. Farmers also don't need to pay into insurance, worker's comp, etc. on migrant workers either.

Points can be made on either side as to whether this is right or wrong. But it seems migrant workers are OK with risking entering the country to make peanuts compared to an American worker so they are probably good with the setup or at least tolerant of it.

I agree, it's a tricky thing and it's hard to come up with the right answer on it.

Except that minimum wage is bad (see that wasn't so hard ). There are plenty of illegal immigrants at the home depots in California (hanging out in the parking lot looking for work). They won't work (usually) for less than like $15/hr. If you offer them less they'll wait for the next person who wants day labor.

They usually offer more than ditch digging though. You can get them to fix sprinklers, paint walls, and probably do concrete.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Except that minimum wage is bad (see that wasn't so hard ). There are plenty of illegal immigrants at the home depots in California (hanging out in the parking lot looking for work). They won't work (usually) for less than like $15/hr. If you offer them less they'll wait for the next person who wants day labor.

They usually offer more than ditch digging though. You can get them to fix sprinklers, paint walls, and probably do concrete.

In California? I'd be surprised if you could onboard them for less than $30/hr.

True story: Just completed a restroom renovation for a small museum. One restroom. 6 stalls. Pretty low-grade finishes. $500,000 construction cost.

 

[DDastardly00]

My Neighbor owns manufacturing business, they do fabrication work, machining and other services. He just got back from Bulgaria, I assume for Business but didn't ask, and I was talking to him about it yesterday. He said something interesting about the wages there. He said a Medical doctor makes about the equivalent of $800 USD a month. A nurse makes about $300. I asked why don't they try and come here because there is a great demand for Doctors and Nurses, and they would make so much more. He said the reason is because the Govt of Bulgaria makes is next to impossible to immigrate to the USA.

 

[Biggles]

In the US, I think so.

Are there Americans who would pick produce? Absolutely, but probably most would want something like $10 plus time and a half for overtime. Even if they would work for less, in many states they can't work for less than $8 an hour.

A migrant worker will work for less and probably won't require time and a half for overtime. I'm not entirely sure what migrant workers get paid, but a commonly cited figure I see is $5 an hour plus a bed in a bunkhouse. Farmers also don't need to pay into insurance, worker's comp, etc. on migrant workers either.

Points can be made on either side as to whether this is right or wrong. But it seems migrant workers are OK with risking entering the country to make peanuts compared to an American worker so they are probably good with the setup or at least tolerant of it.

I agree, it's a tricky thing and it's hard to come up with the right answer on it.

Migrant workers in Ontario get paid the mandatory $14/hr. Apparently there are no Canadians lining up to do this work for that amount. I suspect the situation is the same in the US. The problem is not that the mandated minimum wage is too high for citizens to be employed ... it's that the work is hard. Migrant workers will do it, because it's significantly more than they would earn at home for (presumably) similarly difficult work. This is not exactly the same as undocumented workers entering the US - they are "documented" & have some protections, however, they have few or no benefits & are separated from home & their families for many months. They return after the work is over for the season & are not given a path to citizenship even after working many seasons in Canada.

The point is: these people are hard-working individuals - real people - who deserve to be treated with respect. The farmers are completely reliant on them to have any chance of being solvent.

 

[Rallywagon]

real people.

I think this is something a lot of the "build the wall" people tend to ignore.

 

[Joey D]

Migrant workers in Ontario get paid the mandatory $14/hr. Apparently there are no Canadians lining up to do this work for that amount. I suspect the situation is the same in the US. The problem is not that the mandated minimum wage is too high for citizens to be employed ... it's that the work is hard. Migrant workers will do it, because it's significantly more than they would earn at home for (presumably) similarly difficult work. This is not exactly the same as undocumented workers entering the US - they are "documented" & have some protections, however, they have few or no benefits & are separated from home & their families for many months. They return after the work is over for the season & are not given a path to citizenship even after working many seasons in Canada.

The point is: these people are hard-working individuals - real people - who deserve to be treated with respect. The farmers are completely reliant on them to have any chance of being solvent.

Don't get me wrong, the way migrant workers in the US are treated can be pretty poor. I wholly think they should be allowed to come into the country to work without the fear of being arrested or beat up by a gang of rednecks who think they are some sort of civilian border patrol agents. I also don't think they should be detained in poorly constructed prisons either like what's happening to many of them now.

My point with the minimum wage though goes back to even if an American would do the job for less, the farmer legally can't pay them less. They also have to pay the workers overtime, keep up on worker's comp, etc. This is expensive.

Basically, I was saying if you want to solve illegal immigration you need to give farmers a way to hire cheap labor within the country. If you don't do that, then it gives migrant workers a ton of incentive to risk it in order to come here and work and there's an equal amount of incentive for the farmers to hire them.

Really, if it were up to me, migrant workers wouldn't need to risk anything. All they'd need to do is come to the border, check-in, and then go on about their way to work in the fields. Then at the end of the season, check back out and head back to their families.

 

[Danoff]

Really, if it were up to me, migrant workers wouldn't need to risk anything. All they'd need to do is come to the border, check-in, and then go on about their way to work in the fields. Then at the end of the season, check back out and head back to their families.

The only thing I'd change about this is to add "or stay if they want".

 

[Chrunch Houston]

Trump today. He speaks about crimes.

 

[Rallywagon]

Sorry, I just could not make it past the 3 minute mark. He has absolutely no substance or character. He can't actually speak on a matter, all he can seem to do is wag his &!@$ around like it's impressive and denigrate anyone against him.

 

[Danoff]

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

I'm not sure he could have expected the whole congress to attend, from what I understand, was a committee hearing, but the fact that these people even have to show up to ask is kind of sad.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

What does everyone think about the new livery for AF1?

While it's...fine, I guess, it seems rather generic. Like late 80s / early 90s action movie design, or even commercial airliner design from the same time period. The current design is so iconic, I don't really understand why it should be changed honestly. And if it is to be changed, why go with something so uninspiring? There are so many enormously talented designers in the US, surely a competition could have been produced some interesting results?

 

[jjaisli]

Regardless of what it looks like, I find it fascinating that he (apparently) personally designed the color scheme. Talk about priorities.

 

[TexRex]

Regardless of what it looks like, I find it fascinating that he (apparently) personally designed the color scheme. Talk about priorities.

He "did it for future presidents." Also, the other side of the fast food chain dine-in tray liner with the maze on it is usually completely blank.

 

[Rallywagon]

Regardless of what it looks like, I find it fascinating that he (apparently) personally designed the color scheme. Talk about priorities.

I figure he was doing a little doodle with crayons on the back of a kids place mat while waiting for his food at a restaurant. Once complete he shoves his picture up in the air triumphantly and declares "I made a plane. Its the best plane ever. Loser Biden wishes he could have a plane this great, someone take this and make mine look like it."
Sniped by Tex! Great minds think alike. Also. It's Trump, so im sure it's a safe and solid assumption to make.

 

[DK]

Regardless of what it looks like, I find it fascinating that he (apparently) personally designed the color scheme. Talk about priorities.

Nah, nowhere near gaudy enough.