America - The Official Thread

[TexRex]

Ironically, it turned out that neither candidate was particularly anti-war, as Trump showed with "fire and fury" and "my red button is a lot bigger than KJI's and it actually works". Of course, it was much more difficult to tell that before the election because Trump had no political background to reference like Clinton did. Clinton had decades of political performance to help people judge whether they approved of her judgement and actions, with Trump you were forced to believe what he said in campaign speeches.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/america-the-official-thread.54029/page-587#post-12496136

In fairness, I don't even believe a Clinton victory would have been secured in the event that the first counterfactual were...well...factual, not only due to the inherent division between supporters of the opposing parties, but because blemishes on a political career are arguably more damning than the lack of a political career, and Trump effectively had the innocence of a baby; pity he has the temperament of one as well.

As is typical, though, you've said it more eloquently than I did.

 

[Dotini]

Ironically, it turned out that neither candidate was particularly anti-war, as Trump showed with "fire and fury" and "my red button is a lot bigger than KJI's and it actually works". Of course, it was much more difficult to tell that before the election because Trump had no political background to reference like Clinton did. Clinton had decades of political performance to help people judge whether they approved of her judgement and actions, with Trump you were forced to believe what he said in campaign speeches.

I'm pretty sure that whoever you choose, the fact will remain that the US has a massive military, with a very large amount of very powerful people who are very invested in making sure that it stays that way. As the US doesn't really need much in the way of local military defence and is unlikely to in the near future, that means that it's pretty likely that there will be more foreign defensive actions. Or as the rest of us call them, wars.

One person at the top is going to have a very hard time changing an entire culture, especially when they need to use that culture to get elected in the first place.

Fair enough. But it must be admitted Trump, though employing rock apes like Bolton and Pompeo as Bad Cops and talking big and loud about his war power has never actually invaded another country...yet. And yeah, he did rough up Assad just a little and knocked down a few of his warehouses and chinning bars. The book is not yet written on Trump's antiwar bonafides.

 

[Danoff]

What impresses me about you Danoff, is that in the face of the depressingly predictable corruption of the US electoral system you remain unfailing optimistic!

The US system is so riddled with illogical, corrupt, outdated or just plain stupid inequities as to be a blot on the concept of rationality. It's true that systems in other countries are often similarly irrational & corrupt ... but they don't generally make the exalted claims that Americans make about their system.

Senate representation is undemocratic & illogical, the electoral college is undemocratic & illogical - extreme gerrymandering carried out by the party in power at the state level, is undemocratic & illogical. Changing these things, while theoretically possible under the Constitution, is extremely unlikely ever to happen. Those with a vested interest in maintaining the unfair status quo will never surrender their constitutional advantages ... & after all, the United States isn't a democracy, it's a "Constitutional Republic", which apparently makes it OK to ignore any glaringly obvious flaws.

Well Colorado just passed a legislative redistricting ballot initiative (as have other states). And of course there's the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact. When it comes to my optimism, it comes partly from just being around for a little while and taking note of the positive changes. People told me, many times, even during the Obama campaign, that a black man could never be elected president. And that he would be immediately assassinated if it were to happen. I've also been told that marijuana will never be legal, and gay marriage will never be recognized. A woman being elected president was also cast as highly doubtful... well one just took the popular vote.

There's good reason to be optimistic. You're talking about a nation that enslaved black people eventually electing one to lead it... twice.

 

[Dotini]

Those are both very common conditions and neither signify death or any major concern...

What do you make of Hillary's attempts to broach the UFO subject with the American people? Both her and Bill brought up the topic on several occasions, both in and out of office. Hillary was prepared to discuss it during the 2016 campaign, but reporters never or too seldom asked about it. Her campaign manager Podesta is a well-known enthusiast of the subject. Would it be considered a pathological problem for her to be president and at the same time espousing a belief or at least interest in UFOs?

 

[Imari]

Fair enough. But it must be admitted Trump, though employing rock apes like Bolton and Pompeo as Bad Cops and talking big and loud about his war power has never actually invaded another country...yet. And yeah, he did rough up Assad just a little and knocked down a few of his warehouses and chinning bars. The book is not yet written on Trump's antiwar bonafides.

No, but the actual opportunity to invade is somewhat of the luck of the draw, unless you want to just storm another country with no casus belli at all.

I'd have agreed with you up to the point that he tore up the Iran deal, something that so far has done the US no good at all other than making war with Iran more likely. I'm sure some people would consider that to be good, but for you and I and anyone else who would rather there wasn't another major war in the Middle East, it's not great.

I think at best you could class Trump as not solidly pro-war, but neither is he demonstrably anti-war. As expected from a populist, he'll do whatever is popular because he has no strong moral or intellectual stance on things himself.

The world police stuff I think we can probably write off, every US president has done that because it's an overarching US international policy. The "minor" drone strikes and retaliatory destruction that doesn't escalate into an actual open conflict is just the state of play, and has been since at least Bush Junior.

 

[PocketZeven]

Why are so many republicans so obsessed with the Clintons even now?

edit: added nuance

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Well Colorado just passed a legislative redistricting ballot initiative (as have other states). And of course there's the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact. When it comes to my optimism, it comes partly from just being around for a little while and taking note of the positive changes. People told me, many times, even during the Obama campaign, that a black man could never be elected president. And that he would be immediately assassinated if it were to happen. I've also been told that marijuana will never be legal, and gay marriage will never be recognized. A woman being elected president was also cast as highly doubtful... well one just took the popular vote.

There's good reason to be optimistic. You're talking about a nation that enslaved black people eventually electing one to lead it... twice.

I think you are talking in more general terms, but my observation is that progressive reform has a bit of an inevitability about it. All conservatives can, or try, to do, I've found, is to slow or delay the process. From my perspective, a lot of what has happened in the last few years (specifically, the Mitch McConnell-led era GOP) is a last and seemingly desperate attempt to hold onto power in the face of almost certain electoral annihilation (at least for this specific bloc of leadership). All of the gerrymandering and attempted power grabs....I don't think it will matter, eventually. The millennial block is going to wipe out the conservative boomer majority. It's just a matter of when. Look how many young and notable figures have appeared in the democratic party in the last few years (or even months). The only young & notable conservative figure (with any credible nationwide visibility and representative clout) I can think of is Dan Crenshaw, and that is probably mostly because of SNL.

 

[Danoff]

I think you are talking in more general terms, but my observation is that progressive reform has a bit of an inevitability about it. All conservatives can, or try, to do, I've found, is to slow or delay the process. From my perspective, a lot of what has happened in the last few years (specifically, the Mitch McConnell-led era GOP) is a last and seemingly desperate attempt to hold onto power in the face of almost certain electoral annihilation (at least for this specific bloc of leadership). All of the gerrymandering and attempted power grabs....I don't think it will matter, eventually. The millennial block is going to wipe out the conservative boomer majority. It's just a matter of when. Look how many young and notable figures have appeared in the democratic party in the last few years (or even months). The only young & notable conservative figure (with any credible nationwide visibility and representative clout) I can think of is Dan Crenshaw, and that is probably mostly because of SNL.

People become more conservative as they get older. The hippie generation certainly didn't suddenly change everything either. Certainly they had an impact, and I don't doubt that the millennia will continue to have an impact, but they're not going to be young, they'll be conservative old people.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

People become more conservative as they get older. The hippie generation certainly didn't suddenly change everything either. Certainly they had an impact, and I don't doubt that the millennia will continue to have an impact, but they're not going to be young, they'll be conservative old people.

I don't disagree, to a point. However, my point is more that the long term effect is the goal posts moving left. 100 years ago, the thought of societal acceptance of homosexuality (as an example) was reserved for radical progressives. Now that position is completely normal. There may be periodic instances of conservative gains, but history is largely one step right, two steps left. The very nature of progressivism is inevitability. Now sometimes (always?) that progressivism goes down dead-end roads.

 

[Danoff]

I don't disagree, to a point. However, my point is more that the long term effect is the goal posts moving left. 100 years ago, the thought of societal acceptance of homosexuality (as an example) was reserved for radical progressives. Now that position is completely normal. There may be periodic instances of conservative gains, but history is largely one step right, two steps left.

Socially it's moving left. Fiscally is a harder case to make. Certainly the US is moving left in both regards, but humanity in general is moving left socially but fiscally I think it might be pretty stable for a while now.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Socially it's moving left. Fiscally is a harder case to make. Certainly the US is moving left in both regards, but humanity in general is moving left socially but fiscally I think it might be pretty stable for a while now.

If we understand progressive to = freedom, then capitalism is essentially the end-state for fiscal progressivism. No? I guess this gets into semantics...

 

[TexRex]

100 years ago, the thought of societal acceptance of homosexuality (as an example) was reserved for radical progressives. Now that position is completely normal.

 

[PocketZeven]

People become more conservative as they get older. The hippie generation certainly didn't suddenly change everything either. Certainly they had an impact, and I don't doubt that the millennia will continue to have an impact, but they're not going to be young, they'll be conservative old people.

I cant stand todays music, I love "retro"gaming, I dont understand the popularity and the money around social media "influencers"... I guess I am getting more conservative by the day.

That said, in that logic, for my generation healthcare as a right, affordable schooling etc. should already be considered be a part of being conservative. Like how equal rights is for the baby boomer generation.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

I've probably lived in San Francisco for too long now.

(I don't know how many times I've had to explain to my GF [who's only lived in Ann Arbor, Michigan and San Francisco, CA within the USA] that the US is not nearly as universally progressive as her experience tells her it is )

 

[Biggles]

Well Colorado just passed a legislative redistricting ballot initiative (as have other states). And of course there's the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact. When it comes to my optimism, it comes partly from just being around for a little while and taking note of the positive changes. People told me, many times, even during the Obama campaign, that a black man could never be elected president. And that he would be immediately assassinated if it were to happen. I've also been told that marijuana will never be legal, and gay marriage will never be recognized. A woman being elected president was also cast as highly doubtful... well one just took the popular vote.

There's good reason to be optimistic. You're talking about a nation that enslaved black people eventually electing one to lead it... twice.

I've been around a lot longer than you. If you had told me 40 years ago that the Boomer generation would be (largely) responsible for electing someone like Donald Trump, I wouldn't have believed it possible.

There are two very different demographics I think of in relation to this: one is represented by my daughters, who are becoming adults in the era of Trump. I am appalled that they are entering into a world where Trumpism is an ascendent force. The other is represented by my neighbour. A WWII veteran, he was shot in the head in the last weeks of the war. He recovered & went on to have an exceptional career as a prominent academic & university administrator, & is a Companion of the Order of Canada. A life-long liberal (& Liberal), he is a remarkable man, who at 95 remains a man of exceptional intellect, completely engaged in the social & political issues of the day. I am appalled that it's possible that he may leave this world at a time when Trumpism ... aggressive nationalism, xenophobia, prejudice & fear is an ascendent force.

It's true that there has been a lot of progress over the last few decades, both in the US & globally. It's possible that Trumpism may prove to be an anomaly - a strange confluence of circumstances that led to the election of such an ignorant, boorish man. The next general election will be telling. I think it's possible that Trumpism will be repudiated by a majority of the American people & Trump & the Republicans will be dealt a crushing defeat ... but right now, it's too early to tell.

 

[Danoff]

I've been around a lot longer than you. If you had told me 40 years ago that the Boomer generation would be (largely) responsible for electing someone like Donald Trump, I wouldn't have believed it possible.

There are two very different demographics I think of in relation to this: one is represented by my daughters, who are becoming adults in the era of Trump. I am appalled that they are entering into a world where Trumpism is an ascendent force. The other is represented by my neighbour. A WWII veteran, he was shot in the head in the last weeks of the war. He recovered & went on to have an exceptional career as a prominent academic & university administrator, & is a Companion of the Order of Canada. A life-long liberal (& Liberal), he is a remarkable man, who at 95 remains a man of exceptional intellect, completely engaged in the social & political issues of the day. I am appalled that it's possible that he may leave this world at a time when Trumpism ... aggressive nationalism, xenophobia, prejudice & fear is an ascendent force.

It's true that there has been a lot of progress over the last few decades, both in the US & globally. It's possible that Trumpism may prove to be an anomaly - a strange confluence of circumstances that led to the election of such an ignorant, boorish man. The next general election will be telling. I think it's possible that Trumpism will be repudiated by a majority of the American people & Trump & the Republicans will be dealt a crushing defeat ... but right now, it's too early to tell.

Trump doesn't seem that different to me. I've been appalled by both parties for a very long time. I get that Trump is different, but it's not sudden or shocking to me.

 

[Imari]

Trump doesn't seem that different to me. I've been appalled by both parties for a very long time. I get that Trump is different, but it's not sudden or shocking to me.

I think he's an outlier in that he's a total political outsider, has limited personal charisma, appears to have poor understanding of government and important concepts for a president, and in some respects got to where he is because he's a rich TV star. All of which we've had before, just perhaps not all at once.

Policy-wise he's not really odd at all, it just the ways he phrases some of his stuff is shockingly un-politic. Which again, has happened before.

I don't think anyone would describe him as the embodiment of the "average" American president. But I definitely agree that he's not off the bell curve, and I don't see him as some sea change in US politics.

 

[PocketZeven]

Trump doesn't seem that different to me. I've been appalled by both parties for a very long time. I get that Trump is different, but it's not sudden or shocking to me.

What the democrat debates has shown me that one can attack eachother and stay civil. I have not seen a bully like trump in american politics in modern times. Namecalling, calling the media fake, inciting violence and going after private citizens. I dont know if this is actually polarising the US more then it used to, but I have never seen a modern US president act like he is on a realityshow. In my opinion that is his most differentiating trait.

I get that his followers translate this bullying as non-PC speech or "saying how it is", but while I think a President should have his own opinion, he should be respectfull to all people and especially the people he is commanding over.

 

[Swagger897]

I get that his followers translate this bullying as non-PC speech or "saying how it is", but while I think a President should have his own opinion, he should be respectfull to all people and especially the people he is commanding over.

In his eyes though that is the exact opposite of what he feels like is happening to him and his family.

Not exactly a fair game if only one side is "perceived" to be playing within the rules.

 

[Dotini]

... aggressive nationalism, xenophobia, prejudice & fear is an ascendent force.

Is this true? If so, shouldn't that be disquieting, even scary, particularly if it's increasing all around the world? I ask why, why our advanced, increasing liberal and democratic global civilization is facing this recrudescence just now? Is it because of our DNA? Is it a social construct?

 

[TenEightyOne]

EDIT: In other OTHER news... Ivanka Trump, presidential candidate 2024, a professorial politics friend of mine has a £10 bet with me that it will happen. Don't know why I took the bet, the more I think about it the more sense it makes.

The more I think about this the more I think I've lost a tenner. Bad ten.

Here's the next step in the 100-year Trump Dysentery Dynasty... Ivanka attempts to join in with the grown-ups. I'm sure the look on Christine Lagarde's face isn't one that can only be read by Europeans.

 

[PocketZeven]

In his eyes though that is the exact opposite of what he feels like is happening to him and his family.

Not exactly a fair game if only one side is "perceived" to be playing within the rules.

I wasnt talking about others speaking about the president. I am specifically calling Trump out about what he says and writes. Obama and Bush had more than enough people mocking an making fun of them too. I dont recall other presidents aggresively bullying, namecalling and making fun of individuals on a constant basis.

 

[ryzno]

I wasnt talking about others speaking about the president. I am specifically calling Trump out about what he says and writes. Obama and Bush had more than enough people mocking an making fun of them too. I dont recall other presidents aggresively bullying, namecalling and making fun of individuals on a constant basis.

They also didn't have a 2+ year FBI investigation against them. I already know what you're gonna say but it was a political attack, period.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Please delete, wrong thread.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

Andy Ngo, a journalist and videographer was beaten, milkshaked, and had his equipment stolen by antifa thugs.

Here is a video. There are others.

Warning: Language violence


Anti-fascist my ass.

 

[Swagger897]

Andy Gno, a journalist and videographer was beaten, milkshaked, and had his equipment stolen by antifa thugs.

Here is a video. There are others.

Warning: Language violence


Anti-fascist my ass.

Should've been concealed carrying.... Then you are allowed to say "****ing owned bitch"

 

[TexRex]

"This incident helps me to push my chosen narrative and I choose to turn a blind eye to any incident that doesn't because it might put me in a position to question whether my chosen narrative is actually worth pushing."

 

[Chrunch Houston]

Should've been concealed carrying.... Then you are allowed to say "****ing owned bitch"

This happened in Portland Oregon, I wonder what the laws are there?

I don't think you would see this sort of thing in Houston Texas.

two more victims

Spoiler: Warning: Language, Violence, Gore

The bald guy is going to have those scars for the rest of his life.

 

[Danoff]

What's the argument here? Violence is bad, mmmkay?

Seriously, who is condoning this?

 

[PocketZeven]

They also didn't have a 2+ year FBI investigation against them. I already know what you're gonna say but it was a political attack, period.

An investigation in him does not change the fact he bullies people. Trump was that way before he even was elected. During the primaries he was bullying the other candidates like it was highschool and remember how he bullied Obama during his presidency. There are other ways to criticise someone you disagree with, but bullying and spreading weird untrue rumors is not something a president should do.

edit: removed comment, that wasnt neccessary to mention