America - The Official Thread

[BobK]

“I knew you couldn’t have”. Well you are 100% wrong because I did check the link before responding. Or is this another quote I’m fabricating?
You start off by making assumptions about me, double down on it and now cry when I make an assumption about you?

My assumption wasn’t that you didn’t look. My assumption was that you looked beyond a title.

Sure, kid, whatever.

 

[PocketZeven]

I am posting this interesting documentary to continue the discussion of the wealth gap in the USA, without addressing white privilege or racism.

 

[Liquid]

So Trump has ordered American companies to stop doing business in China. And now declared Xi an enemy, together with FED chairman Powell. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/23/bad-sign-for-trade-talks-trump-calls-china-president-xi-enemy.html

My working assumption is that the trade war has deepened, taken on anaerobic intensity and will shortly be in proper crisis, with the survival of the Xi regime and current Chinese economy at stake, as well as that of Trump and the current US economy. The boys are now playing with their bigger marbles. If we were prone to worry, now would be the time.

Things are going to change.
"Longevity has its place. But I'm not concerned with that now."

- Martin Luther King Jr.​

It shouldn't be about what Tump cares about ... or his "cronies". It's about a system that is supposed to limit the power of the executive branch. Republicans appear to have abandoned any pretence of "conservative principles" & are just going along for the ride. Policy is coming out of the head of a vain, narcissistic man who can't be bothered to think deeply about the wider implications of his decisions & is under the delusion that trade wars - in fact, that everything about governing is "easy" for a "stable genius".

This is not going to end well.

It seems that there is an overlap or parallel between the Republican party in the USA and the Conservative party in the UK. Both have seemingly abandoned their stances of being "the party of business" this decade.

 

[BobK]

I am posting this interesting documentary to continue the discussion of the wealth gap in the USA, without addressing white privilege or racism.

Isn't the wealth gap pretty much a worldwide phenomenon? Why the focus on the US?

 

[PocketZeven]

Isn't the wealth gap pretty much a worldwide phenomenon? Why the focus on the US?

First, because this is the America thread, second most countries are battling this in their own way in varied levels of succes and third because the USA is because of its economic policies over the past few decades.

 

[mustafur]

So Basically Chile, Hong Kong and Singapore are the only "Advanced" Economies that are worse.

 

[PocketZeven]

So Basically Chile, Hong Kong and Singapore are the only "Advanced" Economies that are worse.

It doesnt say worse economy. The heat map just points out inequality in wealth. There could be other factors that would explain their inequality.

 

[mustafur]

It doesnt say worse economy. The heat map just points out inequality in wealth. There could be other factors that would explain their inequality.

Didn't say worse economy, I meant in inequality.

Thought it was Obvious sorry.

 

[PocketZeven]

Didn't say worse economy, I meant in inequality.

Thought it was Obvious sorry.

Ah ok. I perhaps read that wrong.

https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong...ap-hong-kongs-disparity-between-rich-and-poor

So I guess its worse then the USA, however HK is a small country though, with only 7-8 million citizens.

edit: What I meant is such a small population could easily be influenced by influx of super rich (from china?) and a large number of poor immigrants looking for a job.

 

[mustafur]

Ah ok. I perhaps read that wrong.

https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong...ap-hong-kongs-disparity-between-rich-and-poor

So I guess its worse then the USA, however HK is a small country though, with only 7-8 million citizens.

The Similarities are Obvious though, Singapore and Hong Kong have even more Capitalist Policies then the US and Chile has recently made wealth from a huge Mining boom that the educated class and Select Tycoons have made big off while the rural Population are basically in the same sceniaro before it happened.

 

[Dotini]

First, because this is the America thread, second most countries are battling this in their own way in varied levels of succes and third because the USA is because of its economic policies over the past few decades.

Does anyone really think the wealth gap is a problem? Why?
What causes it? How can what causes it be changed or fixed?

Permission granted to multiquote.

 

[Danoff]

First, because this is the America thread, second most countries are battling this in their own way in varied levels of succes and third because the USA is because of its economic policies over the past few decades.

It's not a pie, you don't get a "share". It doesn't matter whether the bottom 50% has a greater or lesser "share" of all income. That's a relative description, the pie grows (usually) and shrinks (rarely). What matters is actual standard of living, not how different the standard of living is from one person to the next.

 

[PocketZeven]

Does anyone really think the wealth gap is a problem? Why?
What causes it? How can what causes it be changed or fixed?

Permission granted to multiquote.

I worry about it, others probably dont.
Because of morals I guess.
The cause for the racial wealth gap has been discussed already in this thread.
Taxes, if you benefit more from the consumers, policies and laws in a country, then in my opinion you should contribute more to the country. And I am not against making a profit at all by the way.

edit:

It's not a pie, you don't get a "share". It doesn't matter whether the bottom 50% has a greater or lesser "share" of all income. That's a relative description, the pie grows (usually) and shrinks (rarely). What matters is actual standard of living, not how different the standard of living is from one person to the next.

It is just showing how wealth is distributed?!? I didnt suggest it was a Pie? The relevance is that there is little basis on " trickle down" economy. I am not criticising the standards of living, but the relative growth of inequality that is only growing bigger and bigger. I understand you may not care about that, but I think it isnt. That said these charts combined with the above tell a more detailed story about the standards of living and the wealth gap.:

 

[Dotini]

What matters is actual standard of living, not how different the standard of living is from one person to the next.

Agreed.
For reference: definition of "standard of living" from wikipedia:

An individual’s or a socioeconomic class’s standard of living is the level of wealth, comfort, material goods, and necessities available to them in a certain geographical area, usually a country. The standard of living includes factors such as income, quality and availability of employment, class disparity, poverty rate, quality and housing affordability, hours of work are required to purchase necessities, gross domestic product, inflation rate, amount of leisure time every year, affordable (or free) access to quality healthcare, quality and availability of education, life expectancy, occurrence of diseases, cost of goods and services, infrastructure, national economic growth, economic and political stability, freedom, environmental quality, climate and safety. The standard of living is closely related to quality of life.[1]

 

[PocketZeven]

Agreed.
For reference: definition of "standard of living" from wikipedia:

I guess its best to translate into the majority of people are working harder or just as harder, but their standards of living are growing disproportionally (or no growth at all) to the richest.

 

[Danoff]

I guess its best to translate into the majority of people are working harder or just as harder, but their standards of living are growing disproportionally (or no growth at all) to the richest.

How hard you work is not necessarily connected to standard of living. "Hard work" is often necessary but not sufficient.

It is just showing how wealth is distributed?!? I didnt suggest it was a Pie?

The implication that those charts are meaningful is tantamount to that misunderstanding.

The relevance is that there is little basis on " trickle down" economy.

Which is something not at all shown in those charts.

 

[PocketZeven]

How hard you work is not necessarily connected to standard of living. "Hard work" is often necessary but not sufficient.



The implication that those charts are meaningful is tantamount to that misunderstanding.



Which is something not at all shown in those charts.

Your income is immensely important to your standard of living including its purchasing power. These chart show that there is economic growth, but hardly any growth of purchasing power.

 

[Danoff]

Your income is immensely important to your standard of living including its purchasing power.

It's a factor. But so is deflation of goods. For example, perhaps (the equivalent of) $500 bought a TV 40 years ago, and $500 buys a TV today. Flat purchasing power. Increased standard of living, because the TV today is wildly better than it was. You can see at least that the picture is cloudy.

These chart show that there is economic growth, but hardly any growth of purchasing power.

Globalization. We talked about this before. In many respects, economic growth has become more of a globally driven entity, with some of the benefits mixed (weirdly) between workers in various parts of the world under various levels of governmental oppression.

It's not that surprising to me that you see the advent of the internet followed by a divergence of those two lines. It doesn't mean nobody is benefiting.

 

[PocketZeven]

It's a factor. But so is deflation of goods. For example, perhaps (the equivalent of) $500 bought a TV 40 years ago, and $500 buys a TV today. Flat purchasing power. Increased standard of living, because the TV today is wildly better than it was. You can see at least that the picture is cloudy.



Globalization. We talked about this before. In many respects, economic growth has become more of a globally driven entity, with some of the benefits mixed (weirdly) between workers in various parts of the world under various levels of governmental oppression.

It's not that surprising to me that you see the advent of the internet followed by a divergence of those two lines. It doesn't mean nobody is benefiting.

Globalization definately paid a role, however Western Europe has not experienced the same drastic growth in income inequality. What factors do play in your opinion in the USA being the ouliar compared to other established economies?

 

[Dotini]

Globalization definately paid a role, however Western Europe has not experienced the same drastic growth in income inequality. What factors do play in your opinion in the USA being the ouliar compared to other established economies?

Assorted possible factors in no particular order:
- Decline in unions other than governmental
- Reduction of higher paying factory and heavy industry jobs due to outsourcing
- Reduction of jobs due to technologies of automation, digital and computerization
- Change in the nature of jobs requiring more education and less manual labor
- Stagnation of wages accompanied by inflation of prices
- Large expansion of labor force to include women
- Women working for lower wages than men

 

[mustafur]

The Fall in Collective bargaining has been a major contributor, Neo Liberal Governments around the world have been pushing for decades to abolish it and it's been incredibly effective, combine that with an era where more companies have been merging into big Conglomerate entities and the Balance of Power has truely shifted in another direction.

Keynesian Monitary Policy when there is Economic trouble has also contributed in my view as well.

 

[Danoff]

Globalization definately paid a role, however Western Europe has not experienced the same drastic growth in income inequality. What factors do play in your opinion in the USA being the ouliar compared to other established economies?

We have a lot of the big global companies "based" here.

What I mean is... many of the people getting rich at the top of these big global companies are here.

 

[mustafur]

The High cost of Getting a Bachelor Degree which is equivalent to a High School Diploma 30 Years Ago in terms of Income Potential has probably helped as well.
So even if they do get it, they are Financially challenged while they pay it off Hurting purchasing power, it's also absurd that Tuition Fees in America stay with you, even if you go Bankrupt.

Bachelor Degrees should be taught at the Secondary Level imo to counter this.

 

[Dotini]

The rapidly evolving and advancing techno-economy has left traditional education lagging behind. No sooner do you complete a course of study in one technology, it becomes obsolete and yet another expensive course of studies is required. I exaggerate, but the idea is there.

 

[McLaren]

The High cost of Getting a Bachelor Degree which is equivalent to a High School Diploma 30 Years Ago in terms of Income Potential has probably helped as well.
So even if they do get it, they are Financially challenged while they pay it off Hurting purchasing power, it's also absurd that Tuition Fees in America stay with you, even if you go Bankrupt.

Bachelor Degrees should be taught at the Secondary Level imo to counter this.

Financial Planning is a course that should be mandatory at senior levels in high schools, that should cover everything money-related (loans, taxes, bills, 401Ks, etc.). If the way colleges & tuition fees won't change, at least better preparing young adults for the real world so that they may better understand what they could be agreeing to when taking out a school loan, could help influence them to research more. One of the biggest ways to cut big college fees down is to take Community College for 2 years and transfer over, as cc's typically have many benefits to get people in. But, you won't hear many bigger name colleges advocate that if you can't afford them, they'll just wager the large loan you take out will pay off in the end.

Trade schools can also pan out well if someone's goal is at least, a financially-relaxed life.

 

[mustafur]

Financial Planning is a course that should be mandatory at senior levels in high schools, that should cover everything money-related (loans, taxes, bills, 401Ks, etc.). If the way colleges & tuition fees won't change, at least better preparing young adults for the real world so that they may better understand what they could be agreeing to when taking out a school loan, could help influence them to research more. One of the biggest ways to cut big college fees down is to take Community College for 2 years and transfer over, as cc's typically have many benefits to get people in. But, you won't hear many bigger name colleges advocate that if you can't afford them, they'll just wager the large loan you take out will pay off in the end.

Trade schools can also pan out well if someone's goal is at least, a financially-relaxed life.

I agree but I think it would be better if it was Drip fed from Earlier, before the age of getting a Part time job.

 

[Dotini]

All's well that ends well. Will Trump declare a national emergency to take on emergency powers to thump China in the Trade War? Short of straitjacket, I don't see why not.
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/25/tru...war-i-could-declare-a-national-emergency.html

 

[mustafur]

French President Emmanuel Macron has Blindsided Trump and invited Irans Foreign Sec to the G7 Meeting hoping for a Peace Treaty.

Genius Move.

 

[Joey D]

Ahhh, the old French Switch-a-Roo.

All's well that ends well. Will Trump declare a national emergency to take on emergency powers to thump China in the Trade War? Short of straitjacket, I don't see why not.
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/25/tru...war-i-could-declare-a-national-emergency.html

I can't imagine that has any resemblance of being legal.

 

[Liquid]

I can't imagine that has any resemblance of being legal.

Historical precedent:

When the President does it, that means that it is not illegal.